Curse

XvArchonvX · Mar 14, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Orison is like many skills in that it was a good skill back before newer skills were released, but now it is simply outclassed. It's major weakness, quite honestly, is the same as that of all healing prayers in that you are forced to recompensate for health already lost. This leaves your ally open to getting spiked before you can cast a spell. Protection can not only protect from a spike by buffing an ally before damage is dealt, but can also stop a much larger amount of damage taken per energy spent when skills like Prot Spirit and Shield of Absorbtion are used.

Even with HB, skills like Dwayna's Kiss, Words of Comfort, Ethereal Light and etc. are still better than Orison.

To put it simply, Orison is really just another skill that is a stepping stone to progress from as better skills become more available, just like Power Shot, Flare, and other early attained, but inferior skills in the game.

dgb · Mar 14, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

It does bugger all in healing, it has no protection, basically it fails at acheiving a role. If I want red bars, I'll use an efficient heal. If I want protection I'll use a protection spell. The only really viable use for it is as a vehicle for healer's boon, which is more about healer's boon than orison.

Ensign · Mar 14, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeones The Great

just that orison is spammable.

What is the situation in which you want to spam Orison?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeones The Great

sooo, say ur usin HB. and u have ethereal and kiss. 2 peeps get hit. u use ethereal on one. either u wait for recharge, or u waste kiss on an unhexed foe. ur saying thats OK?

If I'm playing Healer's Boon and two people get hit, I'm probably not going to do anything requiring energy. I'll probably start a Signet of Devotion on one of them because that's what the skill is there for. The best heals on my bar are a 300+ point heal with a 3/8 second cast, and a 126 point party-wide heal on a 1s cast. I'm not in any sort of hurry to top off every bit of damage that comes in.

The only times that I've ever wanted to put Orison on my bar is when I really needed the compression, and even then it's really only any good on a Healer's Boon bar. Even then though you're casting it as little as possible, you just needed some redundancy on your bar.

Peace,
-CxE

Lurid · Mar 14, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

With Healer's Boon Orison becomes a cheap, quick, effective spike heal. Otherwise if you must run a primarily Healing Prayers build, its faily a staple. IMHO there are better options, namely the Protective Prayers line with slight speccing into Healing.

Age · Mar 14, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

The other thing is when using Dwayna's Kiss when some is hexed or even not throw in veil and you heal more.It is still a good skill for Prophecey holders only and those who are to cheap to buy some new skills.

Melody Cross · Mar 14, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Hmm…

If you’re part of a backline then you have another monk—probably a prot monk—throwing protection spells on characters as they agro or take damage. Then Dwayna’s becomes really appealing.

If you’re running a monk/rit backline, then you probably should have gone prot to begin with and leave the heals to your partner.

This is an interesting discussion because heal over time is obviously more from Orison than other self heal spells for an HBoon. You have to cast twice as much to make it work that way, but it is capable of healing more than Ethereal does, so it’s a tossup for me which of those two skills would be a primary self-heal in an HB bar.

If you’re getting pressured solo (umm…say it’s a 5/3 split, you’re other monk is back in base addressing something) Orison might save you where Ethereal’s recharge and possible interrupt would hurt you. Healing touch is less utility than these two spells, while word is slow on recharge too.

What’s the better self heal? In PvE, probably Ethereal. Spike is less dangerous there so you can just throw it off if you take agro and otherwise stay in the backline, kite, get protted by your partner and toss it and word to repair the damage quickly and to max with just two spells.

In PvP though…you can’t really afford Heal Other and Dwayna’s—two spells that don’t self heal—on your bar. Monks take pressure in PvPs. They need a lot of their bar to be able to not just heal the team, but themselves.

Okay…little math test (owowowow). Lets say we have a GvG monk HBoon. He has a bar of

HBoon,
Heal Other
Signet of Rejuvination for energy
GoLE
Heal Party
Dismiss condi.
Holy Veil
And one of the three other self heals Healing Touch, Ethereal Light, or Orison. Our monk has 14 and 12 in Healing Prayers and Divine Favor, everything else is in prot for dismiss.

