Curse

Lariv · Aug 08, 2011, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I'm trying to determine which melee profession is right for me. Warrior has awesome looks, but seems weak compared to Dervish. Dervish has skirts, but is able to epic scythe SY! and has avatars. Which would be better for general PvE? Elite end-game? Running? Versatility? Can any melee profession moderately use a bow, or would I be better off being a Ranger? My previous criteria fits, too.

thetwistedboy · Aug 08, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

The Warrior and Dervish are on about the same level as far as dealing damage. Avatars are a bit overrated at the moment in my opinion, but Dervishes still have strong offensive options. I think Warriors beat Dervishes on the damage and offensive side of things. Warriors have Dragon Slash, Earth Shaker, and Warrior's Endurance let warriors put out a lot of damage and full/are strong defensive or offensive options. Dervishes get Pious Renewal (the builds take some getting used to), Avatars, and Wounding Strike. Wounding Strike is very powerful because of the deep wound and now bonus damage, avatars are good for obvious reasons, and Pious Renewal lets you spam endless attacks without fear of running out of energy. Hundred Blades and Vow of Strength are basically the same skill.

Dervishes and Warriors are both capable of running, but I'd say that the Dervish will beat the warrior there.

Dervishes and Warriors both aren't insanely versatile, they are both made to be damage machines. Warriors have inherent armor bonuses that make them more durable than Dervishes, but Dervishes can use their skills and maybe and avatar to fuel builds that will provide massive party healing as well as single target spike healing.

Bows are a no on any melee profession except the assassin (even then it's questionable) and should really only be used for pulling and such.

Dervishes kinda beat warriors for endgame content as far as grouping with people go.

For general and even endgame PvE go, just pick the one that you enjoy playing more. Warriors are more tanky, Dervishes can do some stuff other than straight damage.

I play a Warrior and I love it, didn't like the Dervish a whole lot. It's all just personal preference in the end.

gremlin · Aug 09, 2011, 12:16 AM // 00:16

You have a secondary profession and within certain limits you can use a Bow cast spells anything at all.
The limits are the number of skill points you can put into the skill track and available energy.
Some combinations do not work very well others are great.

Each class has a primary skill line, ie a Warrior prime line is strength Warrior can put points into strength but another class cannot even if they are warrior secondary.
You can go warrior dervish and use a scythe but will be unable to put skill points into mysticism so dervish skills using that line will be all but useless in most cases.

I like the dervish not the look so much but they are pretty good in pve and have had a skill boost that made them better still.
I like the Paragon a little better heavy armour shield and throwing spear works for me.

All classes should take a bow not for damage but to use its long range to pull single enemies its just easier to kill enemies piecemeal.

dps isn't that important to me its how efficient the party is at winning battles.

instanceskiller · Aug 09, 2011, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Well, since you talk about "any" melee, I assume you just forgot about sins. Unlike casters, and ranged professions, I think melee professions have the shortest gap in power from one to the other. That said, each still has their own pros and cons compared to the other. In terms of looks, which is subjective, I cannot help you. However, my personal opinion is that the sin has the most awesome looks/armors. Also, you didn't mention what kind of playstyle you like most.

If you prefer raw tanking, then it would be a tie between warrior and dervs. Warrior has by default, the highest base armor of all melee. However, a dervs mysticism can allow it to reach a raw tanking level close to that of the warrior, and more so when using avatar of balthazar. However, if you consider a professions skill, then a sin can also become a good tank, though not necessarily due to having high armor, but because of their ability to block/negate/mitigate damage from skills like critical defenses and shroud of distress. In fact, in high end, I believe they are the best tanks due to shadow form. Warriors also have access to a plethora of tanking skills like defy pain and shield stance etc. Likewise, dervs have an array of tanking skills, like mystic regeneration and aura of thorns. In all, all melee professions have a similar ability to tank.

In terms of damage output or dps, sins are probably the front runners. This is because though they have the lowest base damage weapon of all melee professions, they have fast activating/recharging attack chains that deal decent bonus damage. In spite of this, warrs and dervs can also deal decent damage each. Both have high base damage weps, so their auto attacks are stronger than sins, and will have ways to bolster their offenses too. In all though, while all will deal good damage, I think sins will potentially have the highest dps out of them all. Furthermore, I think they are the only melee profession that can use a bow moderately enough to consider devoting a whole bar to the weapon, other than just for pulling purposes.

