Curse

clawofcrimson · Feb 27, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

because thats just too conditional. it should read like this:

merciless spear , 5e, 2recharge, unblockable deep woundage for 20 seconds

/end sarcasm

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 04, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

To bring things back into perspective, the use of GfTE and Vicious Attack is how I inflict DWs with my Paragon.Yet, as said previously, it takes a high command and spear to achieve an effective percentage to achieve the DW on a consistant basis.

The thought of a gash type of spear skill would be nice, but until then,this or Cruel Spear are the better of the grouping within Spear mastery,imo. However, the use of so many types of conditions to achieve what warriors,sins, and mesmers do with one or 2 skills is just disgusting. If you want to make DW for paragons conditional, at least one should make it where it's a condition that can be met in timely and efficeint manner.

lorinton · Mar 04, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Deep wound is just the tip of the iceberg. How about bleeding, poison, blind, cripple, slow, knock down, health degeneration, strip enchantments, prevent enchantments, block, prevent block or reduce damage? Want to do a bunch of those with your assassin, no problem. The bigger paragon problem for me is lack of options. Hopefully that improves in the next chapter.

As far as unconditional deep wound options go, you still have to avoid a block or dodge so isn't really unconditional.

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 04, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

I agree that options lack with the paragon, but in all honesty the sin does every trick in the book to kill its opponent, which is exactly what it's supposed to do.
The sin should also have an instant daze/death move called "Kitchen Sink". Then it would be complete.

Akimb0 · Mar 04, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Deep wound is one of the most effective conditions you can place on someone anyway, making it conditional ( easy conditions mostly as well. ) just stops it being too unbalanced.

( However the masses of other weak/useless skills is blegh -_- more spear skills please! )

Feed Me Faction · Mar 04, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

another attempt to keep the para from being 'overpowered' I guess

So True. Sometimes I wonder why A-net even made Paragons. They got nerfed once so I was like " It's not that bad", then it happened again and well..yeah. High energy cost for chants/shouts, shorter durations, conditional Deep Wound skills, what's next? Armor Reduction?

Akimb0 · Mar 06, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me Faction

So True. Sometimes I wonder why A-net even made Paragons. They got nerfed once so I was like " It's not that bad", then it happened again and well..yeah. High energy cost for chants/shouts, shorter durations, conditional Deep Wound skills, what's next? Armor Reduction?

I just wish I'd had a chance to play them before their skills were made so.....poo.

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 17, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

My Paragon builds are adrenaline based, so energy is hardly a problem until a mesmer or a necro uses the right hex/spell.

However, the spear attacks are energy based as well,but with the right chants and shouts, the energy pool is very effective when used with a decent leadership att and some radiant/attunement rune usage.

As for the skills, they're not bad, but they could be better.

The Ernada · Mar 28, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me Faction

So True. Sometimes I wonder why A-net even made Paragons. They got nerfed once so I was like " It's not that bad", then it happened again and well..yeah. High energy cost for chants/shouts, shorter durations, conditional Deep Wound skills, what's next? Armor Reduction?

I snicker when I see posts like these. Paragons and their skills are far better than you think.

As for DW, I don't find a problem applying it with GFTE and FTW. I think a Gash type spear skill would be too good though. Baseline spear damage itself is already good plus it's ranged. Some of the spear skills still need some work but that's true of any weapon line.

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 31, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

No one said that the skill line was bad, but it could be better, starting with a less conditional deep wound. Paragons are hurling spears, but can't cause a deep wound on par with a warrior? It just isn't very logical in a practical sense of thinking.

GFTE is what I use to make VA more useful,but that still take chance and a high command investment to get it done. Just too much hoop jumping to do it for such a character class.

clawofcrimson · Apr 04, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

unconditional DW on a ranged attacker would be overpowered....definitely.

and practically speaking why is [card]cruel spear[/card] not logical... if the target is moving he wouldn't get stuck with the spear in the right place...

there is plenty of 'easy to get to' situations where you can apply DW

~target is below 50% hp
~target is not moving
~you inflict a critical hit. (which can be enhanced with other skills like GFTE)
~the next 'time' you inflict a critical hit.
~if the foe has more health than you.

not sure why anyone would complain about this...

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 08, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

The complaint I have is that DW skills for paragons takes some serious hoop jumping to get it done. Cruel Spear may take a more doable circumstance for it to apply a DW, but as an elite, I think it should'nt take that to make a deep wound. Compare it to Eviscerate, and see my point.

[skill=big]Eviscerate[/skill]

Classic axe warrior elite. Oldie but a goodie.

[skill=big]Cruel Spear[/skill]

LOL, seems I picked the right skills to compare. They are identical, save for the way the deep wound is applied. Adrenaline build up is needed for both, and the fact is that they are identical down to the letter,save the fact that Eviscerate is unconditional and Cruel Spear is conditional. Though the condition is easily met due to the fact that a person only needs to stand still, this could be the Eviscerate of the Spear Mastery line, and bring the line into the forefront. Nothing overpowering about suspending the "non movement" factor. It's an elite, so that would justify it being so.

