Curse

LifeInfusion · Feb 23, 2011, 12:41 AM // 00:41

By Ural's Hammer is a shout version of Vengeance now. That means it can't be stripped.

If you're running a monk, that means you shouldn't be using UA for the res now. (if people are dying more often than 60s it might be a problem, slot BuH on someone and a hard res somewhere else.) That means UA's main advantage is gone.

So you could technically go healing burst, but Healing burst doesn't spot heal as well as a ER ele. It doesn't party heal as well as a Avatar of Dwayna Dervish spamming enchantments either, since those enchantments are easily getting 20 to 40+Heal/sec (50/6=8.33 just with whirling charge sans Lyssa's Haste; 50/4+50/15 with Lyssa's=15.8333), which is more than 13.7/s max from UA or a max of 12.75/s from Healing burst. In fact, all you need is Fleeting [email protected], Whirling charge, and Mirage [email protected] to get more than Healing Burst (50/10+50/6+50/10=18.333HP/s , before Lyssa's Haste). So you have your prots. The Avatar of Dwayna Dervish can slot Draw conditions (Grenth's Fingers would remove 2 [email protected] wind) and remove hex and put 6 in prot, but it can't pump prot without resorting to rending aura, staggering force, and dust cloak. That's why you have an ER.

I'm thinking an ER ele with Avatar of Dwayna Dervish could very well replace a 2 monk backline. After all, you only need 2 flash enchantments for the 50 heal at 15 Mysticism with the same frequency as 16DF+13 healing Healing Burst. (Whirling charge + Lyssa's haste @11 wind +an enchanting weapon or 3x 10s recharges or 2x 10s recharge + whirling charge, or 2 of the 4 flash enchants with 6 recharge). With 3 flash enchantments then you can out pressureheal a UA+DH+HD. If you need a spike heal, the ER ele can push out 200+ heals. Dervishes have Watchful Intervention and Imbue Health, but that's not as reliable or good.

Fate Crusher · Feb 23, 2011, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Healer's Boon monk says Hi.

Interesting question to bring up, but your dervish idea is ultimately asking someone to go afk. 108+ Heal Party from a Healer's Boon monk not only provides good party heal, but also very strong target healing, which your dervish won't do.

However, you have probably forgotten on purpose that GW1 still relies heavily not just on raw healing but on damage mitigation, like prots or wards. You'll drop like flies if you don't take this into account. There is no organised team build in PvE or PvP that doesn't have this.

Shayne Hawke · Feb 23, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

replace a 2 monk backline.

You can theorycraft all you like, but there are two big reason why this is almost undoubtedly not happening:

1. What else are monks going to do besides heal and prot in PvE? Smite? haha okay.

2. The dual-monk backline has been a staple of GW for years now and is hard coded into the brains of many players. Even making a shift to using an ER ele is impossible for some players. To have a party hitting PvE that doesn't carry a monk in the backline is not a likely scenario.

FoxBat · Feb 23, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

With a reliable source of SY this is very doable. People already yellowway (para + warriors) alot of the game, including elite zones. The only major downside to that approach is that it's slow. Dwayna dervs seem to have much higher healing potential, and they can do decent damage as well by just speccing scythe, pious fury, and getting some buffs like SoH, so it's possible. Don't expect it to change pugs, but add an imbagon, infuse or imbue health somewhere, and you can put together some successful team builds this way.

LifeInfusion · Feb 23, 2011, 04:15 AM // 04:15

To test this idea I ran a Minion Bomber (Olias with Prot spirit), Kahmu (Avatar of Dwayna +4 enchants + meditation + 2 empty slots , equipped with spear of enchanting), SoS rit with Mend body and soul + Spirit Light and went to vanquish an area in eye of the north on my AP Elementalist with YMLAD=FH!+ sin support. Provided Kahmu kept spamming, the party didn't go down in HP overall. However while without prots, people tended to get hit hard, since the zone I was in had Angorodon's which ignore prots, I lacked hex removal, and Mend body & soul isn't reliable. I bet if I had a ST rit instead of the minionbomber and a AoD dervish it would've done ok, but it would be much less damage. It took marginally more time (10-20min) than a standard build I run with 1 monk hench.

A major problem is the hero doesn't like to recast AoD when it goes down unless you're fighting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

Healer's Boon monk says Hi.

Interesting question to bring up, but your dervish idea is ultimately asking someone to go afk. 108+ Heal Party from a Healer's Boon monk not only provides good party heal, but also very strong target healing, which your dervish won't do.

However, you have probably forgotten on purpose that GW1 still relies heavily not just on raw healing but on damage mitigation, like prots or wards. You'll drop like flies if you don't take this into account. There is no organised team build in PvE or PvP that doesn't have this.

Already proved UA +DH+HD>Healer's Boon unless you're running BiP necro on the healer's boon... 50HP every 2-3 seconds is going to outdo HB with 108 heal partys for 15 energy.

UA monks heal for more than HB monks and can drop 10 in prot if they run gift of [email protected]

Monk heroes can't prot for crap also and most of the standard hero (and PUG monk) builds run pure heal save for Seed of Life which is prot-like, so what are you getting at?

