Curse

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 14, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

In Guild Wars, 3 weapons are defined as "warrior" weapons. The hammer,the axe, and the sword. Of these 3 weapons, the sword is looked at as being the more basic of the 3, due to its narrow damage and spike capability that the sword is considered to possess.

This supposed "limitation" gives the impression of inferiority in the case of spike damage in PvP compared to the axe. Yet, what the sword excels at is steady, consistant, rock solid aggression. The use of the sword ingame has many real life niuances that are loosely grasped by those that favor the sword.

The Basics:

First, one most know the basics of melee combat to excel at it. Those basics principals are as follows:

1) Physical attacks must be fast and consistant, in order to apply pressure and to press the end result of combat. The Kill!

2) The swordsman must realize what his place on the field of battle represents. When you clash with another, you must not hesitate. Cut to the quick. Flow through your enemies defenses, or die. The sword is not the threat, but he/she who wields it.

3) Field awareness is very important. Find your target, and commit to your purpose. Switch targets if need be, but realize usually your original target will shadow you until you end the threat it represents. The monk you didn't kill, will always seem close by, healing your new target. The elementalist that blinded you, will continue to harrass and impede your success. The mesmer that survives your attack will make your life difficult from just out of reach. Try your best to finish what you start.

4) The things that work against you, also work for you. Snare, blind, hex, spell, blade, or stance. Nothing is off limits. In combat, it's not the pretty warrior that is successful or feared, but the effective one.

Sword Build Application:

Enough of the romancing of the blade, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

First, let's talk about the proper use of an IAS(Increased Attack Speed) in comparison to the swordsman. I was involved in a conversation with an alliance member and we brought a topic to the forefront. The use of...

[skill=big]Gash[/skill]

He wanted to make an argument that gash wasn't needed in a sword build that used this elite...

[skill=big]Dragon Slash[/skill]

In his argument, he said that with the use of Dragon Slash with [skill=card]Flail[/skill] or [skill=card]Frenzy[/skill] that you would be dealing so much damage that you wouldn't need to cause a deep wound. I totally disagree. In order to achieve your goal as a melee threat, one must realize that a simple thing as a deep wound cuts 20% of your target's Health, thus taking roughly 100 hp from your target in one attack. This is the openning of a spike attack. The drop of HP from the DW allows for a major dip in the target's livelyhood.

For example:

[skill=card]Flail[/skill][skill=card]Sever Artery[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Enraging Charge[/skill]

This Dragon Slash attacker will give a deep wound within 4 strikes, due to the use of Enraging Charge to power Flail. SA+ Gash will cause the DW and setup for DS. By the second DS, the 4 lead skills will all power up from a dragon slash.

The build he recommended was:

[skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Standing Slash[/skill][skill=card]Silverwing Slash[/skill][skill=card]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Sprint[/skill]

Though, theoretically, the above build deals more damage through pure power, yet, the comparison is akin to a swift killer to a blundering barbarian.
The latter build uses frenzy and Sprint, while the previous uses Flail and Enraging. First, the Frenzy warrior takes double damage unless he cancels the stance with sprint, and is dependent on frenzy to gather adrenaline, while Flail and Enraging both garner adrenaline from both stances, though the swordsman moves 33% slower with Flail activated. This would be a choice of preference, though I personally believe the previous build would be superior overall.

Another sword attack that seems to be underappreciated is [skill=card]Hundred Blades[/skill], which paired with the proper build would make this formerly undesired elite into a stellar attack skill.

[skill=card]Flail[/skill][skill=card]Sever Artery[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Hundred Blades[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Enraging Charge[/skill][skill=card]Conjure Lightning[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill]

More set for AB or PvE, this build is perfect for maximizing the damage output of a swordsman. With Enraging building adrenaline from the opening, hundred blades is then used to complete the needed adrenaline build to activate Flail. The rest is self explanitory.

This type of comparison is mostly known by more experienced players, but I have noticed that newer players seem to leave Gash behind, and are quite adamant about its uselessness. Yet, these same warriors also die in PvP at my hands, so I apply my knowledge. Now i wish to help others.

Advanced Applications:

The need for a DW is well documented and known, yet the use of Gash isn't your only option. Sticking to the melee theme, I'll bring an assassin skill to the forefront as an alternative to Gash.

[skill=big]Augury of Death[/skill]

Augury is certainly a solid alternative to Gash, for it doesn't have to be applied through any other reason but by the nature of the swordsman's will. Strike down upon your foe, never bleeding him/her, and they will be caught unaware when the augury is cast. Better still is to bleed, deep wound, then continue the steady pressure of you attacks. All will fall when put under the fast response of AoD when applied. No escape is certain until the hex is removed. In AB and RA, the chances of hex removal are less likely due to the unorthodox manner of team construction in these arenas of combat. Even to apply a cover hex may be desired to make this hex stick. This hex, in particular, is a great setup for what isn't immediately recognized by most players. A swordsman's spike!