Ethereal; 95
Healing touch: 56
Orison: 66

Apply Boons +50% from Healer’s Boon

E: 142.5, lets say 143
Ht: 84
O: 99

Add 38 for DF at 12

E: 181
Ht: 160 (double DF)
O: 137

Over a period of one minute, these spells can cast:

E: around 11 times
Ht: around 11 times
O: around 24 times

So…the heal over time for Ethereal in one minute of spam on recycle is 1991. Healing Touch is 1760. And orison is…3288. So for over twice as much energy, you get almost twice as much healing as Healing touch and over ¾ the healing of Ethereal if you can actually spam all of them for a minute without stopping to regen.

But that’s not quite right either. Lets give us 2 heal parties every 30 seconds using our GoLE. Four heal parties takes out 12 seconds form our spam. 2 GoLEs takes another 2 seconds. And we’re spamming here, ignoring energy right now, so we’re also casting…lets use a sig. 1 second for Signet of rejuvenation, because I like that on a HBoon with all the interrupt rangers out there right now. Casting that on recharge, that’s another 6 or so seconds of time we’re not casting our self heal. We’re not facing a spike team, so we didn’t need heal other and the other team is condi pressure so we let the RC monk take all the heat (poor RC…)

Anyway, that’s 20 seconds where we won’t be casting our primary self heal.

E: 7.2 lets say 8 casts
Ht: 7.2 lets say 8 casts
O: 16 casts

The healing over time is:

E:1448
Ht: 1280
O: 2192

Cost for Ethereal and Healing Touch is 40 energy. Cost for Orison is 80. You get almost twice as much from Orison as you do from healing touch. It’s starting to look bad for Alesia’s favorite skill. You get a little over a quarter the amount of HP from orison as you do from Ethereal…but for twice the price. Can a monk actually afford to do that with orison?

Lets add in energy. With HBoon, you have three pips of energy for 3 energy every second. Over 60 seconds, we’ve cast

10 energy for GoLes
0 for those free heal parties
signets, 6 also for free and
between 40 to 80 self heal spells for a total 50, 90 total energy over a 60 second period of time.

Lets give this monk 40 energy from her staff and armor. HBoon takes one pip of energy away for 3 pips; 3 energy every 3 seconds according to guildwiki. So in a period of 60 seconds, this monk gets 60 energy from regen instead of the normal 80. With full energy at the start of spamming, that’s a total energy pool of 100 energy. So yes, a monk can afford to spam, for one minute, Orison, GoLE, signets, and any of the three self heals we gave her.

I'm going to ignore all my hard work keeping cast times straight for a minute now.

She would have a 60 extra energy over time from Ethereal or healing touch, allowing for 4 more heal Parties (113x8 players is a heal per cast of 942; total heal over time of 3767) or 6 heal others (293 six times for 1758). For everything that’s costing energy, that’s a range of 3206-5216 heal points over time for Ethereal Light or 3038-5047 for healing touch.

She would have a 20 energy remaining if she carried and spammed Orison. That’s one more heal party or 2 heal others…a range of 2778 to 3134. Then she is out of energy.

I think the winner is Ethereal Light for pure healing. For only a little less heal over time, you can get a lot of healing done, cast a heal party and a few heal others, and still have some energy left over. You could choose not to cast Orison on recharge, reserving it to about half its time and probably get it about as efficient as healing touch, but it just not able to keep up with Ethereal in terms of red bars going up.

If the monk casts only 10 times with orison it reaches the middle range between Ht and Ethereal; that’s a 1370 HP for 50 energy with a reserve of 50 for 3 heal parties or 5 heal others ranging extra heals at 2826 to 1465; a maximum range of 2835 to 4196.

That’s respectable heal over time to single targets with your self target healing spell for Orison. If it only cast 8 times, the same as Ethereal or Healing Touch, its 1096 with a maximum range from extra heal parties or heal others of 2854 to 4843. Orison is not effected by easily interrupts though, so enchant strip spells will not hurt you as much as they would if you were carrying Ethereal. Heal touch, on the other hand, shows a boost to healing if you can't keep you HB up.

