Curse

Quantum Duck · May 09, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I don't consider it particularly crazy or even out of the box to use a second profession in a game that lets you have two. The only differences in most cases are maximum attribute level and interactions with the primary attribute. Considerations like energy regen and armor levels also come in with a few cases, but are equal across any caster pair.

When I decided I wanted a spear chucker hero, I made one of my rangers a /Paragon because Expertise and an extra arrow of regen makes spamming spear attacks extremely efficient to a greater extent than a few extra points in Spear Mastery would. When I wanted a shouter, I made it a Paragon primary for Leadership. This is the principle that makes Thumpers work as well.

As for /Monks healing, it depends on how they want to operate. You can't be as efficient at single target healing spam without Devine Favor, but you can be more efficient in other ways, such as access to better energy management elites in the Energy Storage or Spawning Power lines. If you've never seen a good Rt/Mo using Spawning Power energy management with Healing Prayers and Restoration, you really should.

It's simply a matter of finding useful synergies between the primary of one profession and the skills of another. There are millions of terrible builds that randomly combine two professions, but there are also plenty of thoughtful combinations that work far better than you might expect at first glance.

Alex the Great · May 09, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masseur

I run a Water Ele and not everyone thinks Eles should do anything but Fire Nuke,but they are pleasantly surprised when they see how well Water controls what the mobs are able to even do....

EARTH FTW

no joke.....fire ele's DIE. Whats with that?

no, I was bored so i changed my nuker to earth, monk to smiter, and ranger to beastmaster. They all work very well (smiter is ok but meh)

Sir Kilgore · May 09, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

For me the PUG is always a crap shoot. Even when you get someone with the supposedly "best" cookie cutter build for their primary and that mission there's no guarantee they know how to use it.

I've been in a group where there was a N/Me that loaded up on interrupts and did a fantastic job (surprisingly) due to the (pre-nerf) effect of Soul Reaping. The problem is you never know what you are getting. Mesmers and Assassins are still avoided like the plague by most PUGs, but every once in a while you find someone who really understands the class and is an amazing asset to the group.

The bottom line for me is it's just a game and I'm always favorably impressed with anyone who can use whatever build they bring effectively for the benefit of the whole group. You'll never get to see some of the impressive oddball stuff if you always insist on the "cookie cutter" build.

I get sick of seeing groups that advertise "GLF Spoil Victor Necro" or other such nonsense. There's more than one way to get through most missions and the widely accepted way isn't always the best. I henched/heroed through all of Nightfall several times without ever using Spoil Victor or any Lightbringer skills that many groups insist on. I was able to get Masters on most of them as well. But to be fair, we know the skillbars for the henchies and we can set up the skillbars for the heroes to compliment the team, so it's no big wonder that it works better than the average PUG.

So once again, if you have the time and patience I'd recommend giving some of these "outside the box" builds a chance. You'll be disappointed frequently, but you'll also see some impressive builds run by competent players once in a while.

mr_groovy · May 09, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Because Barrage is "outside-the-box."

A it's Ritualist / Ranger with barrage so not primary.
B u don't need any markmanship points, because it's just about getting as much targets possible to trigger splinter weapon. Markmanship is only an added bonus.

Jetdoc · May 09, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Anything works, but I want the best.

I believe that "outside the box" or "creative" builds are what keep the game dynamic. Think about many of the crazy builds that are staples today...

"What do you mean that you only have 55 health? You'll die in one hit? n00b!!!!"

"You're a WARRIOR!!!! Why the heck are you abandoning your weapon and shield by holding an item? Vengeful is for RITUALISTS!!!!"

"A hammer? A spear? What are you thinking? They gave you Marksmanship for a reason...if you're a ranger, act like one."

"Hahahaha - did you see that ranger spamming Offering of Blood and Vampiric Touch? Hahahaha!"

There are many, many more of these builds to come. Some will be nerfed, some will fail, but the creation of the builds is the true value in a dynamic game like this. Try not to be so cookiecutter when forming your next PuG or guild group and you might find a diamond in the rough.

bungusmaximus · May 09, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

A it's Ritualist / Ranger with barrage so not primary.
B u don't need any markmanship points, because it's just about getting as much targets possible to trigger splinter weapon. Markmanship is only an added bonus.