For example, your typical HB straight off PvXwiki:
WoH Hybrid: WoH, D-Kiss, Mend ailment, SoA, Prot spirit, Cure hex, Leech sig, power drain --> SoA, Prot spirit are redundant when you have a MinionBomber packing them
HB: HB, D-kiss, patient/ethereal, heaven's delight, cure hex, leech sig, power drain
UA: UA, d-kiss, patient, DH, HD, power drain, leech sig, optional

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You can theorycraft all you like, but there are two big reason why this is almost undoubtedly not happening:

1. What else are monks going to do besides heal and prot in PvE? Smite? haha okay.

2. The dual-monk backline has been a staple of GW for years now and is hard coded into the brains of many players. Even making a shift to using an ER ele is impossible for some players. To have a party hitting PvE that doesn't carry a monk in the backline is not a likely scenario.

There's no substitute for 2 monks in PvP. AoD (PvP) has no party heal and SY! doesn't exist.

However, in PVE Discordway, Spiritway, and Sabway set a precedent already. All a D/ AoD build would do is augment party healing without needing PwK pots + Life. It's got the problem of only having Watchful Intervention and Imbue Health as spike stopping, though, which is why I think an ER paired up with is more viable than a SoS rit hybrid and Minionbomber packing prot spirit+SoA+Aegis.

I run a monk too, but whenever I play anything that has a better version (i.e ele damage in HM, or a pure prot monk in PVE) I ask myself why I'm running inferior stuff.

ElnoreVarda · Feb 23, 2011, 07:20 AM // 07:20

In PvE, you never need a primary Mo. As mentioned, several other classes have the capabilities to play as primary "healers"; eles, rits, dervishes and necs to come mind, but any caster can take the role as primary "healer".

In fact, you can play teams without any proper healing at all; you can bring so much migation that off-healing from skills like AoR will provide you with all the health you need.

The reason why monks seem lacking is because what they gain in versatility they lose in raw power. You can still do anything with a two monk backline, however it forces your team mates to leeroy less.

Lukyboy · Feb 23, 2011, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

By Ural's Hammer is a shout version of Vengeance now. That means it can't be stripped.

If you're running a monk, that means you shouldn't be using UA for the res now. (if people are dying more often than 60s it might be a problem, slot BuH on someone and a hard res somewhere else.) That means UA's main advantage is gone.

UA's main advantage gone? you're kidding right? Instant teleport res with 100% health and energy and boosts my healing up by 50-ish% versus an insta cast res that makes my team die 30 seconds later...

I don't know why people try to use BuH, maybe because it just screams GGGGIIIIIIMMMMMIIIIIIICCCCCCKKKKK!!!!
But you said it yourself, It's a shout version of Vengeance. Vengeance is not a good skill. Making it a shout will still not make it a good skill. It takes up a PvE skill slot AND I still need someone else to hard res.

Kunder · Feb 27, 2011, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukyboy

UA's main advantage gone? you're kidding right? Instant teleport res with 100% health and energy and boosts my healing up by 50-ish% versus an insta cast res that makes my team die 30 seconds later...

I don't know why people try to use BuH, maybe because it just screams GGGGIIIIIIMMMMMIIIIIIICCCCCCKKKKK!!!!
But you said it yourself, It's a shout version of Vengeance. Vengeance is not a good skill. Making it a shout will still not make it a good skill. It takes up a PvE skill slot AND I still need someone else to hard res.

Its not a gimmick if its an uncounterable permanent +33% damage increase and 100% health/energy restore every 30s.

Vengeance is bad because its an enchant (=removable), cast time (=wait for res), and single target (=really bad). Vengeance is comparable to BUH power-wise in the same way Great Dwarf Armor is comparable to Save Yourselves, I.E. not at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You can theorycraft all you like, but there are two big reason why this is almost undoubtedly not happening:

1. What else are monks going to do besides heal and prot in PvE? Smite? haha okay.

2. The dual-monk backline has been a staple of GW for years now and is hard coded into the brains of many players. Even making a shift to using an ER ele is impossible for some players. To have a party hitting PvE that doesn't carry a monk in the backline is not a likely scenario.

This. Even though Eles have outclassed monks in spot healing for a long time there's still a 50/50 chance of any ER ele getting kicked whenever they ping an ER build in most areas. Rits still have problems getting into groups as a healer occasionally, monk=heal is so deeply ingrained on nearly every PvE player in guild wars.

Quote:

To test this idea I ran a Minion Bomber (Olias with Prot spirit), Kahmu (Avatar of Dwayna +4 enchants + meditation + 2 empty slots , equipped with spear of enchanting), SoS rit with Mend body and soul + Spirit Light and went to vanquish an area in eye of the north on my AP Elementalist with YMLAD=FH!+ sin support. Provided Kahmu kept spamming, the party didn't go down in HP overall. However while without prots, people tended to get hit hard, since the zone I was in had Angorodon's which ignore prots, I lacked hex removal, and Mend body & soul isn't reliable. I bet if I had a ST rit instead of the minionbomber and a AoD dervish it would've done ok, but it would be much less damage. It took marginally more time (10-20min) than a standard build I run with 1 monk hench.

Keep in mind that AoD heals minions, so it doesn't combine well with MBers. Its ridiculous for an MM though, especially multiple MMs.