Curse

TheRaven · May 09, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I have a legitimate question and I'd like to know what your opinions are on the subject. I posted this once before in a thread but the thread was shut down for other reasons before I got an answer.

First, I don't want to start a flame war. Answers like "that guy was a moron" or "you're a moron" or "PUGS are for losers" are just childish. If you can't reply with a decent viewpoint, then don't bother replying.

Ok, now here's the question. How do you feel about so called "creative builds"? Do they have a legitimate place in guild wars outside of the beginner areas or are the people running them just noobs or bad players.

Here's a situation I was in at Elona Reach. This is one of the 3 Crystal Desert missions and it's a fairly tough mission. Not on the Elite level, but not an easy no-brainer mission either. I saw a PUG group looking for more players so my Ranger joined them. We had 2 warriors, 2 Elementalists and me.

I suggested that we get a monk for the 6th and last slot when one of the Ele's spoke up and said he was a monk. I laughed and replied, "Uh, no you're an Elementalist". He then pinged his E/Mo skill bar. It was pure healing spells. I asked him to change to an Ele build but he insisted that he was a monk and not an Ele and that he does not play Eles.

This was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. No, scratch that. I've heard worst. Anyways, it sounded pretty far-fetched to me. I asked him why he didn't just create a monk and again asked him to switch to an Ele build. The rest of the folks in the group told me to shut up, I didn't know what I was talking about. They defended him and said that an Ele is far better at monking than a monk due to the Energy Storage attribute. (Hmm, there are definitely times when I wish my monk had 100 energy)

Well, I shut up because I was clearly outnumbered and besides I was too busy laughing to type. We grabbed a hero and started the mission. I must say the pseudo-monk was pretty good at his job and he surprised me with his abilities. We swept thru the mission with ease and achieved mission + bonus with lots of time left on the Ghostly's clock.

Personally, I've always been against using more than 1-2 skills from your 2nd profession while in difficult PvE or any PvP arena. I think any build is valid for lower end areas, (Yes my monk can solo The Great Northern Wall with Flare and 7 empty slots) or whenever you just wanna have fun with a build, but for competitive "gotta finish the mission or else!", stick with your primary. However, I haven't been playing long and I could change my mind on this if a valid argument can be made for using a 2nd profession as primary. (Something a bit better than "just shut up, he's a monk!")

Here's another situation I saw last week. I was doing the Consulate Docks mission with my warrior. I was bored and didn't really need the mission. Just trying to fill in my "masters" gaps. I joined a Necro and 1 other people. The rest were heros. The Necro pinged her bar which was:
Spiteful Spirit, Arcane Echo, empty slot, empty slot, empty slot, empty slot, empty slot, empty slot.

I laughed and said I thought she was missing a few skills. She said she didn't need any other skills and just wanted to try a creative build for a change. I didn't say anything since this is a low level mission and we started the mission. The necro was very good and we flew thru the mission easily.

Hikan Trilear · May 09, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

It's fun to go with crazy builds sometimes. I think alot of people need to let go of the "this class does this" mindset. Sometimes missions are boring but if you're doing them in an out-of-the-ordinary way they can be alot more fun.

SuperDave · May 09, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I can see the Ele monk thing working...sorta. Just for the energy. Tbh I hardly run out of energy with my monk and don't use a secondary prof for energy management. (GoLE etc). The only reason I would say it's a bad idea is that in some situations you really need that extra 4 attribute points. But I guess if it's played well then yeah, *unconvetional* builds do work. If used in the right hands, and from experience my honest opinion is that alot of PvE'rs should stick to the gimmicky, cookie-cutter, "wiki" builds.

I've seen some real shockers too. Meteor Shower necros, Water Trident+Fireball Rangers. When I started out my Warrior had Eruption and MS too. I soon realised how fataly stupid that was and created an Ele

I was in a GvG battle a few months ago. Everyone in my team went Necro primary, for a blood-spike, and had secondary profs like Ele (flagrunner) Monks (obviously to keep us alive). Needless to say, we won, we didn't play against a very good team. Against a organized guild we would've been pwnd.