Okay. I think I did that right. I hope this helps expand the discussion. I’m still not really sold on any of them. I like them all equally, which is to say I like Reversal of Fortune most

GGs

Xeones The Great · Mar 14, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

hmm, wow. you see, whenever i heal, i always have kiss on my bar. i absolutely agree that kiss beats orison, but most healers already have kiss on their bar. now comes orison, fastest recharging heal in the game. next to it is kiss, which most already have. next to it (as a pure heal) is either words of comfort or ethereal light. i tend to not bring words of comfort because i bring dismiss always. ethereal may be the best PvE heal in the game, but it has a 5-second recharge.

again, the only reason orison was made is to have a constant cheap heal that literally never runs out, so u can count on it to be ur main heal. please, try and keep prot outa this.

@melody: thx 4 all the math. =P

now i see why orison sucks. its because everyone is against healing prayers in general. "Prot Prayers FTW." and if i start a thread on that, im gonna get flamed llike hell. mmm, maybe they should delete healing prayers and leave that to the rits.

Div · Mar 14, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I don't know what you're talking about when you say people claim that orison sucks. I sometimes (not often, but depending on how I feel) take orison in my LoD/Infuse or HB bar in HA, and I haven't gotten any complaints from any of the r9/10+ groups I go with. Maybe they're just confident I know what I'm doing, I dunno. The only people who are probably crazy demanding are those r3 scrubs that think they know everything and tell you stuff they think is true.

And regarding that long post with all the math and numbers...
Maybe orison isn't as good on paper with all those calculations, but monking is not all about the math. It's about how the person using those skills feel about it. But yes, I agree there are much better alternatives to orison.

crosshatch123 · Mar 14, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Ranks have nothing to do with it.... offcourse a rank 3 can know what he's talking about. Not all r3's are noobs, dude r3's can own rank 9+.

But besides that, what holy allready said, you cant bring monking into maths. Its not like your going to spam orison every single time it recharges. You have to use the other skills on that bar of yours aswell. But I stick to my point that Restorers > Heal monks.

If u have a heal monk, you have to spam skills more often imo. Because when you see a party member taking heavy damage, like +/- 90/100 dps(maybe a bit on the high side, but I dont really care xD). you cant keep up with orison. With HB you have a nice large heal, but you'll run out of energy faster if u want to keep that party member taking heavy damage + your other party members alive. If u use a Prot build + [skill]gift of health[/skill], u'll be saving more energy. Lets take the same example, a party member is taking heavy dmg (again 90/100 dps) and he/she has 500 health, u prot that person. Thats 10 energy, more then orison. But for +/- 22 sec that party member can only lose 50 health from a single attack. GoH heals for 96 health at only 9 heal prayers(without the health gain from DF). In this way you dont have to spam away 5e every 2 seconds. And you dont have to keep using your skills on that target alone. You can leave your eyes of of him for a few sec to heal some other players, even if there only at 80% health.

Don't know if I made my point right xD, dont know how to explain some things.

Btw, this is just my opinion offcourse, just wanted to tell what I think about healing in general.

Grammar · Mar 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeones The Great

...also, healers dont suck. maybe prot is better, but a 8-ppl party needs some sort of healing. but lets not get too off-topic.

Sorry, need to to go a little off-topic on that one for a sec.

I was monking in an end-game PUG the other day, when the second monk asked if I was heal or prot. When I said prot, he said "Great, so I have to heal the whole party by myself?!?"

What some people don't understand is that not only are prot bars better than healing bars for protection, but prot bars are also better than healing bars for healing.
ZB, RoF, GoH, and Dismiss Condition will out-heal any healing bar in the game, and then there's the prot stuff on top of that (Prot Spirit, SoA, etc.).
You may be tempted to say, "Hey what about a Healers Boon bar!?" Sorry, but a Healers Boon bar with 1 less pip of energy and complete lack of damage mitigation cannot keep up over the long haul. When thing get crazy, the Healers Boon guy, like any other healing prayers guy, needs to go into super-spam mode to keep up, which you can only keep up for so long before you run out of energy. Especially on 3 pips of energy.