[skill=card]Augury of Death[/skill][skill=card]Flail[/skill][skill=card]Standing Slash[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Hundred Blades[/skill][skill=card]Riposte[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Enraging Charge[/skill]

This build also brings into play defense for the swordsman in the use of the skill Riposte. The definition of a riposte is roughly a blocking motion that uses the blade to strike at the limb/body of the attacker. This is best known in Fencing(Spanish/English/Olympic) as a more advanced tactic, and thus is included in the tactic line.

It's counterpart, [skill=card]Deadly Riposte[/skill],has the bonus of also causing bleeding. Though the consensus thought behind the application of the ripostes is that the players who use them are lacking in skill, that can be considered nothing but an obvious pressure tactic to get people to not use the most viable skill applications. The fact is that any melee attacker that strikes against you will be blocked and damaged when it is used, and thus, is a great counter to melee attacks. Though still able to be bypassed by means of hexes and some unblockable skills/attacks, the ripostes will still do their intended damage.

I totally encourage experimenting with sword skills and tactic/strength stances in order to improve your swordsmanship proficeincy. Other alternatives for sword elites are [skill=card]Quivering Blade[/skill] and [skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill] whose own applications can very well make for interesting sword combinations.

Learn the tricks of your foes in order to better defend yourself. Assassins like to use [skill=card]Expose defenses[/skill] in order to get by ripostes and defensive stances while using [skill=card]Critical Defenses[/skill] to escape your blade. Removing a hex may prove to be more beneficial than one may realize when dealing with such crafty opponents, as well as stripping enchantments, so look into those type of skills in order to defend yourself even better.

I have covered the basics of the application of good swordsmanship, and I hope that some get some insight into its further applications by reading this thread. Good luck out there, for if you cross swords with me, I won't hesitate, and neither should you!

GG

Tab · Jul 14, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Why don't you mention Final Thrust.
Why do you suggest using Augury of Death instead of Sever Gash.
Why do you suggest using Ripostes.
Why did you post a build with Sun & Moon and Hundred Blades with no Conjure.
Why did you suggest using Hundred Blades at all.

'Good swordsmanship' is not about being a warrior with hex removal and enchantment removal. 'Good swordsmanship' is about taking out your target and staying alive. Leave the hex and enchantment removal to the other members of your team, and focus on doing what a warrior is supposed to do.
And Sever Gash is far better than Augury on a warrior. Augury hexes them, which both gives away your spike and gives their monks a chance to remove it. It also shadowsteps you to them in the middle of your spike, which interrupts whatever skill you were using.
If you're going to make a detailed post about good swordsmanship, atleast make a mention of the most common sword build there is.
[skill]crippling slash[/skill][skill]gash[/skill][skill]final thrust[/skill][skill]bull's strike[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]rush[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
With Bull's being interchangable with Healing Signet.

Your post starts off ok, but then gets slowly worse as it goes on.
You're right in saying Deep Wound is needed, but that's about it. You should NEVER use Hundred Blades. Warrior Deep Wound skills are Gash, Eviscerate/Dismember, and Crushing Blow for Swords, Axes and Hammers respectively. All using secondary skills to cause it acheives is to make your spike worse and your attribute spread less efficient.

moko · Jul 14, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Why don't you mention Final Thrust.
Why do you suggest using Augury of Death instead of Sever Gash.
Why do you suggest using Ripostes.
Why did you post a build with Sun & Moon and Hundred Blades with no Conjure.
Why did you suggest using Hundred Blades at all.

'Good swordsmanship' is not about being a warrior with hex removal and enchantment removal. 'Good swordsmanship' is about taking out your target and staying alive. Leave the hex and enchantment removal to the other members of your team, and focus on doing what a warrior is supposed to do.
And Sever Gash is far better than Augury on a warrior. Augury hexes them, which both gives away your spike and gives their monks a chance to remove it. It also shadowsteps you to them in the middle of your spike, which interrupts whatever skill you were using.
If you're going to make a detailed post about good swordsmanship, atleast make a mention of the most common sword build there is.
[skill]crippling slash[/skill][skill]gash[/skill][skill]final thrust[/skill][skill]bull's strike[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]rush[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
With Bull's being interchangable with Healing Signet.

