Curse

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Translation: I don't have a point, everyone here is contraddicting me, I can't bring any argument, so I'll resort to insults.

I'll go find a reading course and improve.

I'm pretty sure you'll still have no argument when I'm back, and keep on twisting maths to your likings.

Actually I have a point that's sitting right in front of you, but you seem to be ignoring it because math is too hard, so make sure to take one of those courses too.

That equation is made by some who is defending 100 blades btw.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Actually I have a point that's sitting right in front of you, but you seem to be ignoring it because math is too hard, so make sure to take one of those courses too.

That equation is made by some who is defending 100 blades btw.

I repeat, the equation states that Warriors and Sins can have comparable AoE damage rates in conditions that are pretty easy to fulfil, even in general PvE.

Under 4, the Sin is better - still not "leagues ahead"
Over 4, 100b is more advantageous.

In my experience, I tend to be in the second scenario more often than not. So, Sins are quicker and have higher DPS in single target contexts. When the size of the mob increases, other options for AoE can be more effective.

Also, 100b operates on swings, not on hits. Fail to hit with DB and the whole combo is gone, together with all of your AoE damage.

So?

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Under 4, the Sin is better - still not "leagues ahead"
Over 4, 100b is more advantageous.

In my experience, I tend to be in the second scenario more often than not. So, Sins are quicker and have higher DPS in single target contexts. When the size of the mob increases, other options for AoE can be more effective.

Also, 100b operates on swings, not on hits. Fail to hit with DB and the whole combo is gone, together with all of your AoE damage.

So?

lol the average adjacent mobs a melee character is going to hit each time he swings is 2 (and don't be a liar and tell me that you somehow have 4+ adjacent mobs throughout the whole fight in every battle even after your ball dies). If 100blades is as efficient as all you warriors claim, then most of the battle is spend cleaning up the casters / ranged mobs rather than hitting awesome pawsome damages against a ball. Tell me how close the dps is when you only have 2 adjacent mobs to hit.

If you wanna talk about how reliable each class is, 100b aoe potential completely disappears the moment you are blinded or have a blinding hex (or anything else that hinders Whirlwind attack), while assassins only need to hit 1 target to reach their max damage potential and already take asuran scan as a standard.

Let's not forget that a warrior at max damage potential has a 25% speed penalty, so god forbid your 9 damage aoe against 3-4 mobs doesn't instantly kill them and 1 mob decides to run away (and yes that's what happens when you use aoe, so don't try to tell me that 100blades helps you hold aggro unless you're playing normal mode). Then at the end of the fight when most monsters are dead, warrior dps takes a drastic dip when you have no adjacent targets to bounce 100b off of and you probably have to chase after them with 75% movement speed.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

If you wanna talk about how reliable each class is, 100b aoe potential completely disappears the moment you are blinded or have a blinding hex (or anything else that hinders Whirlwind attack), while assassins only need to hit 1 target to reach their max damage potential and already take asuran scan as a standard.

Ok, so let's play your game and go back to the infamous equation: it takes a whole combo of four Assassin skills - the attacks mentioned + Moebius Strike to spam DB - AND Asuran Scan to avoid missing to equate WWA+100b(+ the eventual S&M) in a real-life scenario, not to mention AoE through 100b is ready to go on the very first hit, isn't blocked, is immune to Blind. Oh, and Asuran Scan is quite standard on many Warrior bars as well, so that point is invalid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Let's not forget that a warrior at max damage potential has a 25% speed penalty, so god forbid your 9 damage aoe against 3-4 mobs doesn't instantly kill them and 1 mob decides to run away.

Same happens to DB spam: a mob running away will be missed by the AoE damage, and you can't hit him right away unless you start your chain back. Under the effects of MoP, there a fairly higher chance your mobs will scatter even befor you can hit with DB, while 100b operates on first hit and chances of fleeing enemies are much minor than with a Sin.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ok, so let's play your game and go back to the infamous equation: it takes a whole combo of four Assassin skills - the attacks mentioned + Moebius Strike to spam DB - AND Asuran Scan to avoid missing to equate WWA+100b(+ the eventual S&M) in a real-life scenario, not to mention AoE through 100b is ready to go on the very first hit, isn't blocked, is immune to Blind. Oh, and Asuran Scan is quite standard on many Warrior bars as well, so that point is invalid.

-Moebius Strike? So much for experiencing both and getting your facts straight. No wonder you think warriors are close to assassins. (only 3 skills btw)
-Also the warrior calculations were based on already having Flail active for free (or using enraging charge right off the bat in which case you're certainly screwing yourself after your ball is dead), For great justice, whirlwind attack, hundred blades, AND sun and moon slash. (what's that.. 6 skills?)

