Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jun 03, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I don't get why people get so angry at these proposed nerfs, as most of them really don't matter to PvE much at all. Lots of these skills are serious problems in PvP, but don't matter in PvE. How often do you have to sit there and wait for debilitating hexes to take effect when you could just use an ele to blow them all up? How often are paragons used as tanks (either way, they still have a shield + shouts + centurions for ridiculous armor)?

People should listen to Ensign more. Not only does he have one of the best understandings of game balance of any person that plays this game (including the devs) and has been playing the PvP game at the highest of levels for an extremely long time, he also apparently does play PvE.

A lot of people are just screaming ONOES NERF GO AWAY, but really, people, think about this stuff. Even in PvE, is the game really fun if you just grab super-powerful skills and dominate an monsters you meet? Doesn't high-level PvE exist solely so that you can take on a challenge that actually takes coordination and organization to beat? I had the impression that that was the point of stuff like the UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, etc, not so that you could go in there and just farm like crazy.

martialis · Jun 03, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

A lot of people are just screaming ONOES NERF GO AWAY, but really, people, think about this stuff. Even in PvE, is the game really fun if you just grab super-powerful skills and dominate an monsters you meet? Doesn't high-level PvE exist solely so that you can take on a challenge that actually takes coordination and organization to beat? I had the impression that that was the point of stuff like the UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, etc, not so that you could go in there and just farm like crazy.

No, it exists so we can farmfatloot. UW, FoW and Urgoz can all be cleared with 3 people, and what you're seeing is the vocal minority that does that. When SS was nerfed (surprise!), people flooded the campfire with crying for weeks.

Hard mode is way too easy.

Darth Kukulkan · Jun 03, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

From which right do simple mided players like you suggest any balance whch would be all but balanced ? none

clawofcrimson · Jun 03, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Paragons are "useless" in PvE because it doesn't fit into the cookie cutter builds of pure tanking, heal/prot, or massive damage. Similar to the hundreds of threads that say how mesmers are really good but underrated in PvE, paragons are the same way. Even after nerfs to their skills, they are still very powerful and viable in PvE, just underrated.
.

The issue with mesmers is somewhat different when they have 3 or 4 chapters worth of skills to choose from... paragons do not... the skills being targeted are some of the very few skills that are actually useful to the pve paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theonemephisto

I don't get why people get so angry at these proposed nerfs, as most of them really don't matter to PvE much at all. Lots of these skills are serious problems in PvP, but don't matter in PvE. How often do you have to sit there and wait for debilitating hexes to take effect when you could just use an ele to blow them all up? How often are paragons used as tanks (either way, they still have a shield + shouts + centurions for ridiculous armor)?

People should listen to Ensign more. Not only does he have one of the best understandings of game balance of any person that plays this game (including the devs) and has been playing the PvP game at the highest of levels for an extremely long time, he also apparently does play PvE.

A lot of people are just screaming ONOES NERF GO AWAY, but really, people, think about this stuff. Even in PvE, is the game really fun if you just grab super-powerful skills and dominate an monsters you meet? Doesn't high-level PvE exist solely so that you can take on a challenge that actually takes coordination and organization to beat? I had the impression that that was the point of stuff like the UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, etc, not so that you could go in there and just farm like crazy.

Paragons could have had a very relevant and vital role in DOA were it not due to nerfs to defensive shouts... skills like [skill=text]"incoming!"[/skill] used to be good enough in pve to take a paragon in high end areas like DoA, but because of pvp balance this skill is ONLY effective with multiple copies on a all P/ team. And the true purpose of the skill is lost.

and so again pve'ers get the nerfed leftovers of 'overpowered' skills that are a direct result of PvP'ers EXPLOIT and ABUSE.. ...who clearly do not play the class/skills as they were intended.

...and why is GvG balance more important then the ability for any class to get a group in DoA??? More players spend more time in pve anyway. It's easy for a pvp'er to adapt and make a new class. But it's not as easy to see your favourite class, in which you have invested 100+hours and tons of gold to build, be completely raped of the few skills that make it viable and valuable in any group. I would say that effort should be spent to buff skills in the less used classes for this very reason.

Ensign · Jun 03, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

We're merely trying to explain things from the PvE point of view too.