Now because I am tired, I will wrap things up quickly. I think sins and dervs will be the better runners due them having the ability to negate and mitigate damage. Sins can also shadow step and dervs have easy access to condition removal. Both classes have other utility skills that make running easier. In low level areas, warrs can also run though.

Versatility? Hard to say. They are all versatile in their own ways, e.g wars have access to various weps. Sins can also use other weps due to their primary ability affecting them all. Dervs have avatars that can allow them to be great offense and defense support, as well as other reasons.

Concluding this, for general pve, any class will do. For high end, I think all have applications though I believe sins are more needed generally.

Premium Unleaded · Aug 09, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

If you're good with weapon swapping, then you could pull off WE daggers + yeti smash for both fast aoe damage & kd.

Lariv · Aug 09, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

What I'm trying to determine, is which would be able to keep up SY! permanently. Or could I do a Ranger and spam it with Infuriating Heat? Are Rangers even remotely useful?

Thenameless Wonder · Aug 09, 2011, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Assassins are a heckofalot good at spamming SY. With a way of the assassin build you can spam SY every 2-3 seconds. With a warrior it's a bit slower than that because Warriors aren't the fastest at gaining adrenaline. I don't see dervishes spamming SY that much, if you want a melee class that can protect just go imbagon.

Rangers are useful in a different area. In missions they aren't particularly useful, lots of rangers want to join but one of the reasons rangers exist (to give interupts), mesmers do a lot better job at interupting since their buff. Almost always now a Mesmer dominates at interrupting with panic and shutdown with ineptitude. Other than a splinter barrager ranger or a trapper for zaishen elite, there are a lot more efficient ways to go than a ranger.

I do have a ranger and he is great but I don't use him too much. But on the occasion I put him as a pet master and it's fun once and awhile but the current "meta" is:

Ineptitude Mesmer
Panic Mesmer
UA/HB monks
DwG rits
SoS rits
ST rit
SF tanks
SF ele
Imbagon para
Discord
WotA sin

Practically the non-used classes are warriors (except when you need a tank), necromancers (especially as mm's because everyone goes spirits now) and dervishes for damage

Rhershy8 · Aug 09, 2011, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lariv

What I'm trying to determine, is which would be able to keep up SY! permanently. Or could I do a Ranger and spam it with Infuriating Heat? Are Rangers even remotely useful?

SY can be kept up nearly indefnitely along with great dps with a Dslash warrior. Dragon Slash+FGJ= Dslash on every single swing of your sword as well as SY after every hit. Granted, once FGJ runs out it will be slower. Just make sure you use an IAS skill or it won't be nearly as effective. Better yet, I just buy red rocks instead.

Red rocks free up a skill slot you would have used for an IAS, offer the fastest possible IAS (33%), and make running between targets much faster.

Overall I prefer warrior for my melee class because I absolutely love Dslash and their natural armor bonus. Put a couple skills like endure pain and IAU! on ur bar so you can tank as well.

Edit: forgot to mention that enraging charge is great for starting the battle

Kunder · Aug 09, 2011, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Dervish > Anything for just about any PvE melee usage you can come up with. However, the difference is being able to finish any PvE area blindfolded one handed while drunk in 25 mins vs being able to finish any PvE area blindfolded one handed while drunk in 24 mins. In other words, they all perform fine, the performance disparity is well within the average variation from blind spawn luck.

Everything thats /w in the game can keep SY up once you use FGJ. Don't worry about that. Every melee profession also gets to take advantage of SoH/SW/GDW/MoP, which means their damage output is pretty much +-10% at most because 90% of all (non-sin) melee damage is from buffing. They all have pretty decent AoE, and the armor differences means jack shit in HM because even unprotted warriors die in 1s while a 60 AL profession can live forever with a prot. So yeah, don't really worry about being underpowered with anything in melee, you are universally very powerful.

No melee professions really use bows well. Mostly because bows are underpowered such that even rangers are better off not using them most of the time, as rangers are a perfectly viable melee profession going R/A w/ Enraged Lunge pet. They don't get SY from that, but in most battles you will probably find that SY isn't all that important anyway. R/W with bow of course can keep up SY better than any melee, but damage is somewhat weaker.

