Curse

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 17, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

In my last thread I tried to approach the use of swordsmanship on a wide scale, only to have a flamefest erupt because people were looking from a narrow scope. Since I can't feed you all information in a large helping (My biggest mistake) I'll give it to you in bite size doses.

The overall most popular use of a sword build from a PvP perspective is in the form of Pressure. Pressure in the sense of keeping your target offbalance and so near death that they can't do their job. To properly apply pressure, one must have a solid snaring skill to keep the target close at hand. These two aspect of game combat work hand in hand, and thus I will make no point in trying to seperate them.

Pressure Applications:

To apply pressure properly, one must be able to cause enough damage to significantly make the target feel threatened. Also, while pressure is being applied, you want to keep the target offbalance and continue to make them feel threatened by your presence. That's when the GvG build comes into play.

[skill=card]"You're All Alone!"[/skill][skill=card]Sever Artery[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Final Thrust[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Pious Haste[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

This YAA build is one I have seen in OB mode. Though lacking a condition removal, it is solid with all the basics needed to cause pressure. With a few modifications, especially a secondary change and an elite swap, the build is streamlined.

[skill=card]Mending Touch[/skill][skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Final Thrust[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Enraging Charge[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

This build is more readily useable for a split situation, or a 4 man Team build, due to the compacting of crippling/bleeding as well as the use of a condition removal. To deal out pressure, you don't need to be inventive when things already in use are readily available and still very valid.

Once again, the application of a deep wound is critical to the proper play of a pressure build. Without a dw, you just aren't causing enough overall damage in a short enough time frame to be a threat. Sad to say, their are no alternative means to apply a deep wound with a sword, and since it take some time to apply Gash, you're playing the waiting game. In the meantime, you stay focused on what you are doing.

[skill=card]Bull's Strike[/skill][skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Final Thrust[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Dash[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Once again, a build made more for the full team scenario than for a split with a healthy dose of secondary/non sword skills to make the all around swordsman build perform to its maximum ability. Dash is a great close quarters speed boosting stance, as well as a counterstance for frenzy. With Bull's Strike thrown in to add to the snaring of Crippling Slash, you give little breathing room to an opponent.

The purpose of these types of builds are strictly for team play and harrassment in the backline.

With BS in use, it would be to your advantage to implement the use of a Stonefist Insignia, possibly on your gloves or helmet, in order to apply the 3 second KD when BS is used.

Also, one may think to more readily use furious weapons at the outset of the build's use, and switch to a vamp blade after the adrenaline is sufficiently built up. More often than not, pressure builds for sword, as well as axe will be heavily adrenaline based. That, however, is just a suggestion, since I prefer furious weapons due to more fondness of adrenaline based builds.

I'll expand in my next thread about damage output and PvE swordsmanship basics.

Tab · Jul 17, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

No crap about using Augury = win. Still, this is a collection of 3 wiki builds.
And I thought Bull's was useless?

Claymore · Jul 17, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

While not trying to incite a flamefest here I do have a straight honest question, the conditions you speak of as applying pressure, bleeding, Deep wound and knockdowns and or cripple can also be applied via axe build.

Is there a specific reason why you are applying the sword instead of the axe in this kind of a pressure build?

Dr Strangelove · Jul 17, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Yup, these are pretty much the standard sword builds for PvP, although dragon slashers do sometimes see play. Also, deep wound is really for spiking, not pressure.

For YAA, I prefer Dash and signet of malice to mending touch and whatever, but that's personal preference and all I guess. I wouldn't really want to split without some condition removal.

Finalle

karunpav · Jul 17, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Since the builds you give are primarily pressure builds, why would you be using Final Thrust? You should be using S&M. Final just depletes your adren pool, thereby reducing your ability to spam CripSlash and apply real condition pressure.

And on your second build, I wouldn't use Enraging Charge. Swordsmen don't really need that extra spot of adrenaline, since they attack reasonably quickly anyway. It's really only useful on hammers where buildup is slow.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 17, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Once again, I never said Bull's Strike was useless as a skill. I said it was useless if the opponent wasn't running from you.

As for the builds I picked for the discussion, they are simply the normally chosen vanilla builds used by PvP players who use swords and apply pressure. Augury is what I chose for an advance change of pace, and it met such opposition that it wouldn't be prudent to discuss here in this forum again. In the eyes of most in the last thread, Augury of Death shouldn't be on a bar, and as such caused an uproar for all the wrong reasons.

"You want Gash, then use Gash. You don't like Gash, then you're using the wrong weapon. Period!"

That's not my opinion, but the opinion expressed by the posters of the previous thread attempt. I'll keep more exotic/unconventional means of causing the end result to myself for now on. I don't start threads to cause needless fighting, but to inform the uninformed.

In response to Karunpav, the reason for Final Thrust is to be able, if need be, to participate in the spike opportunity when it presents themselves. I agree that SaMS is more pressure than Final, but my last thread was based on SaMS and not FT. If you read that, you'll see the result of leaving out FT. Also, with the use of Frenzy instead of Flail, as was in my first thread, you have a readily available IAS to restart the buildup of adrenaline at will as well as apply auto attack pressure with a bit of Bull's Strike for good measure. As for EC on my second build, its use is to further the use of Crippling Slash, making it more available in order to snare the target.

havok019 · Jul 17, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Keep the issues in the last thread in the other thread please. There's no point to moving that discussion here as they are not on topic.

moko · Jul 17, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

the YAA is supposed to run Dash and Signet of Malice for Pious and Final.

it's made to be a ganker afterall - doesn't need spike ability.

and their point was that putting a spike skill when you made a topic about "pressure". the last one was a very general topic which seemed to talk about various topics, so multiple things were needed.

the cripslash bars are fine, but i suppose i'd prefer Rush, at least on the first. of course, Rush would lead to S&M, because FT and Rush is somewhat..deadly.

might want to add conjure though (in case this is an updated version of the other..well, even if it ain't, conjure plays a very big part in pressure so..)

but overall, much better.

samcobra · Jul 17, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

cripslash+bull's strike= amazing.