Your post starts off ok, but then gets slowly worse as it goes on.
You're right in saying Deep Wound is needed, but that's about it. You should NEVER use Hundred Blades. Warrior Deep Wound skills are Gash, Eviscerate/Dismember, and Crushing Blow for Swords, Axes and Hammers respectively. All using secondary skills to cause it acheives is to make your spike worse and your attribute spread less efficient.

this post > the OP. (final thrust rush is dangerous though o_o)

also, quivering blade is awful.

FoxBat · Jul 14, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

When pugging AB, hex removal isn't a bad idea. (Actually, purge signet is good period.)

Likewise frenzy isn't the greatest thing for soloing. Teams also typically have 1 to 0 bad monks so spiking isnt so important. Battle rage with hamstring works about as well as cripslash because no-one but the rangers has good condition removal. (And you ain't soloing those anyway)

This isn't Gladiators, we aren't talking real PvP here.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 14, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Why don't you mention Final Thrust.
Why do you suggest using Augury of Death instead of Sever Gash.
Why do you suggest using Ripostes.
Why did you post a build with Sun & Moon and Hundred Blades with no Conjure.
Why did you suggest using Hundred Blades at all.

'Good swordsmanship' is not about being a warrior with hex removal and enchantment removal. 'Good swordsmanship' is about taking out your target and staying alive. Leave the hex and enchantment removal to the other members of your team, and focus on doing what a warrior is supposed to do.
And Sever Gash is far better than Augury on a warrior. Augury hexes them, which both gives away your spike and gives their monks a chance to remove it. It also shadowsteps you to them in the middle of your spike, which interrupts whatever skill you were using.
If you're going to make a detailed post about good swordsmanship, atleast make a mention of the most common sword build there is.
[skill]crippling slash[/skill][skill]gash[/skill][skill]final thrust[/skill][skill]bull's strike[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]rush[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
With Bull's being interchangable with Healing Signet.

Your post starts off ok, but then gets slowly worse as it goes on.
You're right in saying Deep Wound is needed, but that's about it. You should NEVER use Hundred Blades. Warrior Deep Wound skills are Gash, Eviscerate/Dismember, and Crushing Blow for Swords, Axes and Hammers respectively. All using secondary skills to cause it acheives is to make your spike worse and your attribute spread less efficient.

First, you're so wrong about me not posting a build with a conjure. Its there, above the second build with SaMS. Second, Augury of Death is under advanced application,so you are again mistaken on why I recommended it. I recommend AoD because whenapplied properly, the deep wound nearly kills every time due to timing and the speed that the deep wound comes. The teleport is effective for runners, and Sun and moon slash is 2 unblockable attacks that further help to build adrenaline.

Third, I didn't mention Final Thrust because FT isnt for a guy who can't realize that he needs his stances active(IE Flail) before using it, or he is without adrenaline, and thus, makes it not for novice players. Fourth, I suggest using riposte because riposte and deadly riposte are excellent anti melee skills for a swordsman. Every assassin that plays AB dreads a riposte warrior, due to the chance of a hard spike during their attack sequence. This isn't a clinic on GvG swordsmanship, since it is based on a monk saving everyone at every time, and the swordsman must realize that most of his attempts will be negated by said monk and not his target. You want to try to poke holes in my thread, well now i'll show the flaws in you sword build.

First, when you activate frenzy, you will take double damage. A solid assassin using [skill=card]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill=card]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill=card]Unsuspecting Strike[/skill][skill=card]Wild Strike[/skill][skill=card]Horns Of The Ox[/skill][skill=card]Impale[/skill][skill=card]Tiger's Fury[/skill]- you'd be a dead man. Oh, that's right, you're depending on Aegis to save you?

You think the sin is going to run away? Right, that's got to be the reason

Bull's has no use, since that same sin will kill you without breaking a sweat. He won't be running away.

Your lack of vision disappoints me.

As for Hundred blades, it is useful when you have imagination. In a conjure build, as I have depicted, Hundred Blades+ Sun and Moon will do major damage. 4 attacks with 2 moves, plus the conjure damage. You think you can output as much with Crippling? Think again. Though, CS+ Gash is solid, but my alternative was for people who didn't want to use gash.

And, btw, a riposte warrior would take your GvG swordsman to school, because it is dependent on a monk to survive. That same build wouldn't survive augury either without a monk. I'm talking swordsmen, not swordsman plus a monk to remove the hex. i'm talking you against an opponent, not a 8 man team, or a 4 man team. Don't throw dirt in the game, especially bad dirt.

Tab · Jul 14, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

First, you're so wrong about me not posting a build with a conjure. Its there, above the second build with SaMS.