When I do get involved in PvE topics, it's for similar reasons to why I get involved in PvP topics - to better understand how some aspect of the game works. I'm a bit of a Jack-of-all-Trades in PvE, sticking with a given zone or goal long enough to figure out how it works before growing bored with it.

At this point I've done pretty much everything in PvE except Citadel - I've been looking for a group for that for around a month now on and off, but just end up running Foundry groups instead. If you're making one and need an Ele let me know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeky baby

I think there should be a removal for everything

You can't make that practically true even if you can make it theoretically true. Is there removal in the game for RoF, for instance? Sure, it's an enchantment, and every once in a long while you'll be able to Shatter one, but for all practical purposes that's not removable. Instantaneous effects aren't removable either, and so forth.

Unremovable effects are fine as long as they are priced with their invulnerability to removal in mind. Generally that means weaker effects overall so that there isn't anything that must be removed, and higher costs for those effects. Skills that are uncounterable as well as unremovable (shouts for the most part) need an even higher premium. The game works fine with a subset of effects that can't be directly countered, it just gets ugly when those effects become predominant and the counter/removal game becomes less relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

the skills being targeted are some of the very few skills that are actually useful to the pve paragon.

You're unneccessarily focusing on PvE there, as Paragons don't have a lot of useful effects in general. They're easily the profession with the highest percentage of fundamentally flawed, narrow garbage in the skillset that really can't ever be good in an interesting game. Aggressive Refrain and Go for the Eyes aren't just used on every PvE Paragon bar, they are used on every Paragon bar, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

Paragons could have had a very relevant and vital role in DOA were it not due to nerfs to defensive shouts...

You quite honestly could not be more wrong about this. I personally tried out a bunch of different strategies for DoA shortly after release, including some that made heavy usage out of Paragons and team-wide passive defenses in general. Even with the crazy state of a lot of passive defense back then, it simply wasn't enough to deal with the harshest areas of DoA - the Touch Necros in Stygian Veil; the cave in Ravenheart Gloom; the Dervish swarm in Foundry. You simply cannot defend a team against the brunt of those attacks. Those areas need to be bypassed with AI tricks; by either cornerblocking and tanking them with a ridiculously protted tank character to eliminate the damage, or by walking those mobs into huge trap bombs that ignore the mobs entirely.

Once you resign yourself to needing to do use those tricks to get past those encounters, the Paragon becomes an incredibly weak character. What good is party-wide defense when your defense is coming from a tank or wall of traps?

A lot of classes are excluded from DoA simply because those encounters are too harsh, and require a very narrow range of strategies to pass. For example Rangers are largely excluded from DoA because of the number pulls that require corner blocking to pass, which removes LoS and leaves them as 'trap or bust' characters. Things aren't neccessarily as narrow as the pick up community would have you think (a Paragon isn't neccessarily bad in Stygian Veil, where you can kite the touchers and brute force everything else with a good enough team...and could function in City of Torc'qua), but in general that zone is simply too harsh for much variation in builds or strategies - it's a design disaster because of it, and not terribly fun.

However, it is also the *only* zone with that problem. Paragons are a perfectly viable profession in every other zone of the game, including Fissure of Woe, the Underworld, the Deep, and Urgoz' Warren.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

skills like [skill=text]"incoming!"[/skill] used to be good enough in pve to take a paragon in high end areas like DoA, but because of pvp balance this skill is ONLY effective with multiple copies on a all P/ team. And the true purpose of the skill is lost.

Huh? What do you think the true purpose of "Incoming!" was? I really hope you aren't insinuating that "Incoming!" is good with multiple copies on an all Paragon team, because it isn't.

The point of "Incoming!" was to stop a spike of damage if you saw it coming in, be it an adrenal spike in PvE or a big AoE hit in PvE. The problem with the initial version of the skill was that it lasted so long that you didn't have to time it with the big hits to make it effective, you could just cycle multiple copies of the skill instead to always have it up. Hence, the duration kept being nerfed to make it a spike-only skill, until its current form which is a bit too weak (it needs to be 1...4 seconds to fill its purpose).

But even in its old state, "Incoming!" was never good enough to be worth a spot in DoA. 5-6 seconds of half damage on your tank every 20 seconds is a terrible waste of your elite. Nor were any of the other party-wide buffs: they're all pretty bad when they only affect one person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

and so again pve'ers get the nerfed leftovers of 'overpowered' skills that are a direct result of PvP'ers EXPLOIT and ABUSE.. ...who clearly do not play the class/skills as they were intended.