So, what I'm really trying to say is: "sure, be daring....play whatever build you like.. it's just a game" but also be able to play something conventional..depending on what your team needs. And brace yourself for the name-calling, coz it's gonna happen

Skuld · May 09, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Anything works, but I want the best.

TurinPT · May 09, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

its not that unusual for an E to do some monk support, mostly when theire flag running. Now as the main healer... meh its pve everything works there, to a certain extent. I guess its ok as long as each team member takes care of himself.

ps: Elona reach is not that hard to run with a ranger, bonus included.

WildmouseX · May 09, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

there are alot of times when a primary goes better with the skills of another class - storage monks are a good example and are nothing new. a E/Mo + a 55 necro tank use to be all you needed to farm UW, way back when it was proficies only.

necro primaries also use to make good monks because of the built in energy managment and a couple of supliment blood skills (well for example); but A-nets 5 sec screw up has changed that for now.

msemers are a good choice for throwing necro curses, since the nerf makes soul reaping pointless anyway.

i personaly use a Ele primary as a sin E/A - they are the same armor class, and you have more flexibility with your build with alot of energy storage. - and in PvE no one expects the el to run up and stick a dagger into them, so you get that element of supprise.

Narcism · May 09, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

You can run outside-the-box builds in pve all the time, because it really doesn't matter much.

Just in PvP formats, I despise seeing them because I know the person behind that dark aura build or whatever the hell it is, doesn't know how to crunch numbers, hidden values and game concepts (and their effectiveness, max energy comes to mind) that come into play when determining if builds are viable.

And well in pve, they could use spiteful or life siphon, we'll probably still beat the mission.

Henchman · May 09, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

There are already creative builds: Some of them include Thumpers, Touchers, IWAY (Though they are annoying), 55HP, Healing Emo's and many more.
They may not be original anymore, but they are creative.

Eventually, creative builds that are good, turn into cookie-cutter builds, and therefore you no longer see them as creative.

LifeInfusion · May 09, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Um that's not creative. That's called not using your primary attribute for anything. All energy storage is, is a frontloaded cannon. Unless you run ether prodigy or get BiPed, there's no reason to go full heals.
The reason why an ele can heal as well as a monk in some cases, is when the monk only spams skills that don't benefit from divine favor (LoD, heal party, Aegis, healing Seed, Infuse health, Convert hexes, etc.).

BTW, that is not nearly as bad as:
-A Mes/E nuker with a healer hero with MENDING and healing breeze.
-A W/ who had all attack skills and a res
-A N/ with meteor shower
-A W/E with METEOR and FIREBALL.

There's thinking outside of the box, and there's thinking off your rocker.

Masseur · May 09, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

I run a Water Ele and not everyone thinks Eles should do anything but Fire Nuke,but they are pleasantly surprised when they see how well Water controls what the mobs are able to even do....

For the Most part, if you are Monk/xxx you are a MONK, period, end of discussion. You might have a 2nd prof that you can use some skills for energy management or whatever purpose, but using your 2nd prof as your primary is no where as effective as someone running that as their 1st.

Zinger314 · May 09, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

There's a difference between "outside-the-box" and "just plain bad." 99% of the builds you see fall into the later catagory.

It's just apparent because PvE is already incredibly easy as it is.

TheRaven · May 09, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

There are already creative builds: Some of them include Thumpers, Touchers, IWAY (Though they are annoying), 55HP, Healing Emo's and many more.

I really want to try that monk machine gun build. How's that working for ya?

Well, I guess healing ele's are more common than I thought. At that time though, I had only seen 1 and that was in the Zaishan Arena. We went in and our elementalist was healing everyone. When we lost he said he was gonna switch to a bonder build. I told him to stick with Ele builds. He was the absolute worst player I had ever seen. After failing with the bonding trick he said he was gonna play a mesmer instead. He switched to E/Me and filled his bar with all mesmer stuff. I left the group at that point before I said something I shouldn't.