Of course, some will say that would overpower the paragon, but the fact of the matter is that it wouldn't make it overpowered, but on par with its warrior counterpart.

The Ernada · Apr 08, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

But you keep forgetting that spears are ranged. That's a big difference. And that has a nice advantage over melee especially since spears are almost sword/axe attack speed with almost bow damage.

I would SO abuse a non conditional DP spear skill....

zling · Apr 23, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

yeah the range is a big plus but also a none neglectable minus. melee attacks cant be dodged while ranged(both bow and spear) can.
and cruel spear is pretty equal to evis, a bit more in damage, ranged and easily met conditioned deep wound...

and for all you guys saying paragorns are useless, take a good look at the class before you say so... you say that because of the energizing finale nerf which was 1 broken skill that got completely reworked... paragorns are a very good class if you actually bother playing it...

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

bottom line is...

ranged weapons have a distinct advantage to begin with, so for a paragon to even GET a DW, i think its seriously only fair that it has such a measly conditional cost of say (cruel).... standing still.. lol. thats not hard at all to achieve, cost less than say your comparison evis, and is raaaaanged! isnt that badass enough

? paragons have some of the best DW in the game imho, but again, thats just me (plus i LOVE paragons :P). CRUEL SPIKE FTW!

p.s.
imagine a ranger with an UNCONDITIONAL dw....

interrupts...
daze...
good stances/evasion...
...and a deep wound on call on target?

yowzas.. they're already a rough class to deal with.. think about that! (i bet ya'll a billion bucks they get some for of dw in GWEN

heheehe, that'll be nuts till they nerf it to death!)

Shadowlion · May 10, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

For PVE it's usually enough with Cruel spear/slayer's spear or merciless

Sun Fired Blank · May 11, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

"Go For The Eyes!" @ Command: 10 + Vicious Attack @ Spear Mastery: 11 = DW: 75%. These are very easy numbers to achieve, and there is a bit of potential to increase them further.

Consider if you had an attack skill that read:

Adrenaline: 4

"If this attack skill hits, you strike for +16 damage, results in a critical hit, and you inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 12 seconds."

That is roughly the power of "Go For The Eyes!" plus Vicious Attack.

Here is what I've tested in PvP:

[skill]"You're All Alone!"[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Barbed Spear[/skill][skill]Vicious Attack[/skill][skill]"Go For The Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

FakePC · May 11, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

i saw a 5 para 3 monk team crush people in HA one night they were spamming " go for the eyes" +"vicous attack" all night long

i started using that combo after that and noticed how fast me and the heroes and henchies slaughuter mobs

now i use it pvp

with a furious spear like prayer of the forgetten its almost at will

this is a really fun class to play try it out

Darkpower Alchemist · May 23, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I've seem to have started something good, and I like the responses I have garnered so far. Once again, the point was that Spears should give a DW on par with a warrior. Not saying that they don't give a solid DW, but just the fact that it isn't as consistent as say the Sever Artery+Gash combo(if this hits, you are DW'd.Period)

While every spear attack has some condition to meet. The thought of a spear not hitting the right place to cause a DW is interesting, but If it hit you in the arm and not the chest, it still had the chance to lodge in your arm or hit a major artery. If it hit you in your leg, it should cripple you. Yet, when you try to apply a DW, you might get one, or you might not?

[skill=card]Screaming Shot[/skill], causes Bleeding as long as you hit the enemy while they are in your aggro circle. Spear attacks have the range of a short bow(If I've heard correctly), and thus, have no such range. If they are closer, then a deep wound is more possible, due to the heft of the weapon and the range of the weapon.

A bow should have a KD skill,in my opinion, since an arrow can put a man on his rump rather easily. Arcing Shot should do just that, but it sucks and is rather useless currently. However, that should be based on range and not just unconditional. A close up arrow shot can surely in RL cause a deep wound. A spear,in comparison, should cause a DW at its current range rather easily.

The thought of a spear spike isn't unheard of or untested. Making a DW less conditional wouldn't change that. Also, take into account that DW isn't stackable if 5 Paragons/Warriors/Sins/Mesmers or whoever can cause a DW if they all have the same skill. The reason for similar skills on the different skill bars is obviously to avoid failure of the application. Multiple spear attacks can cause heavy pressure under effective IAS useage and consistency, but that goes for all such attack plans.

LifeInfusion · Jun 02, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I'm surprised I miss this thread. Probably because I rarely go to the paragon forum. The reason why there is conditional deep wound is so that you cannot deep wound at range.

GfTE + Vicious attack is close to unconditional, but requires an additional skill and isn't guaranteed. 80ish% still isn't 100%.

Never mind that the combo isn't even requiring an elite.