Curse

glountz · Jun 27, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Here's my buff:
Thrill of Victory
5 energy 0.5 sec cast 8 sec recharge.
You strike target foe for +5...17 damage. If you have more health than this foe, he starts to bleed for 1...12 seconds.

XvArchonvX · Jun 27, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Power shot needs a buff. That I can acknowledge. Point Blank shot is spammable and if you have 16 expertise it has as much bonus damage as 16 Marksmanship bow attacks. The half range is kind of iffy though.

Thrill of Victory used to give 100 health if you land the killing blow on the target.

If you have 16 expertise you shouldn't be wielding a bow. You may get more bonus damage from Point Blank Shot with higher expertise, but you lose out on investing in Marksmanship, which increases your overall dps. If you are running with more marks than expertise (as most ranger bow builds do), then you will do more damage with Power Shot and get twice the range. Point Blank is by far worse than power shot.

As for Thrill of Victory, I think a buff that gives it an additional adrenaline gain would be fair and give the skill some more use in people's skillbars once again. *edit* just saw the post above me by Glountz and that change looks fair too.

RoadKill97 · Jun 27, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

See, the only problem when comparing it with hundred blades, skull crack, decapitate is that the latter three are all elites. And if there's any debate on which to take (thrill or one of those three), then clearly those skills are underpowered as elite skills.

(I'm not sure whether you were replying to me or to everyone, but anyway...)

You are wrong. See, we could have a serious debate on which of the following skills is better to take: Sever Artery or Crippling Slash. But does that make Crippling Slash underpowered?

No.

cellardweller · Jun 27, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I think you people are missing what the main strength of thrill of victory is - It is a direct attack in the tactics line with no drawbacks. When you have 0 or 9 in your weapon attibute and 16 in tactics (for glad defense/riposte farming for example) it suddenly becomes a great attack relative to other options.

I don't think it needs a buff at all.

glountz · Jun 27, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I think you people are missing what the main strength of thrill of victory is - It is a direct attack in the tactics line with no drawbacks. When you have 0 or 9 in your weapon attibute and 16 in tactics (for glad defense/riposte farming for example) it suddenly becomes a great attack relative to other options.

I don't think it needs a buff at all.

Yeah? And what about PvP? Buffing this skill to reasonnable levels for PvP will just enhance your tactics farming build.

LifeInfusion · Jun 27, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you have 16 expertise you shouldn't be wielding a bow. You may get more bonus damage from Point Blank Shot with higher expertise, but you lose out on investing in Marksmanship, which increases your overall dps. If you are running with more marks than expertise (as most ranger bow builds do), then you will do more damage with Power Shot and get twice the range. Point Blank is by far worse than power shot.

That's pretty true. I'm just saying it is not as bad as people make it out to be, given that narrow set of circumstances, like when running high Wilderness+Expertise with no or low marks (trapper/ toucher/beast master?). Power shot has 6 recharge which double that of Point blank shot. I'm not saying that Point blank shot is awesome...just that it has its (narrow) uses. Of course it is worse than most bow attacks in the Marksmanship line.

As for thrill of victory, farming is not a legitimate reason not to buff it...

cellardweller · Jun 28, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Yeah? And what about PvP? Buffing this skill to reasonnable levels for PvP will just enhance your tactics farming build.

If your weapon attirbute is much higher than your tactics skill, then you should never bring a tactics attack, and if it isn't then you need to to back to pvp warrior school. The only way this skill will be worthwhile in pvp is to buff it to the level where it will be overpowered on a non-warrior.

Div · Jun 28, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

(I'm not sure whether you were replying to me or to everyone, but anyway...)

You are wrong. See, we could have a serious debate on which of the following skills is better to take: Sever Artery or Crippling Slash. But does that make Crippling Slash underpowered?

No.

Apparently you didn't understand the argument. My point is that if you have to decide which skill (thrill vs elite) is the better one, then the elite is not that good to begin with. There is no question which skill is better in Sever vs Cripslash, and any debate between those two skills is most likely a Dragon Slash or YAA vs Cripslash debate, and not really between Sever and Cripslash. The fact that thrill of victory is good enough that you can seriously consider it over one of those elites without any other considerations is what makes the difference. No one would take Sever over Cripslash when just choosing between the two skills, so your point doesn't make any sense.