Asuran scan only works against 1 target... assassin only needs to hit 1 target.... warrior needs to hit every adjacent target with WWA... This is either some effective trolling or a genuine idiot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Same happens to DB spam: a mob running away will be missed by the AoE damage, and you can't hit him right away unless you start your chain back.

Actually mobs have no reason to run away since the assassin does no aoe damage prior to casting DB and even if they run away, DB does guaranteed damage against foe and all adjacent foes as long as the casting animation starts, even if they move far away from adjacent throughout the animation (something WWA won't do).

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Actually mobs have no reason to run away since the assassin does no aoe prior to casting DB and even if they run away, DB will still hit all those adjacent at the time of casting.

100b doesn't cause any scattering. MoP does. MoP will trigger on each hit of your Dagger chain, potentially causing scattering.

MoP is a must when going AoE with melee characters. MoP activates a bazillion times with 100b, much less so with any Dagger chain, and that alone makes 100b worth playing against any group, even smaller ones. Out of context, DB as a skill might do more damage on less than 6, 4 or whatever ammount of enemies, but you can't take MoP out of the equation. Keyword: team-based game. Synergies > Build Wars

Whatever... If you don't like Warriors, that's fine. No one is forcing you to play a Warrior, and judging by your comments, you likely never did.

Just quit being a fanboy, play whatever you like, ponder your words better (you still couldn't prove how Sins are "leagues ahead" then the competition... Thy have higher DPS in a lot of circumstances, but that's it)

Personally, I find Warriors, Sins and Ders so pleasantly different at being melee character, and so insanely strong in this melee-centered game, I wouldn't even bother comparing them. Each has its way, its playstyle and strong points. Neither is universally stronger than the others, and I'm so glad we've been given such a broad choice.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Whatever... If you don't like Warriors, that's fine. No one is forcing you to play a Warrior, and judging by your comments, you likely never did.

Just quit being a fanboy, play whatever you like, ponder your words better (you still couldn't prove how Sins are "leagues ahead" then the competition... Thy have higher DPS in a lot of circumstances, but that's it)

Way to ignore every other point I gave.

Whatever... If you don't like Assasins, that's fine. No one is forcing you to play an assassin, and judging by your comments, you likely never did or you're mentally inept.

Fanboy? Why would I want more sins in the game if I played a sin smart one? What if I want more SF sins to tank DoAsc for my mesmer? I'm not the one who has 4 warriors and ignores every fact that's handed to him on a silver platter. Warrior fanboy much?

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Way to ignore every other point I gave.

Judging by your impression of the assassin, you either never played one or you're mentally inept.

Fanboy? I'm not the one with 4 warriors who ignores every fact that gets thrown in his face. Why would I want more sins in the game if I played a sin you idiot? What if I want more SF sins to tank DoAsc for my mesmer? Why not respond to my other points? warrior fanboy much?

Sorry if typing while you do makes me a fanboy, or mental inept for that matter. You edited your post while I posted, but whatever, your pitiful insults can't touch me: it's usually people with no arguments who rely on insults.

Let's go.

- You don't need WWA at all to do AoE under 100b, and you can activate it anyway as long as your target doesn't block it. So while Asuran Scan is a NECESSITY for a Sin not to have the combo screwed, it is not at all for 100b to work. That goes under Usability.
- Moebius is fairly common as an option to spam DB, that's why I mentioned it. Still, whatever skill you chain DB with, you need to 1) Hit 2) Chain Skills 3) Start the chain anew on the next target. If any of those goes wrong, your damage potential is hit. That goes under Usability.
- You still forget MoP, the fact that that alone makes 100b more dangerous than the whole bar you need for DB as it triggers on each attack AND the bonus damage dealt by 100b from the very first hit. Synergies are valuable in my book, drooling on yellow numbers is stupid IMHO. That goes under Usability.
- In the equation Critical Agility or whatever IAS is given as mantained and unremoved. So, let's do without IAS for a moment: you'll need 3 (successful) attacks to merely equate 100b + WWA on mobs bigger than 4, and need Asuran Scan to avoid potential blocks which would hinder a 100b build much less than any Dagger chain.

You have a strange definition of "silver platter", right now you've just brought highly debatable arguments and just gone vague when contraddicted. Looks to me you're just grasping at straws and insulting people. As I said, Sins can have higher DPS than a Warrior in a lot of circumstances and no one has yet denied it. It just doesn't make Sins "leagues ahead" anyone.