I disagree that PvE is too easy. Yes some areas (most areas?) are very easy to complete with a competent group and yes, all PvE is easiesr than PvP play, but there are some PvE sections that require good planning and good builds to succeed.

I liked the all Necro GvG team idea. That sounds like a fun build to play. I remember once watching a Hall of Heroes match. One of the teams was entirely Mo/Me. They won too. Not a bad trick. The opposing team can't easily tell who the healers are and who the smiters are.

Series · May 09, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

That necro's build wasn't "Out of the Box". It was bad. He had 6 empty slots. Not even a res sig. I'm sure somewhere, out of all the skills he knows, he could have found 5+a res sig to round out the build.

makosi · May 09, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikan Trilear

It's fun to go with crazy builds sometimes. I think alot of people need to let go of the "this class does this" mindset.

QFT.

I remember the days of SF farming where:

Eles=Nukers
Warriors=Tanks
Monks=Bonder or healer
Necro=MM (and later SS)

Anything other than that and you were a 'noob'. If you were a mesmer in DWC you weren't worth knowing.

I always wanted to try EoE down there but it wasn't in the cooki-cutter builds.

pigdestroyer · May 09, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I really want to try that monk machine gun build. How's that working for ya?

Well, I guess healing ele's are more common than I thought. At that time though, I had only seen 1 and that was in the Zaishan Arena. We went in and our elementalist was healing everyone. When we lost he said he was gonna switch to a bonder build. I told him to stick with Ele builds. He was the absolute worst player I had ever seen. After failing with the bonding trick he said he was gonna play a mesmer instead. He switched to E/Me and filled his bar with all mesmer stuff. I left the group at that point before I said something I shouldn't.

I disagree that PvE is too easy. Yes some areas (most areas?) are very easy to complete with a competent group and yes, all PvE is easiesr than PvP play, but there are some PvE sections that require good planning and good builds to succeed.

I liked the all Necro GvG team idea. That sounds like a fun build to play. I remember once watching a Hall of Heroes match. One of the teams was entirely Mo/Me. They won too. Not a bad trick. The opposing team can't easily tell who the healers are and who the smiters are.

all monk/necro teams arent really what I would call "outside-the-box"...

ele healer? my gawd, close this thread asap.

TheRaven · May 09, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

That necro's build wasn't "Out of the Box". It was bad. He had 6 empty slots. Not even a res sig. I'm sure somewhere, out of all the skills he knows, he could have found 5+a res sig to round out the build.

Yeah, it was bad, but it got the job done. If we had been in Abaddon's Mouth I would have kicked her out of the group if she refused to change the build, but it was consulate docks. Who cares if it's bad.

Like I said earlier, My Mo/E completed the Wall with Flare only on her bar. Was it a bad build? Yeppers!! But it's all that was needed for the job.

Series · May 09, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Yeah, it was bad, but it got the job done. If we had been in Abaddon's Mouth I would have kicked her out of the group if she refused to change the build, but it was consulate docks. Who cares if it's bad.

Like I said earlier, My Mo/E completed the Wall with Flare only on her bar. Was it a bad build? Yeppers!! But it's all that was needed for the job.

Oh, I just skimmed over your post and didn't notice you were talking about beginner areas.

Halmyr · May 09, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Personaly, I aplaud people with fun and creative/crazy built.

The only thing I ask is that you be able to play.

I was doing Naphui quarter, and one of the ele we had was a geomancer, he use +armor enchament and crystal wave, but was very good or carefull with his built.
I aplauded him for his unique built, but I also wish he could improve it.

So to sum it up, play what you want, as long as you can play it well.

mr_groovy · May 09, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

rt/r barrage + splinter weapon == gg

Zinger314 · May 09, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

rt/r barrage + splinter weapon == gg

Because Barrage is "outside-the-box."