Hmm meeting at the least the req of your bow really helps a lot, its not such a big investment.

Sofonisba · May 09, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Interesting thread.

I remember, almost two years ago, my husband taking his first character, an e/mo, through the desert missions. It was also the first character from our guild to reach the desert, so none of us could help him out! In order to join a group for Thirsty River, he ended up being healer. It did not seem so unusual at the time.

I imagine this sort of build-making happens most prevalently in Prophecies, seeing as how you get all these tempting skills for your secondary all the way through. (*Conveniently forgets about the P/E she met casting meteor shower*)

TGgold · May 09, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I like using out of the box builds. I have an Axe Ritualist using Splinter Weapon, Triple Chop and Cyclone axe. It's pretty impressive AoE output.

I've played a support Ele/Mo before...sometimes there just aren't any monks around. (this was pre-heroes though...)

I've seen nuker-necros before. (pre SR nerf)

I don't mind if people use a unique and fun build as long as it's at least somewhat effective in PvE.

yeah_hi · May 09, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

It makes the game more interesting and fun for me to play with a more creative or experimental build, however I tend to keep it to guild/alliance events these days.

I don't particularly enjoy the cookie-cutter mentality of many (not all) PUGs, but I understand that rightly or wrongly it happens because most people are there to just get the job-at-hand done. I don't personally enjoy having to argue my corner or prove a point to strangers.

If other people have the chutzpah to PUG with an outside-the-box build, then kudos and very best of luck to them!

GoodEnoughForMe · May 10, 2007, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

There's a difference between "outside-the-box" and "just plain bad." 99% of the builds you see fall into the later catagory.

It's just apparent because PvE is already incredibly easy as it is.

Bingo. PVE in normal mod eis pretty forgiving, so as long as a build works well enough to contribute to the team in a positive manner, I don't have much of a problem with it.

I do have a problem with this build though, which I saw somebody running in THK.

OgYYgqUpqVZpLhp8KKGjLZFD4YOCwmB

R/E with attributes in 8 categories, numerous expensive elementalist skills, and attribute points in categories not even being used.

Coloneh · May 10, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

I have an opinion. people who come up with new "outside-the-bux" builds are creative and thats a good thing, people that continue to use the less-effective ones are noobs.

2 examples

1. I have a N/Rt Orders/BiP build that can rez itself and runs at 1 hp, and i love it to death. It works well, so i use it. (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Coloneh/PuG_Orders)

2. The other day i played in a group with a A/N using an jagged/wild/repeating strike with no dual attack, and 12 death magic, flesh golem, bone minions, taste of death, and death nova. It was a semi-decent looking idea on paper but worked terrible in practice yet he insisted on using it. thats the bad example.

martialis · May 10, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

I haven't been playing long and I could change my mind on this if a valid argument can be made for using a 2nd profession as primary.

Because he's a better healer than Alesia (the best or second-best healer available). Did you thank him for healing you?

What kind of answer do you want? Yes, a monk is a better monk than an elementalist, but the purpose of a build is to complete the mission, not to be awesome, or elite, or any other thing, and he used the best build he had available in the situation. Your group was right and you were wrong.

manitoba1073 · May 10, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

that was my out of the box build until you can guess what happened.

Skuld · May 10, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I believe that "outside the box" or "creative" builds are what keep the game dynamic. Think about many of the crazy builds that are staples today...

"What do you mean that you only have 55 health? You'll die in one hit? n00b!!!!"

"You're a WARRIOR!!!! Why the heck are you abandoning your weapon and shield by holding an item? Vengeful is for RITUALISTS!!!!"

"A hammer? A spear? What are you thinking? They gave you Marksmanship for a reason...if you're a ranger, act like one."

"Hahahaha - did you see that ranger spamming Offering of Blood and Vampiric Touch? Hahahaha!"