Since you're the expert on what Arena.net intended to do with the Paragon profession, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me?

Because I honestly do not understand what the PvE community that is so up in arms about the "PvP EXPLOIT AND ABUSE" of Paragon skills was doing with the profession that was so different. At least my PvE Paragons were rather similar to my PvP Paragons - a ton of passive defense and party-wide buffs, with a couple of spear attacks mixed in to up the damage. I believe the prototypical "PvE Paragons" forsook the spear entirely and just mashed on party-wide defensive buffs, effectively combining the passive defense of multiple PvP Paragons onto one character. Is that incorrect?

If that's correct, what exactly is the big complaint? That those passive defensive skills, while overpowered in PvP, aren't overpowered in PvE? By what metric?

As far as I can tell, the only skills that have been really exploited by massed Paragon teams are the Finales. Those go absolutely nuts in massed Paragon teams, and either have or should be recieving huge nerfs in the near future. No, those aren't going to remain viable on single Paragon teams, that simply can't be done without a huge reworking of those skills.

But the only Finale that was relevant to PvE play was Energizing Finale, which was so ridiculously overpowered that it could outclass BiP with a single Paragon on the team. Maybe that's your point about nerfs ruining the Paragon for PvE. The old EF shout Paragons could have replaced the BiP Necro in DoA by mashing on his shouts with the ridiculous EF. But unlike PvP, where that's degenerate and broken, one skill giving the entire team infinite energy at no cost is balance in PvE, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

and why is GvG balance more important then the ability for any class to get a group in DoA???

DoA is not an area you would ever want to address by buffing skills. It's basically a textbook example of really shitty PvE design, and of what happens when you don't properly balance mobs. Groups have to resort to the skills and tactics that best exploit the failings in the AI, and anything that's actually balanced for 'playing the game as intended' isn't welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

But it's not as easy to see your favourite class, in which you have invested 100+hours and tons of gold to build, be completely raped of the few skills that make it viable and valuable in any group.

What skills were those? Energizing Finale? I don't think that "Incoming!" was significantly better than Song of Restoration in PvE, though it was on par. I honestly don't know what people were using before, that recieved nerfs and made the profession bad. Maybe I'm just really bad at GW PvE, but as far as I can tell even a single Paragon is still really, really good.

I'd love to see some well targeted buffs to unused skills and professions, for both PvP and PvE. But I don't think it's nearly as important as clearing out the degenerate stuff. Unused skills are just unused skills, they might as well not exist in the game and don't have any effect. It's the skills that are too good that make their presence impossible to ignore.

Peace,
-CxE

FoxBat · Jun 04, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Some people like to use the motivation skills, but all the wrong ones were nerfed seemingly to stop all-paragon abuse. As mentioned, the finales and chorus needed hammering to curb old-school paraway, but instead Song/Ballad/Aria of Restoration were actually nerfed. They weren't really very good in their old form in balanced parties either but at least some people felt good using them or something.

Div · Jun 04, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Kukulkan

From which right do simple mided players like you suggest any balance whch would be all but balanced ? none

From the right that most people who are suggesting the balances are not simple minded...

Most players are either top PvP'ers who play a good amount of high-level PvE to understand both sides, or very experienced PvE'ers who dabble in upper level HA and GvG. Your post makes absolutely no contribution to the discussion, and is merely trolling. I don't feel sorry when mods delete posts like yours in the mirror thread in Gladiator's Arena, but apparently people make a big deal about mod "censorship" when all they're doing is censoring trash like this.

Enough ranting, if you don't anything constructive to say or respond, please don't post here. Just because this thread isn't as heavily moderated doesn't mean we want a bunch of trash here.

clawofcrimson · Jun 04, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

hey there... didn't mean to agro the balance master (I say that with respect)

ensign I actually agree with most of you adjustments. The need for further paragon adjustments is apparent to me. (anyone strolling through the paragon forums would see that I agree.) but I think perhaps more than just adjusting the skills will fix the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're unneccessarily focusing on PvE there, as Paragons don't have a lot of useful effects in general. They're easily the profession with the highest percentage of fundamentally flawed, narrow garbage in the skillset that really can't ever be good in an interesting game. Aggressive Refrain and Go for the Eyes aren't just used on every PvE Paragon bar, they are used on every Paragon bar, period.

