Curse

Trader of Secrets · Jun 04, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

So, I have never made a ranger before. I would like to know which type of bow do I use in common PvE situations. And also wat is the best mod for that type of bow in that situation.

Amy Awien · Jun 04, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

For most of the interrupt and condition work a recurve bow is best. For longer range pulling a flat or longbow and for higher DPS (faster firing) a flat or shortbow.

Look for a max damage bow with a +15% while health > 50% base, good mods are bowgrips of defense or fortitude, and a variety of strings; vampiric (keep another bow to switch to), condition durations increasing strings and for some applications an elemental string.

Longasc · Jun 04, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I think Amy pretty much said it all.

So let's expand a bit.
How about Hornbows. They are somehow my least favorite. The inbuilt 10% AP does not make up for the inherently slower RoF.

I once did some math, they almost require you to have Tiger's Fury up permanently have a decent fire speed. Then you can use them to add some damage to Barrage/Pet builds, but even then... I would still rather use a Flatbow.

How about you.

ichigo_panty · Jun 04, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

It would be best to use flatbow for b.p build.

Short bow range is short and recurve/horn are decent where long/flat are long.

Destinyy · Jun 04, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

I use a wide range of bows, 4 weapon slots is not enough for my Ranger... GRRRR

Vampiric Flatbow - Used to barraging with SoFW
Zealous Flatbow - Used for regular play with RTW, Interrupting too
Sundering Hornbow - Used for regular play and barraging (Actually my most used bow, Musraat Hornbow, you should see the numbers when the sundering mod hits!!!)
Zealous Recurve - Mainly used for heavy interrupt builds
Zealous Shortbow - Used for up close and in your face play with Ignite Arrows
Sundering Shortbow - As above but when wanting extra damage...

So yeah, what bow you use is really dependant on build/purpose. One thing I can say (And this is personal preference) is STAY AWAY from longbows, they are slow and cumbersom. You can almost always use a any of the other bows to greater effect...

Hope this helps...

Riot Narita · Jun 04, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

To clarify: The reason you use a Recurve bow for interrupting is because the flight time is short (the flight arc is low). This means you are more likely to interrupt succesfully.

Flatbows are great because they have the longest range (same as a longbow, it lets you stay uout of trouble)... but it also has the fastest refire rate (same as a shortbow -> maximum damage output). However a flatbow's flight time is terrible (high arc) so ideally you use Read the Wind or Favourable Winds to compensate - otherwise you will miss often when firing from long range.

15% extra damage when your health is over 50% is probably the most popular property for a bow, but I tend to go with +5 energy with a lot of my builds so I can spam my skills for longer.

A Shortbow is handy to carry for skills like Screaming Shot... if your enemy is in shortbow range, they are pretty much guaranteed to be in earshot.

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I see little use for a Hornbow outside of a ranger spike; I have nine bows on my ranger, but my Hornbow is on a mule with my candycane bow.

Flatbows under RTW or FW are the best DPS and don't suffer accuracy issues; the alternative is often to go with a Longbow/Shortbow combination if you want the option of range and the DPS up close.

Recurves are a nice bow if you are interrupting or otherwise doing utility stuff (cripshot for example, which is generally used on moving targets); they're too much of a compromise for a real DPS-type build though. If you are going to own one bow Recurve is a decent choice, but it's probably better to make room for a few more and have some flexibility.

Personally, my bows consist largely of recurves and flatbows - I have a longbow/shortbow pair as well, but of the 9 bows I carry with me 4 are recurves and 3 are flatbows, with a shortbow and a longbow rounding it out.

I do like 15>50 bows, but I also use 15% in stance bows (and my hammer is 15% in stance too, since I got it back when thumpers used Tiger's Fury and it works well with a Lightning Reflex hammer build too). Not big on +5 energy bows, only own one.

XvArchonvX · Jun 04, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

The build I use the most in PvE is the Burning Arrow build that is like what most guilds use in GvG:
http://www.pvxbuilds.com/index.php?t...g_Arrow_Ranger

I do change the sig for a hard rez and occaisionally switch Savage Shot for an attack skill, but the basics of the build are essentially the same. For this reason, I often run with a poisonous +15%^50 recurve of fortitude ([wiki]Nundak's Recurve[/wiki]).

When I run other builds, I generally go with:

Vampiric +15% stance Shortbow - Choking Gas + Practiced Stance build

Vampiric Flatbow, Zealous Flatbow, and Sundering Longbow (basically this is just something to switch to when FW is not up or when not attacking) - Barrage pet build

Silencing energy +5 recurve ([wiki]Saushali's Recurve Bow[/wiki]) and Silencing Shortbow - Broadhead Arrow build

Fiery +15% enchanted Longbow of Enchanting - Conjure Flame barrage builds. I really don't use this build much, but if it's there if I ever want to use it for any reason, lol.