I saw the conjure build, I was commenting on the fact the second build has both Sun&Moon and Hundred Blades but no conjure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Second, Augury of Death is under advanced application,so you are again mistaken on why I recommended it. I recommend AoD because whenapplied properly, the deep wound nearly kills every time due to timing and the speed that the deep wound comes. The teleport is effective for runners, and Sun and moon slash is 2 unblockable attacks that further help to build adrenaline.

Augury of Death interrupts your action. Therefore it is counterproductive to use it in a spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Third, I didn't mention Final Thrust because FT isnt for a guy who can't realize that he needs his stances active(IE Flail) before using it, or he is without adrenaline, and thus, makes it not for novice players.

Final Thrust isn't some extremely difficult to use skill. It's an extremely poweful attack to finish a spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Fourth, I suggest using riposte because riposte and deadly riposte are excellent anti melee skills for a swordsman. Every assassin that plays AB dreads a riposte warrior, due to the chance of a hard spike during their attack sequence.

Ripostes are a horrible idea. Sure they make people switch targets, but that isn't much of a success in itself. I'd much rather have someone beating on a warrior than on my monk for example.
Assassins shouldn't dread a Riposte warrior, because there's 11 other players and alot of NPCs to spike aswell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

This isn't a clinic on GvG swordsmanship, since it is based on a monk saving everyone at every time, and the swordsman must realize that most of his attempts will be negated by said monk and not his target.

Relying on a backline to stop people dying makes alot more sense than running multiple builds which are much weaker than they should be because they try to fit in defence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

You want to try to poke holes in my thread, well now i'll show the flaws in you sword build.

First, when you activate frenzy, you will take double damage. A solid assassin using [skill=card]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill=card]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill=card]Unsuspecting Strike[/skill][skill=card]Wild Strike[/skill][skill=card]Horns Of The Ox[/skill][skill=card]Impale[/skill][skill=card]Tiger's Fury[/skill]- you'd be a dead man. Oh, that's right, you're depending on Aegis to save you?

There's this technique called not activating frenzy when youre under attack, and cancelling it when you come under attack. I don't know if you've heard of it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Bull's has no use, since that same sin will kill you without breaking a sweat. He won't be running away.

Please don't say things like this when you have no idea what you're talking about. Bull's is one of the, if not THE best skills in the game. It's for KDing a target before you spike, since you know, most people who have any idea how to play will kite, not for defending against sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

As for Hundred blades, it is useful when you have imagination. In a conjure build, as I have depicted, Hundred Blades+ Sun and Moon will do major damage. 4 attacks with 2 moves, plus the conjure damage. You think you can output as much with Crippling? Think again. Though, CS+ Gash is solid, but my alternative was for people who didn't want to use gash.

Sun and Moon does the job of applying multiple hits from conjure perfectly well. Hundred Blades would be fine if it wasn't an elite, but the fact it takes your elite makes it suck.
People that don't want to use Gash shouldn't be playing a Sword Warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

And, btw, a riposte warrior would take your GvG swordsman to school, because it is dependent on a monk to survive. That same build wouldn't survive augury either without a monk. I'm talking swordsmen, not swordsman plus a monk to remove the hex. i'm talking you against an opponent, not a 8 man team, or a 4 man team. Don't throw dirt in the game, especially bad dirt.

Sorry to break the news, but Guild Wars is a team game. A Riposte Warrior wouldn't take my GvG Warrior to school for several reasons. Firstly, I'd just change targets. Secondly, Your Ripose warrior has awful damage output.
Stating that a build would beat another 1v1 does not mean that it is effective. It means that it fails in a team situation, which, as I said, is the point of Guild Wars.

Also, about your repeated references to how a Shadow Prison Assassin would destroy a GvG Cripslash Warrior. It wouldn't. A Shadow Prison chain will not kill a 116 AL target, even if it all lands perfectly. Then we factor in that the Warrior has Mending Touch, which removes the conditions and restores alot of health. Then we have an optional heal sig to top off the health.
Not to mention that the build you stated is inferior to a standard Shadow Prison Assassin.

I'm not 'throwing dirt' into the game. I'm explaining why the builds you posted are bad.

moko · Jul 14, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

And, btw, a riposte warrior would take your GvG swordsman to school, because it is dependent on a monk to survive. That same build wouldn't survive augury either without a monk. I'm talking swordsmen, not swordsman plus a monk to remove the hex. i'm talking you against an opponent, not a 8 man team, or a 4 man team. Don't throw dirt in the game, especially bad dirt.

i'm sorry to burst your bubble but this is a teamgame. if you are relying on your oh so beloved 'swordsmen' then have fun farming bosses 1vs1.

btw your sin build is terrible, where are you getting the trash from? and sins going on warriors, especially riposte noobs are terrible - why g on a war which you CANNOT one chain anyways when you can just autokill a squishy so much easier and faster which is a bigger treat to you anyways?

and yeah, even if AB isn't real PvP, the game basics apply to their also.

in fact, most PvP builds will do far better in PvE also.

and LOL, someone doesn't know how2use frenzy? how cute. :]

martialis · Jul 14, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

*sigh*
Why do you have to fill threads with pages of stupid comments? Why can't they just be simple and make sense? Now he's going to respond to your nonsense, and this will just continue endlessly.