... actually that's my point...yet these skills are the ones being targeted... With all the garbage skills in the paragon line, they need some redeeming ones. That need is even more highlighted for the pve paragon, who cant just delete and start a different character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

DoA is not an area you would ever want to address by buffing skills. It's basically a textbook example of really shitty PvE design.

you are right about that...poor example, but keep in mind that the paragon has received nothing but nerfs since its conception (aside from a few minor spear changes) and further nerfing is just putting more nails into the pve paragon coffin, and not because it is truly a bad class (I surely know this better than most). It desparately needs some well placed buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Since you're the expert on what Arena.net intended to do with the Paragon profession, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me?

Because I honestly do not understand what the PvE community that is so up in arms about the "PvP EXPLOIT AND ABUSE" of Paragon skills was doing with the profession that was so different.

I don't claim to be an expert... but I have tried hard to bring paragons back into pve. The 'zomg nerfed again' reputation of the class has just recently been recovering, due in a small part to some hard work.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10151254

...and I don't think that all paragon teams chaining 'incoming!' is exactly what was intended for the class. ...skills like 'incoming!' when they first were released, were useful to the single paragon as a filler elite, but as you said yourself, multiple copies were taken and chained. This is just one example. The "paragon LFG" has been hampered in the past because of the abuse of all the passive skills in all 'P/x' pvp teams. Would you still think these targeted skills needed adjustment if you only faced one paragon on each team??? I think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

...what exactly is the big complaint? That those passive defensive skills, while overpowered in PvP, aren't overpowered in PvE? By what metric?

..by the metric that puts enemies at a constant speed and ias boost. and a simple fun factor. Who would'nt enjoy their favourite non core professions (sin, rit, para) buffed to be not only workable...but useful in hard areas (HM, DoA, FOW)...and I'll say it again, their are more players who would benefit from this increased fun...then there are hardcore gvg'ers and HA'ers who want the game to be perfectly balanced in their own field of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

As far as I can tell, the only skills that have been really exploited by massed Paragon teams are the Finales. Those go absolutely nuts in massed Paragon teams, and either have or should be recieving huge nerfs in the near future. No, those aren't going to remain viable on single Paragon teams, that simply can't be done without a huge reworking of those skills.

I agree... the finales need work. Maybe having them work similar to weapon spells? only one at a time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But the only Finale that was relevant to PvE play was Energizing Finale, which was so ridiculously overpowered that it could outclass BiP with a single Paragon on the team. Maybe that's your point about nerfs ruining the Paragon for PvE.

It needed the nerf its true, but single paragon on a team should be able to do at least the same thing as a Bip necro no? with the current skills like 'the power is yours' you pretty much have to take Bip anyway.... so yes, it has effected the single paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'd love to see some well targeted buffs to unused skills and professions, for both PvP and PvE. But I don't think it's nearly as important as clearing out the degenerate stuff.

Important for who? ...again... these buffs would be extremely important to the pve'ers out there. Especially to make the paragon's limited skillset more inviting in light of an upcoming nerf.

Cebe · Jun 04, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you're referring to me or Ensign or something coming over to "troll" a PvE thread, then you should learn the definition of trolling. We're merely trying to explain things from the PvE point of view too. And I heard Ensign recently did hard mode Deep (upper-tier PvE), making him super-qualified to talk about PvE

I wasn't referring to you or Ensign trolling PvE threads, I was referring to other random forum users. Too often I see "ZOMG the build you clearly stated was for use in PvE wouldn't work in PvP because of this and this and this" in The Campfire...and nothing gets done. As soon as anything vaguely PvE related gets mentioned in PvP threads mods have a deleting Frenzy. Ensign does make valid comments on the thread topic, I have no quarrel with that, I just disagree with his choice of res.

Oh, thank you for explaining "hard mode Deep" was "upper-tier PvE" - I'm not sure I'd have understood that without your translation

Onto the subject of removals for shouts and weapon spells...I don't agree with weapon spell removals at all. Weapon spells can't stack like enchantments can, and are often conditional...having them strippable would hurt Ritualists and give people further reasons to not use them in PuGs. As for shouts...shout removal I could accept...maybe "shout neutering" or some sort... maybe a mesmer hex? Cast the hex and for the duration target foe cannot be affected by shouts? That could work...either that or a new condition: deafness.