Vampiric Hornbow - Flail + Barrage Builds. I honestly don't use this much since I don't tend to use Barrage outside of b/p groups, but if I run a general barrage build in PvE, this is usually how I go.

All bows use the +15^50 damage mod and a fortitude grip unless specified otherwise. When using a trapping or beastmastery builds I will use either a +energy staff or a +5 energy spear with a shield, depending on how much damage I expect to take and how much energy I'll need for my build.

I believe that's everything, but I may have forgotten something. I'll double check the next time I log on.

TedTheDead · Jun 04, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Hornbows are fantastic if you are using a Quickshot/Needling Shot build. Other than that you have to have an IAS on your bar or you are short changing your damage.

For clarification, Hornbows as stated have an inherit 10% armor penetration at the cost of the slowest rate of fire for bows. However unlike most skills, Needling Shot and Quickshot have a "cast time", meaning they are fired on their own timer not the normal attack interval timer. This allows you to effectively lower the hornbows attack rate from 2.7 seconds per arrow down to around 1 second per arrow (for the shots made with the skills), all with an inherit 10% armor penetration. Put a sundering mod on it with a +15% damage inscription and you have some nice hits

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

Hornbows are fantastic if you are using a Quickshot/Needling Shot build. Other than that you have to have an IAS on your bar or you are short changing your damage.

You are shortchanging the damage of any bow to not have an IAS skill. Adding 50% more damage from a 33% speed IAS to a Hornbow to compare it to other bows is silly - you have to consider that the other bows can also have IAS. A shortbow or flatbow does 22% more damage per second than a Hornbow does, though to be fair, the Longbow/recurve is pretty close in performance to a Hornbow before preparations, only about 1.4% better. And recall that RtW, FW, vamp mods, Order of Pain, Glass Arrows and so on all do better with higher speed bows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

For clarification, Hornbows as stated have an inherit 10% armor penetration at the cost of the slowest rate of fire for bows. However unlike most skills, Needling Shot and Quickshot have a "cast time", meaning they are fired on their own timer not the normal attack interval timer. This allows you to effectively lower the hornbows attack rate from 2.7 seconds per arrow down to around 1 second per arrow (for the shots made with the skills), all with an inherit 10% armor penetration. Put a sundering mod on it with a +15% damage inscription and you have some nice hits

To be clear about Hornbows, they have the highest damage per arrow, but the lowest damage over time of any bow. The reson they are used in a ranger spike setup is that it allows 3 or 4 arrow hits in a very short time, which should be as big as possible.

As to the myth of the fixed firing speed of barrage, needling shot and quickshot, it's exactly that - a myth. The speed difference is less important, true, but it still matters.

My testing shows that a Hornbow gets 22 barrages a minute, a longbow/recurve gets 24 barrages and a flatbow/shortbow gets 26 barrages a minute - even allowing for the 10% AP the faster bows outperform the hornbow, though not by as wide a margin as they normally do.

Needling Shot's damage is armour ignoring, so a Sundering Hornbow makes no difference. If anything you want a Vampiric Flatbow with Read the Wind.

Quickshot I haven't specifically tested, but I recall Vallen Frostweaver having done some work on the subject and indicating that there too the "aftercast" of the bows varied, and the Horrnbow still underperformed. I'll re-create the testing today I think.

To be clear: Hornbows are a lousy PvE bow. They are outperformed in virtually every task by pretty much any other bow type. Unless you are doing a ranger spike setup where you only care about the damage from two rapidly sequenced attack skills you don't want a Hornbow.

SnipiousMax · Jun 04, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

My testing shows that a Hornbow gets 22 barrages a minute, a longbow/recurve gets 24 barrages and a flatbow/shortbow gets 26 barrages a minute - even allowing for the 10% AP the faster bows outperform the hornbow, though not by as wide a margin as they normally do.

Have you run similar tests taking into consideration use of an IAS? It was Jeno awhile back that ran the numbers on a barrage/hornbow/IAS combo, and it actually dealt more damage than the other bows. Regardless the difference wasn't huge, but it was a difference. I'd think you'd find similar results when you look at IAS's and the 'fixed time' shots.

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Have you run similar tests taking into consideration use of an IAS? It was Jeno awhile back that ran the numbers on a barrage/hornbow/IAS combo, and it actually dealt more damage than the other bows. Regardless the difference wasn't huge, but it was a difference. I'd think you'd find similar results when you look at IAS's and the 'fixed time' shots.

