Curse

Div · Jun 22, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

In limited efforts, I wasn't succeeding much in hard mode with a standard 3 x SF/MM primary/heroes group build of the sort that rocks in normal mode. Too squishy, and not killing the enemies fast enough.

This isn't necessarily a result of the nerf. You can take trash and still rock normal mode, whereas you'll get your ass handed to you if you run the same thing in HM. A 10% difference is barely noticeable (oh no it takes you 5 seconds to kill it instead of 4.5 now), and not killing the enemies fast enough is a result of them being a billion levels higher than they usually are.

GeniusLoci · Jun 22, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I think he means frenzy in pvp, where it's hands down about the best IAS buff around. In pve, you'd probably only use frenzy on a bow or with a spear. Where it's actually real good, as long as you're not sitting in touch range of your warriors.

As for SF, I reckon it's a poor nerf. Let's face it, it's no threat alone, it's only when used in numbers that it's scary. With 3 SFer's (which you get from any guild team or heroway), the nerf makes pretty much no difference at all. It's only the single ele looking to pug that get's hurt. Pity that.

With my paragon my Ele Hero spykes all the time - Anthem of Flame+Blazing Spear+Meloni's enchantment (kan't remember the name now) and they are burning most of the fight. I don't even have Blazing Finale yet, which is when they will burn 100% of the time.

As for Frenzy - yup, in PvP it's another story. Given how many useful elites my Paragon has Soldier's Fury is better choice for him. But warriors don't have such choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

well with the current burn time, without wand/offhand bonus'es, only actully hit 1 damage spike
so its 1 cast of sf to burn
glowing glaze
sf cast to spike
liquid flame
sf to burn
sf to spike

Mark of Rodgort? Immolate 1sec/SF spyke/Immolate/SF spyke... Kind of slow, huh? If you use MoR then Steam is another good adition, no need of 14 in water to get it to 6 seconds.

And I agree current burn time is OK, I was wrong.

Leonidas2 · Jun 22, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Oh noes! A skill doesn't work so good anymore as it used to be! What s hall we do now?!? We're totally desperate!!

Here's a tip for you: Use one of the other hundreds of skills?

Haha, totally agreed with you there.

At any rate, the nerf to SF was called for and I'm glad it happened, although it was probably done for more PvP implications than PvE. Either way, I never found much use to run the SF in hard mode. Hard mode enemies are too strong to have a large number of your team be damage with no defense. Sure the "They're on Fire!" trick works, but I vanquished 80% of my zones with hero/hench, the other 20% being with my ranger friend and heros. Earth and Air held my staple builds that carried me through. (I am legendary vanquisher...I'm not just spitting in the wind here)

That's not to say, of course, fire doesn't have its place. One fire ele can suffice. Zhed frequently ran savannah heat if I needed another slot to fill, which amounted for decent enough DPS.

The point is exactely how Yanman put it, find other skills. We don't have over 100 skills to only run 8 of them in every single zone of every single continent. Anet was merely trying to encourage elementalists to get an imagination to use a variety of builds.

mikez himself · Jun 22, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

um, i ran the typical SF build on my heros, wasnt that great, running a duel SH build with lots of AOE worked alot better tbh

Dutch Masterr · Jun 22, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

So 119 damage was "nerfed" to 106 damage.....TIME TO GO KILL MYSELF!

Does the 13 damage really hinder your gaming so much?

rista blodorn · Jun 22, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

So 119 damage was "nerfed" to 106 damage.....TIME TO GO KILL MYSELF!

Does the 13 damage really hinder your gaming so much?

Such a minor nerf that you kind of wonder why they bothered with it at all. Regardless the way I use SF it really has no impact on me at all. 2 SF ele's with some paragon support is still highly effective in PvE normal mode. And as other posters have commented SF can be used in hard mode to good effect (again as long as there are at least 2 ele's using it) there are other builds that are better for most hard mode missions.

Never really used in PvP so no real comment there other then to say there are still plenty of good ele PvP builds so if you were using SF you have no shortage of other options.

Turbobusa · Jun 22, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I went vanquishing today, and tbh, the 2 SF guildies were killing things so fast I could not tell where was the difference between pre-update SF and the new one.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jun 23, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

The SF nerf is considerable, but not debilitating. From 119 to 100 is alot over time, but not much in the initial cast. 5 casts of SF currently is 95 pts of damage less than previously. That says it all.

Yet, they also made intensity useless. I'd rather bring[skill=card]Glyph of Elemental Power[/skill] instead.

Yet, 2 SF eles will lay waste to alot of real estate if no one gets close enough to stop them. Also, take into account that if the 2 eles cast not simultaneously, but slightly behind each other, the burning occurs in abundance and regularly.

Pebbles · Jun 25, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Well it's certainly noticeable to me now. I had to make a new fire build useless in most applications to me now and alot of other elementalists I know in game agree with me.

In reality thats all there is to say about that matter.

Thankfully begin an ele for a long time I know what it's like to be utterly Obliterated and your neck broken by unthinking nerf happy Anet devs and then left for years in the grave marked "Broken classes". In contrast to some of the actions in the past this is pretty mild.