Oh, anyway... Just to use your own word: "Popular opinion" got you contraddicted in this thread, all the contributors of the thread disagreeing with you.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Sorry if typing while you do makes me a fanboy, or mental inept for that matter. You edited your post while I posted, but whatever, your pitiful insults can't touch me: it's usually people with no arguments who rely on insults.

Let's go.

- You don't need WWA at all to do AoE under 100b, and you can activate it anyway as long as your target doesn't block it. So while Asuran Scan is a NECESSITY for a Sin not to have the combo screwed, it is not at all for 100b to work. That goes under Usability.
- Moebius is fairly common as an option to spam DB, that's why I mentioned it. Still, whatever skill you chain DB with, you need to 1) Hit 2) Chain Skills 3) Start the chain anew on the next target. If any of those goes wrong, your damage potential is hit. That goes under Usability.
- You still forget MoP, the fact that that alone makes 100b more dangerous than the whole bar you need for DB as it triggers on each attack AND the bonus damage dealt by 100b from the very first hit. Synergies are valuable in my book, drooling on yellow numbers is stupid IMHO. That goes under Usability.
- In the equation Critical Agility or whatever IAS is given as mantained and unremoved. So, let's do without IAS for a moment: you'll need 3 (successful) attacks to merely equate 100b + WWA on mobs bigger than 4, and need Asuran Scan to avoid potential blocks which would hinder a 100b build much less than any Dagger chain.

Oh, anyway... Just to use your own word: "Popular opinion" got you contraddicted in this thread, all the contributors of the thread disagreeing with you.

Clearly I can't touch you since you decided to post this pathetic response.

-You need WWA + 100blades if you want to do comparable dps to a sin vs 4 targets. (Do tell me how much dps you do vs 4 targets without WWA if that isn't too difficult for you) Why is that so hard to understand? Asuran scan is an option for sin to have 100% reliable damage while 100blades warriors have no such option. Again, why is that so hard to understand? (LOL I just read my post again and saw that I already wrote this. Was that just your lack of reading ability or are you actually retarded?)
-Fairly common if you like to cripple yourself. Do you not know how asuran scan works? Remind me how 100% hit chance can fail?
-We've already determined that you have no problem with killing a ball. What happens to your dps after your ball is dead again?
-....are you serious?..... could you at least read over your own posts before writing stuff like this? (For some reason I know you're not gonna understand this so I'll spell it out for you in herp derp language. 100BLADES AOE. WWA AOE. AOE + AOE = BIG NUMBER. MISS AOE = SMALL NUMBER. DERPDERPDERP)

Ya all the contributers of the thread are butthurt warrior fanboys like you. Keep posting dude, your work is ground breaking.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Ya all the contributers of the thread are butthurt warrior fanboys like you. Keep posting dude, your work is ground breaking.

Ok, the Sin is leagues ahead everything. It's clearly the best at everything. Everything else is pathetic and useless. Anyone thinking otherwise is a poor idiot or mental inept.

Happy now?

Enough for me with this thread, OP likely chose his professions weeks ago and I really don't care about your one-sided, biased opinion. I find it IRONIC that, while I appreciate Sins and their playstyle and just invited you to moderate words (again, if you think Sins are "leagues ahead" Warriors in every context you either can't calibrate your speech or can't play a Warrior at all), you just ignorantly bashed anything you don't play and clearly don't know enough to judge. You obviously don't have what it takes to have a decent conversation. Talk about butthurt fanboys...

Enjoy your Sin while I enjoy all of my characters, Sin and Warrior included.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Enough for me with this thread, OP likely chose his professions weeks ago and I really don't care about your one-sided, biased opinion. I find it IRONIC that, while I appreciate Sins and their playstyle and just invited you to moderate words (again, if you think Sins are "leagues ahead" Warriors in every context you either can't calibrate your speech or can't play a Warrior at all), you just ignorantly bashed anything you don't play and clearly don't know enough to judge. You obviously don't have what it takes to have a decent conversation. Talk about butthurt fanboys...

Enjoy your Sin while I enjoy all of my characters, Sin and Warrior included.

Your compelling argument is clear and concise in addressing the points that were raised, which makes me reconsider my rude and ignorant words.