There are many, many more of these builds to come. Some will be nerfed, some will fail, but the creation of the builds is the true value in a dynamic game like this. Try not to be so cookiecutter when forming your next PuG or guild group and you might find a diamond in the rough.

yeh, but those are good; flare-spamming monks and stuff with no thought in isn't

meat shield · May 10, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

p/w
SCHYTHE

fear me!
focussed anger
four 1/2 atack skills

i win! hahahaha.......(this build actualy rockz)

Al Andaluz · May 11, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

For my necro, which is my main character, I try to run with a build for quick, fast damage... SS and reckless haste creates a great combination for dmg and team dmg reduction; however, in order to get through fights relatively fast, I run a curses nec with the following skill bar: ss, reckless hate, barbs (key skill here), mark of pain, desecrate enchants, defile enchants, and the last two spots are up to you. I typically carry 2 ranger heroes with either barrage or broadhead as elites (depends on situation), along with a MM hero. The more physical dmg you have, the better, due to barbs and mark of pain as your two main skills (+16dmg per hit by phys dmg due to barbs, +42 dmg to "adjacent foes" per hit of phys dmg due to Mark of Pain = 16+dmg to tarketted foe + 42dmg to all foes adjacent. With only 4 hits of phys dmg (2 by your ranger heroes, 2 by only 2 minions), you're dealing +168 dmg to all adjacent fows. Most times in Pve, you can time your agro relatively well, i.e when they're clustered = quick fight with this build. Target a central target, throw up MoP, followed by barbs, and you typically have yourself a quick fight. I admit that HM as made this build a bit more difficult for winning a quick fight; however, so long as you have 2 rangers with physical dmg, along with your minion army dealing physical dmg, barbs + mark of pain, you can easily deal a decent amount of dmg quickly, not to mention you'll be casting SS and reckless haste on most of the group. Again, this bar may be more diffucult with a hero/hench party in HM, but in regular mode, it destroys. I gained my Prot of Elona title with this basic layout, fyi, before hard mode existed. For a full hero/hench party, I'd take the following: 2 ranger heroes, 1 mm hero, the motivation hench, 2 "healer" hench, and one other hench to fill the grp... I recommend Devona (as bad as her AI is) just for the extra phys. dmg.

I'm not sure that this build qualifies as "out of the box," but I know that with a necro, it makes quick work of the NF campaign. Pre-regular mode, it took my necro 5 hours to make it through, and that was with many, MANY 10-20 min. breaks thoughout.

I hope this helps a bit.

bungusmaximus · May 11, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

It's not really out of the box, it's just good. I ran the same on my necro, but I added an IAS to the rangers and pets to make mark of pain go completely crazy. Curses necro's are more rare then mm's but they are overall very good for PvE. Curses are way overpowered anyway, the duration and spammability of necro hexes make PvE a walk in the park (PvP too but that's another story

).

clawofcrimson · May 11, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat shield

p/w
SCHYTHE

um...what?

I am all for creative builds that do well and create variety. And builds like the thumper, toucher, etc... actually do a better job of using the skills than if the primary/secondary were switched. These are great examples of creative secondary builds.

When it works ...great, but usually that is not the case. You will always run into the meteor shower warriors out there much more than the ones that actually work.

ArKaiN · May 13, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

I've been running a rt/p build with warmonger's weapon and spears in RA for a while. Its very, very good.

Div · May 13, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

It's pve. Most pve areas are designed so that even with a less-than-perfect build, it's still easy to breeze through.

The arcane echo-ss necro for example. He'd definitely do better by adding a few more skills to his build, but he didn't. Sure, it's creative and it can work, but why settle for something less?

The ele healer could actually be pretty good depending on his bar, but in 90% of the cases, a monk will easily outdo the ele in healing/protting capabilities. I've played with a lot of random builds, but there's a difference between a "stupid build" and a "random build".

A creative build is one that doesn't fit the stereotypes of what's commonly being played by that class (vigorous spirit barrage monk?). A stupid build is one that has less than 8 skills or are clearly misusing their skills (aka flare warrior).