To be honest with you, the only time I'm ok with Healers Boon monks is when there is already a solid prot monk in the party. And even then, I think I'd still prefer an LoD monk, or maybe even a Heal Party Ele or Resto Rit.

But if you still wand to run Healer's Boon, I'll leave you with some advice.
1. Ethereal Light, Dwayna's Kiss, and Heal Party are your best heals
2. Use Vigorous Spirit -> Dwayna's Kiss combo
3. Other than Heal Party (and your rez), bring exactly zero 10 energy spells
4. Bring condition and hex removal
5. Bring a signet (Devotion or Rejuv.) and use it as often as possible
6. Try like hell to squeeze some points into Protection and take Prot Spirit (THE must-have monk skill)

crosshatch123 · Mar 14, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Sorry, need to to go a little off-topic on that one for a sec.

I was monking in an end-game PUG the other day, when the second monk asked if I was heal or prot. When I said prot, he said "Great, so I have to heal the whole party by myself?!?"

What some people don't understand is that not only are prot bars better than healing bars for protection, but prot bars are also better than healing bars for healing.
ZB, RoF, GoH, and Dismiss Condition will out-heal any healing bar in the game, and then there's the prot stuff on top of that (Prot Spirit, SoA, etc.).
You may be tempted to say, "Hey what about a Healers Boon bar!?" Sorry, but a Healers Boon bar with 1 less pip of energy and complete lack of damage mitigation cannot keep up over the long haul. When thing get crazy, the Healers Boon guy, like any other healing prayers guy, needs to go into super-spam mode to keep up, which you can only keep up for so long before you run out of energy. Especially on 3 pips of energy.
To be honest with you, the only time I'm ok with Healers Boon monks is when there is already a solid prot monk in the party. And even then, I think I'd still prefer an LoD monk, or maybe even a Heal Party Ele or Resto Rit.

But if you still wand to run Healer's Boon, I'll leave you with some advice.
1. Ethereal Light, Dwayna's Kiss, and Heal Party are your best heals
2. Use Vigorous Spirit -> Dwayna's Kiss combo
3. Other than Heal Party (and your rez), bring exactly zero 10 energy spells
4. Bring condition and hex removal
5. Bring a signet (Devotion or Rejuv.) and use it as often as possible
6. Try like hell to squeeze some points into Protection and take Prot Spirit (THE must-have monk skill)

exactly my point

Melody Cross · Mar 14, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

But…I wasn’t trying to show anything like that at all! The point I thought I made was that orison may make a better single target heal under pressure, but the overall healing to a group is less than other healing prayers skills. Healing Prayers could still use a little buff for the healing they do per cast, but they don’t suck! HBoons and Holy Haste made them really fast so they can react to all this direct damage we get now. And Infuse, LoD, and Gift of Health are really good spells too! And Healer’s Coventant! HCsmiters are naughty! They can spam just as long as the old AoE smiters, but they actually get to PICK their TARGET! Healing prayers don’t suck. You take that back…

ss1986v2 · Mar 14, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeones The Great

again, the only reason orison was made is to have a constant cheap heal that literally never runs out, so u can count on it to be ur main heal. please, try and keep prot outa this.

and again, those arent good things. if you are spamming orison on recharge, you are doing something wrong. if you are casting any skills in between your kiss and ethereal (GoLE, HP, dismiss, ect) then the extra second or two wont make a difference. if you are just standing there waiting for a skill to recharge so you can cast it, again, you are doing something wrong.

as for the math about spamming orison, yes it can pump out more heals over time, but only if you have unlimited energy. spamming just orisons over and over, you can keep it up for about 1 minute before you energy hits zero. with ethereal, if you spam it on recharge (again, dont know why you want to) you cant run out of energy (your natural regen outweighs the cost). so if we dont consider energy, over a short period of time, and ignore all the other skills on your bar, yes orisons will heal for more.