If you want versatility, Dervs are the best followed closely by Warriors. Sins/Rangers pretty much run 1 or 2 builds and stick with it.

Frozen_Chips · Aug 09, 2011, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Regarding bows, I struggled for a long time to make a bow warrior with fairly mediocre results. The biggest problem is that you’ll never do as much damage as a primary ranger or a melee warrior, and your high armour isn’t being put to good use at a distance. That said, if you really wanted to give it a shot there is some potential with a flourish-oriented build… but sadly, not all that much.

For a very similar aesthetic, you can make some incredibly effective spear warriors. It’s a good trade-off between playing an armoured ranged class, and still having a viable build.

Siver · Aug 09, 2011, 05:19 AM // 05:19

i think alot of people are dancing around the fact that A paragon ( or IMBA, short for Imbalanced) is and probably will always be the best at keeping SY up. Not to mention TiNTF. It may be painfully META.. no reason not say it out loud.

hankey · Aug 09, 2011, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

If you're good with weapon swapping, then you could pull off WE daggers + yeti smash for both fast aoe damage & kd.

this one here is very useful imo. you can also go simply with WE dagger spam along with drunken master for extra ias but it can get boring, maintaing SY! with ease

Magikarp · Aug 09, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

My main is Warrior, and I'll admit, I'm one of those people that like Wars over Dervs every time. That being said, Dervs have been buffed to be seriously on par with Warriors in almost every way, and where Warriors still deal more damage and have a little more team utility, Dervs def have more singular utility and scythes obviously hit more than 1 target, so it's a little trade off.

THAT being said, I play a lot of Sin too, and Assassins are still no joke. High damage packets, can run most of the team utility out there, and absurd energy management.

Just food for thought.

Infectious · Aug 09, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

The Warrior and Dervish are on about the same level as far as dealing damage. Avatars are a bit overrated at the moment in my opinion, but Dervishes still have strong offensive options. I think Warriors beat Dervishes on the damage and offensive side of things. Warriors have Dragon Slash, Earth Shaker, and Warrior's Endurance let warriors put out a lot of damage and full/are strong defensive or offensive options. Dervishes get Pious Renewal (the builds take some getting used to), Avatars, and Wounding Strike. Wounding Strike is very powerful because of the deep wound and now bonus damage, avatars are good for obvious reasons, and Pious Renewal lets you spam endless attacks without fear of running out of energy. Hundred Blades and Vow of Strength are basically the same skill.

Dervishes and Warriors are both capable of running, but I'd say that the Dervish will beat the warrior there.

Dervishes and Warriors both aren't insanely versatile, they are both made to be damage machines. Warriors have inherent armor bonuses that make them more durable than Dervishes, but Dervishes can use their skills and maybe and avatar to fuel builds that will provide massive party healing as well as single target spike healing.

Bows are a no on any melee profession except the assassin (even then it's questionable) and should really only be used for pulling and such.

Dervishes kinda beat warriors for endgame content as far as grouping with people go.

For general and even endgame PvE go, just pick the one that you enjoy playing more. Warriors are more tanky, Dervishes can do some stuff other than straight damage.

I play a Warrior and I love it, didn't like the Dervish a whole lot. It's all just personal preference in the end.

Most of this is very wrong.
Warriors only saving grace is KD's in PvP.
Otherwise dervs kerb stomp them into the ground.

Dagoth Umbra · Aug 09, 2011, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Go Assassin. Assassin does most damage, can be a caster if necessary, and can even use bows as a critical barrager.

Kunder · Aug 10, 2011, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoth Umbra

Go Assassin. Assassin does most damage, can be a caster if necessary, and can even use bows as a critical barrager.

Sins can't be casters (AP + shouts is not a caster), and critical barrage is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E.

