Curse

Rhamia Darigaz · May 18, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratman

Personally i prefer the assassin because i always hate it when i need to prepare myself for battle with enchantments.

you don't use critical agility in pve?

Catchphrase · May 19, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

The reason why dervishes are sub par to sins/wars is that they are trying to spam attacks when most of their skills are enchantments and their primary attribute designed for enchantments. Instead of competing with sins/wars at what they were designed to do(attack spamming) having dervishes better utilize their enchantments/primary attribute for a secondary source of damage would even the classes out. And warriors are more reliable compared to both these classes but they have little variation in play.

Precisely.

reaper with no name · May 19, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

That would be the best option, IF the buff was good enough. But you'd have to make enchantments have almost no recharge times, significantly lower energy costs, lower cast times, armor-ignoring damage, quick-activation spammable removals with extra damage than Pious Assault does right now, and somehow make it so that only primary dervishes can pull it off.

Good luck with all that. Remember, it has to either A) beat scythe sins in damage, or B) get near the scythe sin's damage while providing something else useful to the party. If it doesn't do either of these two things, then the dervish will still be just as useless as it is right now, defeating the purpose of any buffs.

snaek · May 19, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

But you'd have to make enchantments have almost no recharge times, significantly lower energy costs, lower cast times

...and have them abused by mo/d like we've seen in the past, or possibly by e/d, n/d, even a/d, etc.

they need to focus on mysticism. they can buff scythe/wind/earth skills if they want to, but mysticism is what needs the biggest changes.

saint666 · May 19, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

...and have them abused by mo/d like we've seen in the past, or possibly by e/d, n/d, even a/d, etc.

they need to focus on mysticism. they can buff scythe/wind/earth skills if they want to, but mysticism is what needs the biggest changes.

You can fix that if you make mysticism reduce enchantment energy cost in addition to energy gain when enchantments ends. That way only dervishes can use the enchantments at an efficient level, while everyone else has to pay high energy costs to use them.

"For every 2 ranks of mysticism, you gain 1 energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends, for each rank of mysticism, the energy cost of your dervish enchantments are decreased by 4%."

-Makai- · May 20, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Sins swing scythes like blind children attempting to play stickball. Go with style.

NerfHerder · May 21, 2010, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

they need to focus on mysticism. they can buff scythe/wind/earth skills if they want to, but mysticism is what needs the biggest changes.

I think this is the key to balancing Dervishes. Change AoHM to mysticism and give mysticism a small buff. The whole premise of the Dervish being the Holy Warrior aka enchantment driven tank, is that it should be allowed to do the amount of damage an Assassin or Warrior could do but in a different way.

If done right, I think the Dervish would be capable of more damage than the Assassin, but in a more complex way than the typical 123 Assassin(ie enchantment juggling).

We can only wait another 6 months to find out

Zefie · Jun 22, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Personally I hope this update will buff the dervish for pve. I love my dervish and always will but the main problem I have is the fact that I cant get in any good groups for anything pve related because the dervish doesnt really have any "uber" builds used by everybody. so there is no UW, FoW, or anything else I can really enjoy on my derv. more than anything i just with people would appreciate and get a little more creative with the dervish class. There's still much untapped potential.

Steps_Descending · Jul 05, 2010, 03:26 AM // 03:26

To come back on tôpic for the OP :

I guess sin assure you to have a good class what ever happens. Even if you probably won't get full potential from scythe. If you want to stay with an attack skill base gameplay.

Derv will probably move away from attack spam and go back to enchant juggling. If you prefer an off-beat caster gameplay, that's it. My guess is that they will move closer to a enchantment-combo based gameplay. Cast 1-2 enchant, go up front -> 2-3 attack skill to remove those enchants = lots of (hopefully) big numbers. With probably 1 or 2 "maintained dps" combo.
Derv will probably have the most interesting gameplay of the 2 and probably have more utility (in a general build). But will probably be more spike and less efficient than sin.

So? fresh gameplay or good ol' 1-2-3 spam to death?

Nechrond · Jul 22, 2010, 10:09 AM // 10:09

@Catchphrase:

In response to your suggestions: Hands off my Arcane Zeal!

I use it a lot to spam Mystic Healing. Works quite well in AB, since you can stand outside the fortress and heal your teammates while they're fighting inside.

I I Dreamweaver I I · Jul 23, 2010, 12:40 PM // 12:40

it all comed down to the update really doesnt , area net could do something amazing or something really stupid knowing them ,and who says that youll even like the update if it makes them better

GrimmNinja · Aug 02, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

judges insight and strength of honor on a crit scythe sin really removes the need for aohm if it is moved to myst.

The Josip · Aug 03, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimmNinja

judges insight and strength of honor on a crit scythe sin really removes the need for aohm if it is moved to myst.

I don't see the logic since Dervish can use both as well.

Also, Judge's Insight is not so good on a hero, they dont use it properly. I guess you can micro..