Shout removal seems a bit...odd...but hexing or conditioning a foe so as they take no benefit from shouts would seem like an approptiate solution to me.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 04, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

more players who would benefit from this increased fun...then there are hardcore gvg'ers and HA'ers who want the game to be perfectly balanced in their own field of play.

This is similar to my line of thought. I'm probably being ignorant, but I see that it's mainly the GvG/HA players who want skill nerfs. Okay and so I'm likely a power creep(er), whatever it means, but not everyone hopes for game balance especially if it means their favorite skills get the axe. I know I don't since imo, while a great concept, game balance is an illusion. Nerf FoTMs, overused skills, etc but others surface and these in turn get nerfed too, and this nerf cycle would go on and on until the devs move on to GW2. So what's the point? Why not just avoid having players complain because this or that skill was nerfed.

I know forum polls do not necessarily give an accurate representation of what GW players want, but why not start one (in Riverside so it's easily seen)? I'd like to see how many are actually in favor of specific nerfs or nerfs as a whole. If the GvG/HA players represent an overwhelming majority, then by all means A-Net should implement these nerfs, and you can tell us power creepers to go to a corner heh.

sir lockt · Jun 04, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

I really dont understand a lot of these posts. Ensign proposes some skill balancing that are good for PvP. My PvP side agrees with it, but then I grab my PvE characters...

...the worst complaint is about SR. My favorite PvE char is a Necro and what did i do? I grabbed my necro went to Viz Square...and finished it with only my own half of the team, just because of SR and Minions. nice? yes of course.. but not really a challenge.

There are plenty of examples like this... A lot of PvE'ers like you are good enough to play hard-mode (for the sake of argument i hope you do...) why is it nice? why do you play it in the first place? because it is hard... any nerf would make it harder... I would say it is an improvement.

Of course there is a limitation: the game should be playable. For me the limit is at such a point you CAN finish the game...there is no need EVERYBODY can do it, but at least all professions should be able to do it. imho none of the proposed changes will influence this possibility.

After these balances are implemented you can discuss about boosting non or hardly used skill lines/skills, but in general it is just a limited open mind of many players which make them scream. Keep an open mind, stay inventive and find another way for your nerfed "this build can do everthing"...

bhavv · Jun 04, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I agree with all the suggestions except for the searing flames nerf, beacause mostly everyting in HM only takes like 44 damage or less from it.

And no SF isnt the only skill I know how to use, it just owns in HM combined with a ToF para. A searing flames nerf right now would just hurt all the whining ive been doing for the last month to actually try and get HM balanced lol. I wouldnt be any happier with it nerfed, and then hitting everything for 29 damage.

I understand how imba it is in PVP. Ive beaten a few top guilds with nothing but SF in HA, which I play because its so easy to get a group

The suggestion that was made to differ the skills for PVE and PVP would be a fantastic solution, but like Anet give a rats 4$$ about balance between the two. Their unanimous decision not to allow 7 heroes in HM just shows how little they know about balance in PVE, never mind how much their skills are messed up in PVP.

Nightfall broke PVP, and HM has broken PVE. Untill Anet listen to numerous suggestions and complaints made by the player community, GW is going to remain a broken game.

.S, i make a lot of damn typos when typing thses things lol.

Div · Jun 04, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

This is similar to my line of thought. I'm probably being ignorant, but I see that it's mainly the GvG/HA players who want skill nerfs. Okay and so I'm likely a power creep(er), whatever it means, but not everyone hopes for game balance especially if it means their favorite skills get the axe. I know I don't since imo, while a great concept, game balance is an illusion. Nerf FoTMs, overused skills, etc but others surface and these in turn get nerfed too, and this nerf cycle would go on and on until the devs move on to GW2. So what's the point? Why not just avoid having players complain because this or that skill was nerfed.

So what would you suggest? For Anet to not do anything about it like right now and have half the game be completely not worth playing? For Anet to buff 500 skills instead of nerfing 20 so that your favorite hard mode boss can deal even more insane damage? Game balance is a delicate process that has to be closely monitored, with so many skills, but it's not an illusion. Look at starcraft, for example.

As for their favorite skill getting the axe...why do you think it was their favorite skill to begin with? Usually it's because it's unfairly overpowered and much better than the rest.