now if you care about your energy, look at things over the long run, and actually use all the skills on your bar, orison loses out to ethereal.

ender6 · Mar 14, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

the issue here is that you shouldnt be spamming orison on recharge, which is what you seem to want to do. if you have to spam orison every 2 seconds on an ally to keep them alive, your energy would be better used either waiting and dropping a more powerful heal, or using some kind of protection on them. and who says you can only have one low cost, fast recharge heal on your bar? put two or three and use the others while one is recharging.

also, dont discount the conditional heals just because they are conditional. dwaynas only heals for 9 less hp at 12 healing. just 9hp! you are discounting it because it heals for 9 less hp, but ignore that fact that it can heal for so much more without much difficulty. the same with words of comfort. just 9 hp less, with the potential to heal for almost twice as much.

QFT -- this sums up the entire argument for me.

I don't believe anyone is saying that orison sucks, simply there are better things to put onto your skill bar and better ways to utilize what you put onto your skillbar.

Barrett · Mar 14, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

lol glimmer of light u shud be saying sucks its a bit more heal then orison of healing what a waste of an elite slot

olly123 · Mar 14, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

what melody said is very true, i too kmy time and read/understood his/her post and u can see orsion is fine for a quick fire off heal, but in the long run Ethereal is best in the long run. orsion manily sucks cos of its lak of a heal, 77 on 16 healing ( that might be 17 cant remember) witch is no where near enougth to heal a party memeber, maybe when u where facing elave 8 char and where being hit for 10 dam per 10 secons it was fine but in high end its nor worth it, kiss will heal for better every time, there r so many Wamos out there that it heals for over 100 for me most times, without DF there. its jsut not worth it

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I don't know what you're talking about when you say people claim that orison sucks. I sometimes (not often, but depending on how I feel) take orison in my LoD/Infuse or HB bar in HA, and I haven't gotten any complaints from any of the r9/10+ groups I go with. Maybe they're just confident I know what I'm doing, I dunno. The only people who are probably crazy demanding are those r3 scrubs that think they know everything and tell you stuff they think is true.

first f most r9 teams where xiway's and dont know one end of a sword form the other. orsion isnt even need in HA anymore with an LoD infuse LOD recharging all the tiem it covers orsiorn for all the party for only 5e. and with a ZB/Restor or Divert ur sure to b doing fine.

pingu666 · Mar 14, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

in pve ive found the damage comes alone really quick, specialy in the high end areas, so u wont carry just 1 heal spell to stab every x seconds. ull suck :P

pvp, ull have way more spikes, but the damage isnt boosted by being lvl 20+ or whatever. stuff like them claws in nf that pop outa the ground do nasty nasty damage for example.

orison is nice, because its a heal thatll always work, be it yourself, or others, no half range crap and no easily interupted.

its also the benchmark heal/monk spell

ss1986v2 · Mar 14, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

its also the benchmark heal/monk spell

and it sets that benchmark rather low.

Xeones The Great · Mar 14, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

ROFL. thanks all for the explanation. please close the thread mods, i am clear now.

dgb · Mar 14, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

in pve ive found the damage comes alone really quick, specialy in the high end areas, so u wont carry just 1 heal spell to stab every x seconds. ull suck :P

pvp, ull have way more spikes, but the damage isnt boosted by being lvl 20+ or whatever. stuff like them claws in nf that pop outa the ground do nasty nasty damage for example.

orison is nice, because its a heal thatll always work, be it yourself, or others, no half range crap and no easily interupted.

its also the benchmark heal/monk spell

Uh, RoF says hello and tells you that you don't need to heal so much. Honestly, if torment claws are even hitting you with torment slash there is something wrong, but if you get to that point a RoF on someones bar will do far more than an orison ever will.

If the damage is coming really quick you should either be protting, using a big heal (heal other) or the party wide big heal (heal party/LoD), depending on the exact circumstances. Getting low heal/energy and heal/time out of orison isn't going to save you, infact orison actually puts you in a worse position because you sink so much time into running it.