The reason assassins attack warriors seems to be that, in AB, the assassins outnumber all the other classes, so they have no other targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

and LOL, someone doesn't know how2use frenzy? how cute. :]

He's not the only one.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 14, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

OP = fail.

Mokone >>>>> you.

Learn2play before you make guides like this.

Turbobusa · Jul 14, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

"bull has no use". ho god.

you seem to be talking about pvp also, so why wouldn't you rely on someone to remove a hex or heal you? and if you're not designed to split, you don't. or you do, with someone to heal/protect/whatever.

I like the assassin build also. wild strike on warrior under frenzy? no!!!!!

Taedronai · Jul 14, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

"bull has no use". ho god.

you seem to be talking about pvp also, so why wouldn't you rely on someone to remove a hex or heal you? and if you're not designed to split, you don't. or you do, with someone to heal/protect/whatever.

I like the assassin build also. wild strike on warrior under frenzy? no!!!!!

ROFL. You win the thread.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 15, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

You guys are funny. First, if your opponent doesn't run, what KDing is bull's strike doing? None.

In GvG/TA/HA the use of frenzy isn't looked down upon because of the level of monk skill that should be employed. Wild Strike doesnt just stop frenzy, but also sprint, rush,and enraging charge-so wildstrike has many purposes. If the assassin build I displayed looked flawed to some, believe me that their are many others that would kill just as fast.

If you all read the OP again, you would realize that what I'm refering to is swordsmanship and sword skills.

[skill=card]Bull's strike[/skill] is a "melee" skill, meaning it isn't defined as a swordsmanship skill by any means. Augury of Death, in a team scenario wouldn't stop a spike. The attacker, I.E. The Warrior, who applies the hex, would still continue to attack until the hex took effect, teleporting past your enemy and causing the deep wound simultaneously. Since we have a bunch of champions of advanced swordsmanship: let me give a more advanced build explaination, by revealing my current AB swordsman build.

[skill=card]Augury of Death[/skill][skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Final Thrust[/skill][skill=card]Riposte[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Flail[/skill][skill=card]Enraging Charge[/skill]

In this build, Their is no way to avoid the deep wounds. Running won't save you, and the riposte will be useable as needed due to adrenaline buildup. Open with EC, upon the first 2 attacks adrenaline for Flail is enough to make it active. By the 4th hit, Cripple the target, by the 5th strike use Gash at this point. Now, anyone that has played a riposte build knows that the riposte will activate every 3 strikes after it first activates. Keep flail up until the target attempts to run, because they always try.By this time, your target should be well below 1/2 HP. This is the time where you have 2 options. Continue to Cripple/Gash, or use Augury of Death and Enraging Charge. I can almost gaurantee that if you chose the later, your target will be either dead or near death. If not dead, Final Thrust will surely finish the job.

This only changes when attacking a warrior with a self heal or heavy defenses. In GvG, heavy defenses aren't used by warriors, so that isn't a worry. Interupts from rangers and mesmers stop healing signets during spikes, or the attackers KD the spiked target to prevent the use of self healing. This happens in AB as well, but it isn't always the case.

The thing about Augury of Death that people don't seem to grasp yet is that the hex reacts to damage in general, not just the damage that the principal caster inflicts. For example, in a spike situation, if the target gets away from you, and is attacked by another, the damage triggers the hex effect and you teleport to the hexed target. If this target drops below 50% health, the hex triggers, but if you apply it while the target is near 25% health then the next attack is an instant kill in most cases.

That isn't the case with Gash, since Gash is seen coming from the moment you bleed an opponent. As a warrior, or as a GW player in general, we all see Sever Artery, and anticipate Gash. We see Shadow Prison, and anticipate the barrage of fast attacks such as [skill=card]Black Mantis Thrust[/skill][skill=card]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill=card]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill=card]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill=card]Impale[/skill].

Anticipation is the enemy of the spike. Those who watch for such things will find Augury of Death to be hard to catch when in close proximity to a spike scenario. Who really looks for AoD when all are watching for Shadow Prison and Expose Defenses. If anything, in a team scenario, Augury would be able to be used with a SP sin without causing an eyebrow to be raised until people start dying with a 1/4 bar spike death. However, I've left my topic to explain my use of a hex.