Kaleban · Feb 04, 2011, 04:53 AM // 04:53

One concept that is missing is that a Dervish is an enchanted warrior with a big scythe.

Some of the issues can be simply resolved such as skill buffs and balancing, but some of the mechanics need to change.

Mysticism, if its going to fuel enchant juggling/bombing as a replacement or even augmentation of melee, needs to have a cost reduction as well as energy gain at the end. Much like Expertise, but make it cover only Dervish enchants.

Second, why not make many of the dervs enchants add weapon damage or conditions as a secondary or tertiary effect? Like AoHM, a skill like Dust Cloak could cause weapon hits to inflict more damage (Earth) and/or short term Blindness in addition to its cast and end effects. Since the Derv would be loading up on enchants, each skills weapon damage bonus could be a small range, but with two or three should equal say Order of Pain or Judge's Insight.

This would enable a primary Derv to choose to either enchant bomb, or maintain the enchants to add to weapon damage. And the weapon damage part for all enchants would fail with Mysticism 4 or less. In this way, MANY if not all of the dervs enchants could be made multi-function, where a derv could load up, start swinging, gaining bonus damage and effects that no other class could replicate due to lack of Mysticism, and at the end blow them all off with an enchant strip like a mini nuke.

On the subject of AoHM, the simple and easy fix is to change its functionality to 4 seconds plus 1 second for every two ranks in Mysticism. And it could self-renew whenever hitting more than one foe, to go along with the Derv's focus.

And if the Derv is ever going to enchant bomb effectively enough to compete with physical damage classes like the war and sin, most of the available enchants will have to have short recharges, say 5s, with around 10 to 20s durations. And probably MOST controversial would be to change all their cast times to zero, so that they can be cast while in combat without breaking attacks.

Basically, my vision of the Dervish is a warrior who rolls into combat while casting enchantments on the fly, doing big hurt with the scythe and the augmentations, and then nuking at point blank. His total damage numbers don't even need to meet those of the other physicals, especially if the effects of the various enchants (conditions, etc.) remain attached to both the beginning cast, end cast, and weapon augment.

But certainly, the Dervish should not have to compete with the existing classes for their niche roles, rather design it so that the playstyle is significantly different. So to recap:

1. Mysticism becomes Expertise like but for Dervish skills only (all), with the end gain for enchants ending. Energy costs could be tweaked to make it more difficult for non-Dervs to use and abuse Dervish skills.

2. Dervish enchant skills need a tertiary weapon effect, adding a theme damage (earth, cold, lightning, etc.) based on the skills conceptual theme. This extra damage does not come into effect with less than 4 Mysticism.

3. Dervish enchants become insta-cast with no aftercast, to allow constant casting and stripping while fighting in close quarters. Some skills that are solely buffs, such as ZV and Avatars, would still have cast/aftercast.

4. AoHM, like CA and TNTF, would have the 4+1/2 mechanic bound to Mysticism, with self renewal on hitting multiple foes.

ensoriki · Feb 04, 2011, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Dervishes are a stable profession choice, Assassins are not.
Sure skill updates are less but except more Assassin nerfs since we've been getting kicked the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over once Factions was released and the PvP community had the PvE assassin nerfed (when it was already struggling in PvE) over and over again, and those issues were not reverted with the PvE/PvP split.

Really the assassin now has 3 specific things it does. Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse, castersin isn't doing so well anymore.
That's it.

The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession. After the update they should be even more stable.
If your hoping out for the stability, after the update the Dervish should be the choice.

However as a huge fan of the assassin class though it's practically unrecognizable from what has been throughout the years, the Dervish should be the choice. Of course really it's hard to say because well it depends on what they actually do with the Dervish.

The assassin should've gotten a big update itself a long damn time ago.

Kaleban · Feb 04, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Dervishes are a stable profession choice, Assassins are not.
Sure skill updates are less but except more Assassin nerfs since we've been getting kicked the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over once Factions was released and the PvP community had the PvE assassin nerfed (when it was already struggling in PvE) over and over again, and those issues were not reverted with the PvE/PvP split.

Really the assassin now has 3 specific things it does. Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse, castersin isn't doing so well anymore.
That's it.

The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession. After the update they should be even more stable.
If your hoping out for the stability, after the update the Dervish should be the choice.

However as a huge fan of the assassin class though it's practically unrecognizable from what has been throughout the years, the Dervish should be the choice. Of course really it's hard to say because well it depends on what they actually do with the Dervish.

The assassin should've gotten a big update itself a long damn time ago.

I have a Sin and a Derv, and just judging from the content on PvXWiki, your assertions are baseless, as the Sin has considerably more Meta penetration than the Derv, who has one.

Also, the Sin's abilities are more self consistent, with a great primary attribute that contributes to every build barring runners and casting farming builds.

Given that the major update to the Sin was nerfing Shadow Form to no longer be an uber-skill, its hard to reconcile your claims of the profession needing a big update. Its got great survivability in the PvE skills, and can outdamage every other physical class in the game by a large margin.