Jenosavel tends to be pretty careful, but yes, I ran Tiger's Fury and Barrage, and Horn bow went from 22 barrages a minute to 24, not enough to catch up with the flatbow.

What I'll have to do though is look at the way some preps/conjures work though as well - conjures deal armour affected damage, and I'm unclear as to whether that damage is affected by the 10% AP of the hornbow. If it is there could be a logic to using the hornbow for some of these. My hunch is that the difference in speed will not be made up for in the large majority of cases; at 16 marksmanship for example, the average damage of the hornbow is 45 per arrow versus an average of 40 for the other bows, but that extra damage doesn't make up for the difference in firing rate - vs AL60. If I crank the AL to 100 the Hornbow creeps ahead in base damage, getting 24 damage per arrow versus the 20 that other bows are scoring, and putting it slightly ahead of the flatbow, but then the barrage bonus needs to be looked at, and since it's armour ignoring all that matters is attack speed, and the flatbow is back in the lead - in fact, the damage bonus is so large compared to the base damage at higher AL levels that the AP bonus isn't even a factor, only the number of arrows delivered is.

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Ok, I did some work on this over naptime, thanks to my buddy Tmak for being a pincushion for me on some tests

I'll post in a new thread so as not to get too lost. I have to take back my complete dislike of the Hornbow, it can be a slight edge in some setups.

SnipiousMax · Jun 04, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Jenosavel tends to be pretty careful....

Is she still around? I've not heard anything out of her in awhile.

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Sadly Jenosavel is very busy with a new job and such (though it's very fortunate for her, she got a huge break with a job in her field); she did log in about a week ago, but I wasn't on when she was.

TedTheDead · Jun 04, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I was making general points, there is no need to go out of your way to fine comb a post and come up with irrelavant add-ons to make my post look stupid. It goes without saying an IAS helps any bow or any weapon for the matter. But not not using one has a significant effect on your average damage over time when using a hornbow compared to say a flatbow or shortbow. This point was not necessary.

And the fact that the damage from needling shot is constant does not negate the fact that the damage from Quckshot is not so a sundering hornbow used to alternate quickshot and needling shot is extremely effective, better than say a shortbow. Its not a myth try it yourself.

Amy Awien · Jun 04, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

My testing shows that a Hornbow gets 22 barrages a minute, a longbow/recurve gets 24 barrages and a flatbow/shortbow gets 26 barrages a minute - even allowing for the 10% AP the faster bows outperform the hornbow, though not by as wide a margin as they normally do.

AL works out exponentially and 10% AP versus 80 AL should be about +15% in damage, +11% against 60 AL and +19% vs 100AL, while 26/22 works out to +18% and 24/22 to +9%. If I got this right, for Barrage and under IAS, flatbow > hornbow > longbow. For base damage that is.

Different damage decreasing effects work out differently. A hornbow with more damage per packet should fare better against damage absorption.

Quote:

... no need to go out of your way to fine comb a post and ... to make my post look stupid

I don't think that was the intention, your post just gave rise to a more in depth analysis. Numbers can just be fun, sorry 'bout that, it's just our interest in the matter.

Epinephrine · Jun 04, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

I was making general points, there is no need to go out of your way to fine comb a post and come up with irrelavant add-ons to make my post look stupid.

Wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

It goes without saying an IAS helps any bow or any weapon for the matter.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

But not not using one has a significant effect on your average damage over time when using a hornbow compared to say a flatbow or shortbow. This point was not necessary.

Bold is my emphasis. This is what I object to. 50% increase in DPS is the same for all bows under 33% IAS. It's the same proportional increase, so by definition it can't matter more for the horn bow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheDead

And the fact that the damage from needling shot is constant does not negate the fact that the damage from Quckshot is not so a sundering hornbow used to alternate quickshot and needling shot is extremely effective, better than say a shortbow. Its not a myth try it yourself.

I did, I am pretty thorough about testing things; you are in fact correct, as I posted in the thread on bow types and fixed attack skills. In this one intance a horn bow can perform slightly better, getting between 2 and 2.5 more DPS than other bows; using just Quck Shot or Just Needling Shot or Barrage however it performs worse. So I was worng about that part, and I apologise if I gave offense - you'll note that I did however go out the same day and run tests on bows for 2 hours to back up my points - at least I'mnot half-assed about it

Sundering though? Vampiric is the bow to use for damage, and given the rate of fire you get with this method you'd do well with vamp - you do much more damage than the sundering adds. Sundering is the safety mod, good for a weapon swap or for heroes, but I don't think it's the one to use for damage.