Especially in PvE, Skull crack is not going to be very effective. 9 adrenaline buildup just to daze a target that might already be dead soon? No thanks.

glountz · Jun 28, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If your weapon attirbute is much higher than your tactics skill, then you should never bring a tactics attack, and if it isn't then you need to to back to pvp warrior school. The only way this skill will be worthwhile in pvp is to buff it to the level where it will be overpowered on a non-warrior.

PvP warrior school uh?
1) A glad farming build does not have thrill of victory on its bar. Monsters have high HP, and you need to kill fast and in AoE, so you'll prefer Cyclone axe and its pals.
2) Steady Stance builds actually have more tactics than weapon mastery and were (and still are) used to death in PvP. Do they have to go to warrior PvP school?
3) Most people have lower strenght than weapon mastery, still they bring strenght attacks like Bull's strike or Protector's strike. Guess why is it not the case for tactics attacks? I'll give you a hint: because tactics attacks suck hard.

RoadKill97 · Jun 28, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Apparently you didn't understand the argument.

Then that makes two of us.

Quote:

My point is that if you have to decide which skill (thrill vs elite) is the better one, then the elite is not that good to begin with.

Yes, I understood that one. My point is that such a comparison is stupid to begin with. The another point was that seriously comparing a non-elite to an elite, which has a different use, does not mean that the elite is clearly underpowered. (I should have picked better skills for the example than Sever and Criplash, because those skills can actually be used for the same thing; to fuel Gash.) How about Thrill vs. YAA? That comparison would be as stupid as the one with Skull Crack.

Quote:

There is no question which skill is better in Sever vs Cripslash, and any debate between those two skills is most likely a Dragon Slash or YAA vs Cripslash debate, and not really between Sever and Cripslash. The fact that thrill of victory is good enough that you can seriously consider it over one of those elites without any other considerations is what makes the difference. No one would take Sever over Cripslash when just choosing between the two skills, so your point doesn't make any sense.

Really? Did you know that Sever is actually a better choice if the cripple doesn't matter? It's not as black and white as you say.

Now, Hundred Blades is clearly weak for an elite, but if I would have to pick that or Thrill of Victory without any other considerations, I would choose HB without flinching.

Thrill of Victory is a weak non-elite because its recharge is too long, the damage is conditional, and there is no secondary effect. (Compare the skill to Soldier's Strike.)

Quote:

Especially in PvE, Skull crack is not going to be very effective. 9 adrenaline buildup just to daze a target that might already be dead soon? No thanks.

Make no mistake, a single target daze is never very effective in general PvE. But it can be effective for dealing with some troublesome casters. And for that purpose, Skull Crack one of the best daze skills. The requirement of 9 adrenaline is not a problem at all, in fact, you could use the skill 2-3 times as often as a ranger can use Broad Head Arrow. I'm not, however, recommending to use Skull Crack - my point is that the skill is not underpowered, but it's not run because warriors need their skill slots, and especially their elite slot, for other stuff.

cellardweller · Jun 29, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

PvP warrior school uh?

Appologies, I didn't mean offense by that. It didn't sound anywhere near as patronising in my head when I was typing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

1) A glad farming build does not have thrill of victory on its bar. Monsters have high HP, and you need to kill fast and in AoE, so you'll prefer Cyclone axe and its pals.

Using an axe kind of makes glad/riposte farming kind of difficult. The particular example I'm refering to is for killing the grawl necromancers on the way up to the icebreaker farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

2) Steady Stance builds actually have more tactics than weapon mastery and were (and still are) used to death in PvP. Do they have to go to warrior PvP school?

And if there were spare energy and room for a straight damange attack in that bar, the attack of choice would be ToV, proving the point that its balanced!

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

3) Most people have lower strenght than weapon mastery, still they bring strenght attacks like Bull's strike or Protector's strike. Guess why is it not the case for tactics attacks?