Hardly an argument for a class needing help, whereas the Dervish is in drastic need of some major buffing and HOPEFULLY some mechanics changes that will, if not compete at least make it somewhat attractive beyond the cool armors and cool dance flip. As it stands now, the Dervish has no role that another class cannot do better and with greater efficiency and survivability.

All I'm hoping for is that ANet closes this gap a little, and makes the Derv into the hybrid melee/caster he's supposed to be, instead of relying on attack skill spam alone to accomplish anything.

ensoriki · Feb 05, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

The dervish can have less notable builds but they play at closer efficiency. It's a more stable profession

Way of the master abuse, Shadow form abuse, Death blossom abuse,

Assassin builds legit are exactly what I said they are.
Your Meta builds, the great builds, all fall under 3 skills. WoTM abuse, SF abuse, and DB abuse. Their instable coming from the idea that their efficiency is dependent on 1 of 3 skills whether they are Meta or not.

The dervish scythe isn't Meta because the assassin does it better however the dervish has less gap between it's builds then the Assassin does.
Hell if the goal was just to make Dervishes have meta shit, that's stupid damn easy.

Consider how everyone is just fine staying with 3 crux skills for assassins. If the goal was just making Dervishes at a "Meta" level, that's not hard, dart board buffs do that shit all the time.

Kaleban · Feb 05, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Assassin builds legit are exactly what I said they are.
Your Meta builds, the great builds, all fall under 3 skills. WoTM abuse, SF abuse, and DB abuse. Their instable coming from the idea that their efficiency is dependent on 1 of 3 skills whether they are Meta or not.

The dervish scythe isn't Meta because the assassin does it better however the dervish has less gap between it's builds then the Assassin does.
Hell if the goal was just to make Dervishes have meta shit, that's stupid damn easy.

Consider how everyone is just fine staying with 3 crux skills for assassins. If the goal was just making Dervishes at a "Meta" level, that's not hard, dart board buffs do that shit all the time.

I wasn't saying that the merit of a profession is its number of meta builds according to PvXWiki, I was using that as an example of build diversity throughout the community.

And you keep saying that all Sin builds are based on 3 different skills, but the meta for them has changed over time, to include elites like Moebius and others, not to mention Seeping in PvP.

The Dervish has ONE build that is accepted as the best in PvE, and that is the Zealous attack spammer, with all others falling short. You can do the Soldier's Stance build, but that is dependent on a secondary Elite, indicating the class isn't as "stable" as the Sin, whatever that means.

You can run a Wounding Strike build in PvP, but that's generally inefficient to other more survivable and efficient professions.

You're right, the Dervish has less gap, in fact it has no gap because it only has ONE, whereas the Sin has several. To me, that says the Dervish needs attention to increase build diversity, not give more attention to a class that uses a variety of builds throughout the various gameplay types (i.e. the Sin).

ensoriki · Feb 06, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

And you keep saying that all Sin builds are based on 3 different skills, but the meta for them has changed over time, to include elites like Moebius and others, not to mention Seeping in PvP.

Thats been true for every profession. Professions fall in & out of grace all the time.

Quote:

You're right, the Dervish has less gap, in fact it has no gap because it only has ONE, whereas the Sin has several. To me, that says the Dervish needs attention to increase build diversity, not give more attention to a class that uses a variety of builds throughout the various gameplay types (i.e. the Sin).

thats true only if you believe PvX to be the only "truth" of what is a good build.
Outside of current efficiency the Dervish is less linear, after the updtae, considering where the Assassin is in it's life time; The dervish should be better off after the update than the assassin, who's just gotten bandaid fixes over it's issues.

Kaleban · Feb 07, 2011, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Thats been true for every profession. Professions fall in & out of grace all the time.

thats true only if you believe PvX to be the only "truth" of what is a good build.
Outside of current efficiency the Dervish is less linear, after the updtae, considering where the Assassin is in it's life time; The dervish should be better off after the update than the assassin, who's just gotten bandaid fixes over it's issues.

Thats true, however since the advent of Nightfall, both PvE and PvP options for the Dervish have been extremely limited, especially when compared to the Assassin. Including farming, general, PvE, PvP, and specific dungeon builds, I probably had well over 20 or 30 Sin builds at one time. As for the Dervish, maybe 5 to 10. And those 10 were not very different, usually just a different elite.

As I said, I don't believe PvXWiki to be the truth of the build community, but it IS a good metric which to gauge the community's interest at large in a profession in general. If "meta" and "great" builds for Sins outnumber Dervs 5 to 1, you know there is a balance issue, especially when some builds are basically Dervs with Critical Strikes.

And your comment makes no sense, seeing as how we have no idea what or how ANet will change the Dervish class, it could be a complete mechanics revamp or simply making AoHM unusable by anyone but primary Dervs. And I'm unsure what you mean by "less linear" unless you're specifically referring to attack skill chains of the Sin, but even those are subject to quite a bit of modification, whereas the Dervish pretty much as the same three attack skills glued to his bar regardless of area or enemy.