The people who have commented thus far are those who believe that a swordsman shouldn't defend himself, and should leave those things to the monk and enchantments. These are the same people who whined about Grenth when he dominated and tore through the Aegis chain. The same people who screamed for an awesome elite to be quite literally made 'undesireable' by high end PvP players. Am I surprised that they try to poke holes into my thread? No. Have they succeeded in discounting my applications? No. So far, what I have seen in the form of comments are...

Quote:

Turbobusa
"bull has no use". ho god.

you seem to be talking about pvp also, so why wouldn't you rely on someone to remove a hex or heal you? and if you're not designed to split, you don't. or you do, with someone to heal/protect/whatever.

I like the assassin build also. wild strike on warrior under frenzy? no!!!!!

Quote:

OP = fail.

Mokone >>>>> you.

Learn2play before you make guides like this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

i'm sorry to burst your bubble but this is a teamgame. if you are relying on your oh so beloved 'swordsmen' then have fun farming bosses 1vs1.

btw your sin build is terrible, where are you getting the trash from? and sins going on warriors, especially riposte noobs are terrible - why g on a war which you CANNOT one chain anyways when you can just autokill a squishy so much easier and faster which is a bigger treat to you anyways?

and yeah, even if AB isn't real PvP, the game basics apply to their also.

in fact, most PvP builds will do far better in PvE also.

and LOL, someone doesn't know how2use frenzy? how cute. :]

This way of commenting and thinking is what makes threads that try to shed light on new applications of skills into flamefests. You guys are not being productive by saying "This shouldn't be done because I don't do it, and they don't do it!" If you are going to say that something doesn't work, by all means make an example that is more valid than...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Why did you suggest using Hundred Blades at all.

No one has said why what I have said won't work. Probably because it does work, but it isn't the mainstream tactic. Also, saying that AB isn't real PvP is pure nonsense. PvP means Player vs Player, which if I'm correct, Alliance Battles fit into that category. Is it high end PvP, no, but it still qualifies as PvP. Is it the most organized, not always, but that doesn't take away from what it is. A version of PvP play.

Once again, I was bringing light to the swordsman and application for use of the sword. Not a GvG clinic on how to play in a team. To bring in team scenarios and the application of monks has nothing to do with swordsmen in a general sense. If you want to argue the application of secondary skills within a swordsman's build, be my guest. If you are a purist and feel that the use of a secondary is not needed, by all means, express that. However, please don't detract from the topic of the OP. Swordsmen and Swordsmanship applications.

Feel free to add to the education of less experienced players as you feel, but don't take away from the topic with statements refering to other things than swordsmanship.

spyke136 · Jul 15, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

[skill]Power Attack[/skill][wiki]Power Attack[/wiki]

using this with Crip Slash + Gash + Final Thrust, you have insane DPS, in conjuction with a Zealous Weapon and Flail, you are doing more damage than almost any opponent can handle.

thor hammerbane · Jul 15, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Sorry, but I need to join the flame train.

Hundred Blades: Never bring this to PvP. If you do, Don't be surprised if your team ragequits. SaMS was input for a reason; It has the same effect and is unblockable. Hundred may have the aoe, but you aren't looking to slightly annoy 2-3 people, you're looking to spike a single target and kill him in seconds.

Bulls Strike: 9/10 Warrior Skill Bars I use Include this skill. Great skill, If you think it sucks then you shouldn't be making warrior guides. Provides great pressure, Especially when coupled with rush; That monk ain't going nowheres.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

If you're going to make a detailed post about good swordsmanship, atleast make a mention of the most common sword build there is.
[skill]crippling slash[/skill][skill]gash[/skill][skill]final thrust[/skill][skill]bull's strike[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]rush[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

This is probably the most effective sword warrior you can run. Provides pressure with cripple+bleed+knockdown (w/ bulls strike). Provides the spike element with gash+final thrust. Provides the self sustainment of condition removal; No blind bot is going to stop you. You want your little attunement? go W/e, drop mending touch and bulls strike, bring SaMS and Conjure. To me, the Attunements are over rated.

You also seem to have an unhealthy obsession with augury of death. This is basically setting off an alarm for the enemy; if your using this in your spike, You obviously need to precast it before you unload, giving the enemy 2-3 seconds anticipation before the spike; They are going to prot the shit out of that target, You ain't spiking nothing.

~A Disgruntled Warrior.

Dr Strangelove · Jul 15, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I really have a lot of trouble slogging through Darkpower's really verbose style, but from what I can tell, Mokone is completely right about warriors and the OP is completely wrong.