Bulls stike and protectors strike both perfectly viable skills with 0 strength. The effect that puts them on a skillbar does not scale with attribute level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I'll give you a hint: because tactics attacks suck hard.

Exactly!! When you have strong defence in a line, by necessity, the attacks in it need to be scaled down!

Looking at your earlier example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Thrill of Victory
5 energy 0.5 sec cast 8 sec recharge.
You strike target foe for +5...17 damage. If you have more health than this foe, he starts to bleed for 1...12 seconds.

Put that on a Grenth's dervish and tell me if its still balanced. You've just added bleeding, AoE Damage and an extra enchant removed for basicly no cost and no extra time because of the attackspeed.

phool · Jun 29, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

tactics attacks suck hard.

Soldier's strike owns, excellent +damage and a strong conditional bonus combined with a recharge short enough for the only real limiter to be energy management (4 seconds is basically perfect for pve when using zealous). It has no utility element however making it basically a poor choice for a pvp warrior as far as energy-based skills go; it would only be attractive to a hammer warrior but power attack makes more sense there as strength is generally otherwise more desirable with hammers.

Steady Stance builds do have room for a pure damage attack, but pure damage attacks aren't as good as utilities for them (pious haste, watch yourself, rending touch, wild blow etc). Protector's, soldier's and bull's would all be preferable as attacks go, as would wild blow and intterupts. In pvp, warriors generally increase their damage more with utilities like bull's than +damage unless you've got half a team covering the utility aspect for them (crippling anthem paragons with mirror, rangers dshotting bsurge and wards, midline purging hex stacks, etc). As for the spike aspect thrill is basically usable, if you were running abnormally high tactics and could justify that, but only for a hammer, which are generally better used with high strength.

shove-crushing-thrill is a weak part of a weak build. If you want a spike build with low pressure that is able to spike in an adrenaline-denial heavy meta... you take an assassin, not a shove hammer warrior. There is no valid current use for thrill and certainly not on a steady stance build which is possibly the only valid pvp instance of running tactics on a par with weapon mastery.

around · Jun 29, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Really? Did you know that Sever is actually a better choice if the cripple doesn't matter? It's not as black and white as you say.

Cripple does matter though :/

Mhelnos Smiting Bro · Jun 29, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

I'd take Skull Crack over Thrill of Victory any day - if the choice is between those two.

So you would rather have a useless elite over a crap skill?
I know you say skill v skills Skull Crack is better[which I disagree still]
But in a build you get 1 elite I wouldn't be taking Skull Crack over Thrill...
Thrill wouldn't be that bad if they would just drop the hp>foe....
Mine as well just make it a tactics version of power attack imo...

RoadKill97 · Jun 30, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Cripple does matter though :/

Not always. Go kill something in normal mode PvE, and then tell me how much they kite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhelnos Smiting Bro

So you would rather have a useless elite over a crap skill?
I know you say skill v skills Skull Crack is better[which I disagree still]

Please do read my previous post, too.

Quote:

But in a build you get 1 elite I wouldn't be taking Skull Crack over Thrill...

"If the choice is between those two." It was Skull Crack or no elite at all.

Quote:

Thrill wouldn't be that bad if they would just drop the hp>foe....
Mine as well just make it a tactics version of power attack imo...

Soldier's Strike already exists.

iridescentfyre · Jul 01, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhelnos Smiting Bro

So you would rather have a useless elite over a crap skill?

All concerns about adrenaline cost and elite status aside, ask a monk or elem how useless Dazing is..

Osi Ri S · Jul 01, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

How about they change it to, if you have less PERCENT health than foe. It would make it more useable. So maybe a step in the right direction.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 03, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

[skill]Protector's Strike[/skill]

Bad? Are you on crack. Use this skill on a hammer.

Also Sun and Moon > 100 blades.

bathazard · Jul 03, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

[skill]Protector's Strike[/skill]

Bad? Are you on crack. Use this skill on a hammer.

Also Sun and Moon > 100 blades.

[skill]Protector's Strike[/skill]
16- strengh
scythe -9
wind-9
harriers haste
180dmg