Nerfing skills has the analogy of raising taxes, as both are highly unpopular moves. The typical person doesn't see a point to either, since it'll affect them negatively. However, without skill balance, the game will be a wreck. Without raising taxes, the country will be a wreck without money.

And what happens after they move on to GW2? After isolating PvP and PvE, overpowered damage skills such as searing flames is still going to be nerfed, even if it's just for PvE since every elementalist, her mother, and her brother is running searing flames.

clawofcrimson · Jun 04, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

@^ I think in the paragon's case we are not really talking about super powerful skills for the lone pve paragon, but rather the few redeeming skills that are only overpowered in a P heavy team.

there 'are' tax rules/breaks that protect us little people as well.

EDIT: I updated the OP with Ensign's current list. All things considered I think the changes are not so bad... they are still workable.

I still am uneasy about not having a removal for AR... a negative effect that you cannot remove is just as annoying as positive effects on the other team.

maybe -AL while attacking?

Xioden · Jun 04, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Simple fix for paragons; Their shouts/chants whatever don't work on other paragons with equal or greater leadership attributes.

This still leaves 1-2, maybe even 3 paragons being viable for a team build, but their effectiveness in their ability to stack skills across entire teams becomes more limited.

Ensign · Jun 05, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

you are right about that...poor example, but keep in mind that the paragon has received nothing but nerfs since its conception

There's not a lot to buff in the class. Never has been, it wasn't designed deep enough, with enough good mechanics to even work with. You can't just buff the class until it's good, you would need to rework the class. Assuming that isn't going to happen (because A.Net's live team is anemic), we have to work with simple changes on the skills that are available, and the very few interesting options that present themselevs from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

...skills like 'incoming!' when they first were released, were useful to the single paragon as a filler elite

That was the problem with the skill. It was designed an an anti-spike skill to put up as the damage was coming in, but it ended up lasting so long that simply mashing on the thing on recharge was a very effective anti-pressure mechanism. Now it is only usable as an anti-spike mechanism (and only at 12 Command, which is why it's bad). I'll go so far as to say that if Incoming is a viable skill for a majority of players in PvE, then it is way too good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

Would you still think these targeted skills needed adjustment if you only faced one paragon on each team???

The targeted skills (ala the Finales)? With the exception of Energizing Finale, no, they didn't need an adjustment with only one shouter in the build. They do need adjustment for more than one shouter, which I recommended - as far as I can remember, EF is the only Finale to have recieved a nerf so far.

The party wide healing and defensive buffs? Those are in need of nerfs, even with only one Paragon on a team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

I agree... the finales need work. Maybe having them work similar to weapon spells? only one at a time?

Only having one retardedly broken effect on you at a time is still retardedly broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

but single paragon on a team should be able to do at least the same thing as a Bip necro no?

No, a Paragon should not be able to incidentally do the job that a dedicated BiP Necro can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

these buffs would be extremmely important to the pve'ers out there.

No, actually, they probably wouldn't be. None of them would affect the Paragon's PvE role, and that's what their real problem has always been. Teams just don't want what the Paragon offers. That's not going to be fixed by making them even better at jobs that few want them to do. They need their scope widened for that to happen, and the skillset simply does not support that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

game balance is an illusion.

It is anything but an illusion. To those whom it is relevant, it is incredibly apparent and has huge impacts on gameplay. Just because you cannot see it or understand the consequences does not mean it does not exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The suggestion that was made to differ the skills for PVE and PVP would be a fantastic solution

Actually, no, it's a horrendous solution suggested by shortsighted individuals who know absolutely nothing about game design. They don't want separate PvE and PvP skill changes because it would somehow make PvE more balanced - no, they want it so that PvE can *remain unbalanced* in ways that they're accustomed to exploiting. To hell with the long term health of the game, or with diversity, or anything like that - I've got mine, and I want to keep it!

Not to dismiss the carrot-on-a-stick market segment, because it's enormous. How you design a game for them is something that's pretty well understood at this point. It should just be pointed out that game balance is not an interesting concept to that type of gamer. Nor is giving them what they want a good idea - Joe Casual is all about the carrot, but to design a game that's engaging for him it's all about the stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

I think in the paragon's case we are not really talking about super powerful skills for the lone pve paragon, but rather the few redeeming skills that are only overpowered in a P heavy team.

You think wrong. Every skill that has been nerfed so far was a problem on single Para teams as well. There are very few skills that directly benefit from having more Paragons in the build.