RotteN · Jul 17, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

i'm quite suprised you didn't even mention conjure builds in a thread about "pressure". they do a ton of damage and seriously hurt a lot more than the builds you posted. Cripple doesn't kill people, and even bleeding isn't much of a threath realy (unless you apply an awefull lot of pressure already, then it could be "the drop").

a simple conjure build like

[skill=card]shock[/skill][skill=card]crippling slash[/skill][skill=card]gash[/skill][skill=card]sun and moon slash[/skill][skill=card]frenzy[/skill][skill=card]rush[/skill][skill=card]resurrection signet[/skill][skill=card]conjure lightning[/skill]

will outperform any of the builds you posted easely as main team pressure character, as it provides an unconditional knockdown, an added 17 damage on every hit, and the possibility to cancel/reactivate frenzy very often (thanks to rush) enabling you to get the maximum out of your IAS without taking bulks of damage.

combine that with the fact that you have quite some unblockable damage (sun&moon + conjure and yes, even shock does some nice damage) and you're set to pressure the living sh*t out of stuff.

in combination with a fire ele with mark of rodgort, you could use conjure flame for extra pressure through burning.

karunpav · Jul 18, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

In response to Karunpav, the reason for Final Thrust is to be able, if need be, to participate in the spike opportunity when it presents themselves. I agree that SaMS is more pressure than Final, but my last thread was based on SaMS and not FT. If you read that, you'll see the result of leaving out FT.

S&M is still a strong spike assist, even without Conjures. You get about 60 damage if you aren't lucky, and average 70-80 if you are. Also, I don't think it's because of your lack of FT in your builds that lead to the flamefest. I think it's the rest of the skills in the builds because (no offense) they kinda sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Also, with the use of Frenzy instead of Flail, as was in my first thread, you have a readily available IAS to restart the buildup of adrenaline at will as well as apply auto attack pressure with a bit of Bull's Strike for good measure.

Frenzy is good, no complaints there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

As for EC on my second build, its use is to further the use of Crippling Slash, making it more available in order to snare the target.

Six adrenaline isn't too hard to build up, even without EC. And if you spike while EC's still recharging (since you should be using Frenzy by now), then you're probably gonna get spiked down quickly by the enemy. So Rush in for EC, and then, like Mokone said, S&M for Final since Final+Rush=QQ.

Age · Jul 18, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by karunpav

Since the builds you give are primarily pressure builds, why would you be using Final Thrust? You should be using S&M. Final just depletes your adren pool, thereby reducing your ability to spam CripSlash and apply real condition pressure.

And on your second build, I wouldn't use Enraging Charge. Swordsmen don't really need that extra spot of adrenaline, since they attack reasonably quickly anyway. It's really only useful on hammers where buildup is slow.

It is stance so it can cancel out Frenzy although you can use sprint.

moko · Jul 18, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is stance so it can cancel out Frenzy although you can use sprint.

Sword wars are pressure, they need Frenzy a lot, 20 seconds recharge on your only cancelstance isn't a lot, so you rather have Rush which you can use a lot more and therefore Frenzy more, pressure more, etc.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 19, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

In reference to pressure swordsmen;

[skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Rush[/skill][skill=card]Bull's Strike[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

In comparison to;

[skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Rush[/skill][skill=card]Bull's Strike[/skill][skill=card]Conjure Lightning[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

and-

[skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Rush[/skill][skill=card]Shock[/skill][skill=card]Conjure Lightning[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

The first has abit more split capability with the heal signet, and Bull's Strike gives a response/reactive skill against kiters. The second build adds to the pressure scenario with conjure, but now has no self heal, making him totally dependent on his monks for healing. I believe builds like this have "Flag stand" written all over them. The third is more of the same, yet, I think shock has always been better served with [skill=card]Eviscerate[/skill] and the axe from a PvP standpoint due to its dual role of damage/deep wound applicator. That, however, is clearly an opinion.

As for the third build outperforming the originally posted set, I agree in reference to using conjure and sun and moon to create better pressure overall, yet the lack of a self heal prevents the chance of a solid split, and thus makes it come up short in the versatility department,imo.

Rush over Enraging Charge is more preference, yet the point made about it being more available if adrenaline is built fast enough is very valid.

[skill=card]Eviscerate[/skill][skill=card]Agonizing Chop[/skill][skill=card]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Rush[/skill][skill=card]Shock[/skill][skill=card]Healing Signet[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

[skill=card]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill=card]Gash[/skill][skill=card]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill=card]Frenzy[/skill][skill=card]Rush[/skill][skill=card]Shock[/skill][skill=card]Conjure Lightning[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

When placed side by side with the Shock Axe warrior of choice, you see why the axe is prefered in PvP. The axe allows for the streamlined build that still uses a DW. That unused slot in an axe build gives the use of a self heal back to the warrior and expanding his versatility and potential. Also, I added agonizing for a more pressure/spike oriented hybrid, but it can be any number of other skills, giving it more options than the sword counterpart. So, in that sense, the axe build would possibly outperform the best laid conjure sword, it would seem.