Augury of death is ok on a caster that has no other method of DW, but warriors have really easy options. As for being worried about if failing, if you can't hit anything, you probably weren't spiking anyone out in the first place.

Riposte - No.

Hundred Blades - Maybe if you have a conjure. Probably still a bad idea.

Frenzy = The best IAS in the game.

Rez- all builds need a rez, don't be selfish.

EDIT: Writing style tips:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

In Guild Wars, 3 weapons are defined as "warrior" weapons. The hammer,the axe, and the sword. Of these 3 weapons, the sword is looked at as being the more basic of the 3, due to its narrow damage and spike capability that the sword is considered to possess.

This supposed "limitation" gives the impression of inferiority in the case of spike damage in PvP compared to the axe. Yet, what the sword excels at is steady, consistant, rock solid aggression. The use of the sword ingame has many real life niuances that are loosely grasped by those that favor the sword.

Less is more. Revision:

Swords are less effective without than other weapons because of their low base damage. However, swords are still pretty good at constant pressure, if not spiking.

Batou of Nine · Jul 15, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

This is a bit long...

It seems the OP and others have turned this into a skill choice debate. Well a LOT of that comes down to preference, and yet even more of an applicable aspect is SETTING! As in the type of PvP environment. So that is what i will talk about, rather then preach my opinions on skill choices.

As far as the OP guide goes. I can honestly say it was well thought out, well laid out and consideratly made. In terms of direct application, it seems to have a few holes. Along with other posters, the following is simply my opinion, so take it or leave it...

First off, PvP application in terms of warrior is in almost ALL regards as doing Adrenaline spikes. Now keep in mind, that is in regards to "high" end PvP (GvG and HA). The reason for this general thinking is because warriors natural armor is enough to slow down a spike, enough so that a monk is given time to compensate, in essence the warrior is still seen as less of a threat then the offensive spellcaster. Sure there are exceptions such as armor ignoring spikes, but those points aside, the previous is general knowledge. So it should be establised that in high end PvP, one of the warriors primary goals is Adrenaline spikes, and secondary is key enemy harrasment (i.e. Pressure).

So, considering the previous, Deep Wound is indeed an extremely effective condition to use for a warrior's adrenaline spike. As the OP said, dropping the targets health down 20% can get you around 100hp or more off of their total. Deep Wound is an undesputed tool in the high end PvP warrior's arsenal, that much is true...

As for the reason the axe is so much more popular in PvP; plain and simple, it can apply Deep Wound on a target much quicker then a sword. Comparable is Gash for the sword, but in the end the Deep Wound application from an axe along with its skill choices will ultimatly put out more total spike damage then any sword build can, no matter the weapon damage range. It comes down to the damage application from the skills... Eviscerate and even Decapitate are good examples of combo DW and massive dmg bonuses...

Sure swordsmen have their place and you do indeed see them in high end PvP. Although less as often as the axe warrior, i also enjoy playing a swordsmen every now and again.

In high end PvP, it should NOT be about average DPS. It is about the MOST amount of damage in the smallest amount of time, hence a spike. DPS builds in GvG or HA or in general not very successful. A monk can easily negate simple DPS through the Prot line and any assortment of enchantments... Spike attacks prevail for that reason.

Ok, so i deverge to other PvP realms: AB, RA, TA, Aspenwood, etc. Basically, ANY PvP aspect that is not GvG or HA is not considered "high" end PvP. Now this doesn't mean it is "low" end PvP, it simply reflects the amount of tactics, teamwork, and planning that each type involves. TA can be compared in small respect to high end, but obviously isn't an 8 man process.

So when people talk about these other PvP aspects, then in my opinion it becomes the "anything works" debate. Self heals, DPS, specific snare types, self containment technics can all come into play more-so then high end PvP. It should be self evident that those aspects of PvP do NOT involve as much work as GvG or HA. If anyone disputes that, well that's your perrogative. Anyway, because of that aspect, making a "guide" can be tricky. I did not read (in truth, i skimmed) you specifically saying that your guide was for GvG, HA, AB, RA, or anything. You do mention PvP, but that is still way too general...

That said, i believe THAT in itself is why you are getting slack from people. Some probly think you are talking about GvG or HA, while others may just simply disagree with your opinions. Despite most of them flaming in an incredibly immature way, i commend you for providing your rebutle in a calm and respectful manner. You should say specifically what aspect of PvP you are talking about, and from the builds you have shown thus far, i would hope you are talking about AB, TA, RA, etc...

Anyway, i hope that helps the line of thinking here. I think the guide itself isn't bad, especially for PvP beginners that need a direction for being a swordsman in general PvP...

Heh, i kinda got preachy anyway... lol.

cheers.