For 90% of the skills (the exception being the Finales) the problem has *never* been "oh, these skills are fairly balanced, but become unbalanced with lots of Paragons". It has always been "these party-wide effects are overpowered."

Paragon is the best single character template for 8v8 fighting. When one character is simply the best in a common situation, why don't you run a lot of them? Notstacking abilities mostly, which is why most teams stop at 2 or 3 Paragons in their dedicated 8v8 builds now. That 3rd Paragon just isn't anywhere near as good as the 2nd one, and the 4th one is usually pretty sketchy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

Simple fix for paragons

Completely ineffective for reasons that would be obvious if you played PvP. This is the sort of solution offered by people who don't get it at all and confuse the massed Paragons as the cause of imbalances, rather than the symptom. The strongest 8v8 builds run exactly two Paragons - and the other Paragon is the person that benefits the least from a lot of your defenses. Since, you know, they have the highest natural defense in the game.

Peace,
-CxE

Xioden · Jun 05, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Completely ineffective for reasons that would be obvious if you played PvP. This is the sort of solution offered by people who don't get it at all and confuse the massed Paragons as the cause of imbalances, rather than the symptom. The strongest 8v8 builds run exactly two Paragons - and the other Paragon is the person that benefits the least from a lot of your defenses. Since, you know, they have the highest natural defense in the game.

I do, pretty much exclusively. And yes, I do get it. I'd much prefer running into two paragons than a paraway build. Two paragons, while they do offer increased benefits, its nothing that makes the team difficult to play. A warder running 4 wards for example would have a significantly greater effect on the battle in all honesty. The given change would actually make that other paragon the weak point to the build as it would end up with less defenses than anyone else in the team. But than of course I guess just nerfing the hell out of them until they don't see use except under rare situations always works aswell.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 05, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

So what would you suggest? For Anet to not do anything about it like right now and have half the game be completely not worth playing? For Anet to buff 500 skills instead of nerfing 20 so that your favorite hard mode boss can deal even more insane damage? Game balance is a delicate process that has to be closely monitored, with so many skills, but it's not an illusion. Look at starcraft, for example.

I'm suggesting that they listen to what most players want, and I don't believe everyone wants nerfs. So maybe buff several skills in each profession. I should rephrase game balance since I'm referring to game balance only in GW. RTS games like StarCraft thrive on being balanced, and it's easier to achieve it on that genre (e.g. there are only three races and less modes of play in StarCraft).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

To those whom it is relevant, it is incredibly apparent and has huge impacts on gameplay. Just because you cannot see it or understand the consequences does not mean it does not exist.

The impacts of balance on high end (or maybe all forms of) PvP is largely positive, but what about the impacts on the rest of us noobs?

So what's your vision of a balanced GW? Cause I don't see it, I think there will always be good skills/builds that emerge which will be labelled imbalanced, and so on and so forth. If balance exists, I still believe it cannot be achieved.

Willow O Whisper · Jun 05, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

__________________

Assassin
*Reduce maximum Shadow Step distance from radar to half radar*
Black Lotus Strike: 10...20 Damage, 3...15 Energy
Shadow Prison: 2...6d

Orignally Posted by Ensign in The Gladiator Forum but this is for PvEers to have there say as well.It is your game as well.

why on earth do those skills need a nerf? I mean how hard can it be to counter a sp sin? Blind/hex removal.

HayesA · Jun 05, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Argh, not more nerfs to Searing Flames. D: I know it's not a very popular spell when you're on the receiving end. But what offensive spell IS popular to receive? Obviously one that you can either negate, or buffs you. It's a combat spell, and i'm sick of seeing decent combat spells being nerfed. I honestly don't see why poeple think it's overpowered; the burning is easily negated by monks, so if you take burning away immediately, you won't take damage from the second hit.

Sure if someone spams SF on you, you'll get damaged, but in the mean time, most eles can be killed quickly. You get 1 warrior, or derv, or assassin, or ranger, or any other meelee damage dealer on an ele, and they usually go down. Especially if they're using the standard SF fire build which leaves little room for protection/self healing.

It was already nerfed, anyway. remember that? Months ago? It was pretty well determined to be a good nerf; one that was coming. Yes, before the skill was just too powerful with it's fast recharge. But now, I don't see anything wrong with it.