If everyone was so good at addressing points rather than changing the subject, shifting blame, and sometimes (god forbid) ignoring evidence altogether, then arguments wouldn't exist on this forum.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

facts straight? plenty of math in this thread. clearly you've read it

takes at least 4 (with rank14 SoH) mobs for a war to do the same dps as a sin (assuming sin doesn't crit and doesn't double hit from dagger mastery). at least 6 mobs without SoH. any less and the sin is leagues ahead of the war. yep... sounds pretty close to me

You are wrong. If you look at the equation, both classes procs SoH 7 times thus making the Warrior equal/superior even without SoH at four targets. Also I factored in dual-striking and compensated for the fact that I didn't include Crits. Assassins get 0.75s longer to do their combo and I look only in total damage not DPS, Assassins get a 50% dual-strike ratio instead of 28%, I didn't calculate the fact that skills use the max base damage which would have benefited the Warrior and I didn't factor in Strengths inherent benefit.

If you are going to use my math to disprove someone, at least use it right.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

You are wrong. If you look at the equation, both classes procs SoH 7 times thus making the Warrior equal/superior even without SoH at four targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

Conclusion = A 100b Warrior does approximately 697 damage in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.
An Assassin does approximately 690.95 in one combo versus a group of four while under the effect of SoH.

keystrokes yo

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 08:11 PM // 20:11

What? I did the calculations assuming both classes had the same buffs and both classes procs SoH 7 times in one combo. If you subtract 22*7 from both results you have the numbers they would do unbuffed.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

so tell me how long it takes to proc 7 SoH's for a warrior without adjacent targets, and how much damage that's doing, then tell me that the warrior is equal / superior without 4 targets

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

so tell me how long it takes to proc 7 SoH's for a warrior without adjacent targets, and how much damage that's doing, then tell me that the warrior is equal / superior without 4 targets

You said it took 6 mobs before a 100b Warrior is equal without SoH, which was pure bullshit. I never said a 100b Warr is superior at sub-4 targets, especially not single-target. It isn't the builds design so the point is kinda moot. I just wanted to point out you were lying and tried to use my math to fool people into believing you.

Also it is hilarious that you go from "100b is inferior, period" to "100b is inferior at 4-5 targets" to "100b is inferior versus a single target".

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

You said it took 6 mobs before a 100b Warrior is equal without SoH, which was pure bullshit. I never said a 100b Warr is superior at sub-4 targets, especially not single-target. It isn't the builds design so the point is kinda moot. I just wanted to point out you were lying and tried to use my math to fool people into believing you.

That's funny, you've been claiming that warriors are superior damage dealers this whole time yet now you're singing a different song. I'm sure thats what you were trying to do.

BTW in one of your earlier posts you calculated yourself that at 6 targets WWA+HB+Autohit adds up to 764 damage if being very generous (and no it's not 1000+ damage) while a complete DB cycle would take less than half the time and cause around 600 damage. By your own previous argument, it doesn't matter how long it takes to re-cycle DB since the party will finish off the rest of the ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

Also it is hilarious that you go from "100b is inferior, period" to "100b is inferior at 4-5 targets" to "100b is inferior versus a single target".

aren't you the one that changed your argument?... I've always said that 100b is inferior at 4 or less and that the average slash of a sword is going to hit less than 4 adjacent targets...

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

That's funny, you've been claiming that warriors are superior damage dealers this whole time yet they now you're singing a different song. I'm sure thats what you were trying to do.

BTW in one of your earlier posts you calculated yourself that WWA->>Autohit adds up to 764 damage if being very generous (and no it's not 1000+ damage) while a complete DB cycle would take less than half the time and cause around 600 damage. By previous argument, it doesn't matter how long it takes to re-cycle DB since the party will finish off the rest of the ball.

aren't you the one that changed your argument?... I've always said that 100b is inferior at 4 or less and that the average slash of a sword is going to hit much less than 4 adjacent targets...

If we factor in teammates we can just throw in MoP and 100b is superior again.

And no, I never stated 100b is better in every situation. However if you doesn't have at least 3-4+ mobs around you in any non-bossfight you are doing it wrong. I give you the fact that Assassins does more damage if played by bad players compared to a Warrior that is played by a bad player. However I've found Warriors scale a lot better with mob-size and thus player skill.

Quote:

As you kindly showed us in your equation, if it's 3 or 4 100b does pathetic damage compared to death blossom.

Your quote. I showed you that Warriors are equal/superior at four targets.

Gill Halendt · Aug 29, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

*post*

Don't argue with idiots: they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Give up before he insults you and your mental faculties.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Don't argue with idiots: they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Give up before he insults you and your mental faculties.

I don't mind, I am an idiot in many ways so it is ok. Not to mention that I love being right so it is hard to pass up an opportunity to tell someone they are wrong. One of my less charming character traits.