P.S. For general purpose Dragon Slash builds, how can no one suggest Sun and Moon? Adrenaline build-up along with DS ftw?

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 15, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Ok, as expected, the flame train seems to continue. Again, I never said that Bull's Strike wasn't good on a bar. What I said was that if no one is running from you, then their is no KD. Is that not truth?

You guys are still focused on chasing squishy targets when I am talking about applying swordsmanship properly. You're overobsessed with GvG builds and applications of that build. In that aspect, the majority of you,except Batou, have not done anything to make the thread go in a direction of progress.

Elite preferences seem to have grabbed major attention. I know people don't care for Hundred Blades, but because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't useful. Crippling Slash is a solid attack, but does little to amount to extra damage. Quivering blade isn't my choice, but doesn't mean another may not use it. Dragon Slash is so popular because its damage is compareable to Eviscerate and the bonus adrenaline gained from a successful attack makes for a moderately spammable attack. The axe may be prefered in a warrior build for High End PvP, but the sword is quite capable of dealing out an adrenaline spike of it's own, even though the Deep Wound factor may come slower. Yet, if we are talking in terms of High End PvP, their are multiple ways to apply a deep wound on each team in contention. 2 Warriors and a 3rd melee character, all with DW capabilities is usually the norm.

As for the speed of a spike, being able to inflict the deep wound quickly has a disadvantage when you use it, just to have it removed by a monk. To reapply it is easy enough, but so is removing it again. So, wouldn't you rather use your wits and apply the deep wound and kill your target fast enough that the monk can't respond? That's what prompted my use of Augury of Death. It's an option, not the staple of change. Also, as for the thought that Augury interupts your action, what it does is move you from one place to another, as do all shadowstep style moves. Have you ever seen an assassin attack directly after using a shadowstep? Augury is no different, just push the damn button and you attack again.

moko · Jul 15, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Ok, as expected, the flame train seems to continue. Again, I never said that Bull's Strike wasn't good on a bar. What I said was that if no one is running from you, then their is no KD. Is that not truth?

if the target isn't kiting, you are in range, if it doesn't kite you, you can unleash your adrenaline, if your target starts kiting you KD. what of this don't you understand? you are not forced to use bulls on recharge you know; it's a SMART TOOL to use.

Quote:

[skill]Bull's Strike[/skill]is a "melee" skill, meaning it isn't defined as a swordsmanship skill by any means. Augury of Death, in a team scenario wouldn't stop a spike. The attacker, I.E. The Warrior, who applies the hex, would still continue to attack until the hex took effect, teleporting past your enemy and causing the deep wound simultaneously. Since we have a bunch of champions of advanced swordsmanship: let me give a more advanced build explaination, by revealing my current AB swordsman build.

ONOS! A MELEE SKILL! WHY ARE YOU USING STANCES OR RIPOSTE AND AUGURY THEN?? THEY AINT 'SWORDSMANSHIP SKILLS' EITHER! LOL.

Quote:

The people who have commented thus far are those who believe that a swordsman shouldn't defend himself, and should leave those things to the monk and enchantments.

i don't see how your build has additional self defense apart from a bad skill named riposte which is inferior to mending touch 564 times because blind warriors are soo good

Quote:

No one has said why what I have said won't work. Probably because it does work, but it isn't the mainstream tactic. Also, saying that AB isn't real PvP is pure nonsense. PvP means Player vs Player, which if I'm correct, Alliance Battles fit into that category

your main goal is to kill NPCs. you cannot win alliance battles by whiping the other team over and over until it's DPed out like in a GvG. so i in fact consider RA more PvP than alliance battles. but hey who cares, as long as i can farm it like PvE with farming builds (55 anyone) it will remain PvE to me.

basically, we keep going onto the GvG direction because the builds being used there by good players are usually the best and most balanced builds you can find. why would you want to run other trash so you can have 1vs1 when it's not even the purpose of guildwars?

Turbobusa · Jul 15, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

i've seen a guy using hundred blades in obs mode today. he did something like
conjure x 2 - 17 -18
so i don't see the point of using it over another elite like cripslash that makes you save one slot.

If flaming is telling you why A won't work, B is better than C, or how to use D, yeah i'm flaming. at least i'm trying.

Quote:

Wild Strike doesnt just stop frenzy, but also sprint, rush,and enraging charge-so wildstrike has many purposes

I was referencing to the "use frenzy, and you get spiked". wild strike is a really good skill, just, not here.

Age · Jul 15, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

It is not a bad guide I would revise it edit it and take in what others are saying as Positive criticism and stop flaming.There is nothing wrong with good positive feed back from others.I would just edit it.