Still a punch to the head and a broken nose but not debilitating death.

One thing I don't understand why did they nerf frozen burst aswell? It's a defense spell that was rendered useless by it's aftercast (1.5secs you still get hit 4 times by a sin who will knock you down then and kill you).
and they then REDUCE it's effective duration? Ugh ¬_¬ I'm all for increasing diversity but thats impossible when any alternatives to fire magic keep getting shot out.

frojack · Jun 25, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Well Frozen was very good in pvp. It could slow virtually everyone to a crawl. Almost permanently. Yes it's a hex and it can be removed. What's the point if it just gets re-applied 5 seconds later? The double after-cast is the balancing factor though, as you can't exactly get away fast. Even still it wasn't much of a nerf. Functionality and effectiveness are still more or less the same.

The Blurred Vision nerf was a little harsh. However looking at the necro hex equivalents you can kinda understand why they did it. As long as Izzy buffs Swirling Aura considerably (50% block on 'everything', 30 second recharge) I don't mind this change much.

SF needs to be hit harder...

Div · Jun 25, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pebbles

Thankfully begin an ele for a long time I know what it's like to be utterly Obliterated and your neck broken by unthinking nerf happy Anet devs and then left for years in the grave marked "Broken classes".

Thankfully you haven't been a mesmer, sin, or paragon for a long time or else you'll actually know what it means to truly be unwanted in PvE. This is why I have no sympathy with cries about nerfs to eles.

Grammar · Jun 25, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Losing 13 damage is is hardly worth crying about.

The real nerf to the single PvE SF Ele was the increase of MoR's recharge (from 5 seconds to 15), not the loss of 13 damage.

Ouch! Why triple it? How about going for the double with 10 seconds? Yikes.

BDZeres · Jun 25, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

IMO SF needs to be hit harder. It is an AoE spell that always hit the target and with a fast casting time on top of that. Increase cast time to 2 seconds IMO.

Trylo · Jun 25, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

im so glad. they need to nerf it more. make the duration of burning up to maybe even 9 seconds at 16 with ~80 damage (maybe less). That FAR more useful in highlvl pve anyways and will also solve the "packs" in pvp. please just do that?

why does no one use SH in PvE? i can take out margonites, titans, shadow armies with just SH + SearHeat + TeinHeat. also you can control exactly where they go with the aoes.

Vagrant · Jun 25, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Thankfully you haven't been a mesmer, sin, or paragon for a long time or else you'll actually know what it means to truly be unwanted in PvE. This is why I have no sympathy with cries about nerfs to eles.

If you know what you're doing as a sin in pve, you can easily outperform any warrior, both in damage and defense (see my shiro build in the assassin forum). However, you are required to cater your build a little more delicately than a warrior.

That being said though, I have no experience as a mesmer or paragon in pve. I can see why paragons are considered undesirable, but mesmers have always seemed useful on my teams.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 25, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant

If you know what you're doing as a sin in pve, you can easily outperform any warrior, both in damage and defense (see my shiro build in the assassin forum). However, you are required to cater your build a little more delicately than a warrior.

Bah, I'd argue about performance, but that's for another thread. Regardless, performance doesn't equal popularity. Paras can be extremely effective in PvE too, yet hardly anyone uses them. Same case with sins/mesmers. That was his point, not that they're not effective.

Basically, people in general are ignorant and only use that which they know to work, instead of experimenting with the unknown.

Vagrant · Jun 26, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Bah, I'd argue about performance, but that's for another thread. Regardless, performance doesn't equal popularity. Paras can be extremely effective in PvE too, yet hardly anyone uses them. Same case with sins/mesmers. That was his point, not that they're not effective.

Basically, people in general are ignorant and only use that which they know to work, instead of experimenting with the unknown.

Good point, good point.

I love to tinker with things, so I personally enjoy unusual or self-designed builds.

GeniusLoci · Jun 26, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant

If you know what you're doing as a sin in pve, you can easily outperform any warrior, both in damage and defense (see my shiro build in the assassin forum). However, you are required to cater your build a little more delicately than a warrior.

That being said though, I have no experience as a mesmer or paragon in pve. I can see why paragons are considered undesirable, but mesmers have always seemed useful on my teams.

Just a $0.02
Two days ago I went in FoW with an Ele. It was his first time in group with Paragon. Now I am in top of his "for FoW" list as he was shocked to find how much easier is with constant like -50% damage, some regen, high criticals and Constant Burning on mobs (which helped greatly to my Ele Hero and his SF - only his first SF cast is not a spyke and only if he casts it before the warrior gets to his target).

holymasamune is right, compared to how easy was to get group with my Ele, my Paragon is... well, the first time I got to ToA I just stood there for 20 minutes, said something like "Oh, well, may be other time" and went to do something else. Illustrates every other occasion you can imagine as well.

Pwny Ride · Jun 26, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Savannah Heat was always better than SF, especially when combo'd with mark of rodgort.

GeniusLoci · Jun 26, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

Savannah Heat was always better than SF, especially when combo'd with mark of rodgort.

I just pointed build where SF is way better and not restricting in both time and area damage. So "always" = false.