Damage is highly situational. Against a single strong foe its about neck and neck tied between Derv and Warrior with Warrior probably getting a slight lead. Against a few strong foes in front, I'll score a tie between Sin (DB) and Derv (both having more effective AoE damaging). Against 4 or more foes in front, I'll give an edge to sins since Scythes can't hit more than 3 enemies. When surrounded or when against 7+ foes, Warriors and Dervs both pull ahead again (Hundred Blades or Vow of Strength builds rule supreme). Against low health enemies, sins generally do worse because their chain gets broken constantly, whereas they are more effective against high health + armor enemies since they can get 2 or more full armor ignoring chains in. OTOH, not having true multi hit attacks means that they get quite a bit less benefit from nice things like Splinter Weapon.

As I said, in a ranking of damage its pretty much a tossup unless you want to argue over pure number crunching that can put one melee ahead by a few % points in estimated DPS in a specific situation. Generally if you have a melee build and are standing next to something it dies in 4s or less, whether its actually 3.3s vs 3.7s is rather unimportant.

thetwistedboy · Aug 10, 2011, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Most of this is very wrong.
Warriors only saving grace is KD's in PvP.
Otherwise dervs kerb stomp them into the ground.

That was two things and more importantly this thread is for PvE. In PvE, Warriors and Dervishes really can't be compared with statistics and numbers because they both function differently, have different very elite skills and weapons, and a Warrior's team build could be very different from a Dervish's as well as playstyle.

Oh and I've killed plenty of Dervishes in PvP one on one with good old Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker. And I'm really not very good at PvP. Dervishes do not "curb stomp Warriors into the ground", but they are far enough ahead of Warriors at the moment to be the preferred class in PvP.

spandexninja · Aug 28, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

That was two things and more importantly this thread is for PvE. In PvE, Warriors and Dervishes really can't be compared with statistics and numbers because they both function differently, have different very elite skills and weapons, and a Warrior's team build could be very different from a Dervish's as well as playstyle.

Oh and I've killed plenty of Dervishes in PvP one on one with good old Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker. And I'm really not very good at PvP. Dervishes do not "curb stomp Warriors into the ground", but they are far enough ahead of Warriors at the moment to be the preferred class in PvP.

He meant they 'kerb stomp' them in PVE (hence the otherwise), with which I have to agree. One is melee dps that does obscene amounts of armor ignoring AOE damage, while one is melee dps that doesn't do much dps at all. If you're just playing to finish the campaigns in normal mode, then it doesn't really matter what you pick, but if you're looking to do hard mode and Hall of Monuments, Dervish is the obvious choice (out of the given options).

However, out of all the melee classes, Assassin does by far the most dps. If you're looking to be a tank, assassins also do that job better than a warrior can. As a warrior or a dervish, you'll be hard pressed to find a group in end game dungeons and speed clears (such as DoASC and UWSC), while there is no shortage of assassin roles in end game PVE.

The Assassin is by far the most versatile elite end-game melee class and is the only melee class that can use a bow-oriented build with reasonable effectiveness.

Kunder · Aug 28, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

However, out of all the melee classes, Assassin does by far the most dps. If you're looking to be a tank, assassins also do that job better than a warrior can. As a warrior or a dervish, you'll be hard pressed to find a group in end game dungeons and speed clears (such as DoASC and UWSC), while there is no shortage of assassin roles in end game PVE.

lolno. Lack of Hundred Blades/Vow of Strength means no instagibbing of groups. As the # of enemies increases Assassin DPS output grows at a linear rate while HB/VoS builds grow at N^2. There is no instance at which Assassins do "by far the most DPS".

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

The Assassin is by far the most versatile elite end-game melee class and is the only melee class that can use a bow-oriented build with reasonable effectiveness.

Least versatile melee class, seeing as how the ONLY build you will ever use unless you want to gimp yourself is Death Blossom spamming. Assassins with bows still suck, the fact that they suck .05% less than warriors or dervishes with bows is irrelevant.

LifeInfusion · Aug 28, 2011, 03:23 PM // 15:23

From 2011 Derv update on: Derv all the way... there's a reason why warriors got displaced in PvP when Dervishes got buffed.

*Better synergy with your monk: Dwayna's Kiss from a monk = >100 +DF even without Unyielding aura or Healer's Boon
*Less movement issues: IAS doesn't reduce movement speed, decrease damage, or make you take 2x damage
*Fuels "Save Yourselves!" in 3 swipes of a scythe on 3 mobs
*Scythe has more base damage than Axe / daggers ; is faster than hammers (you generally wouldn't run Backbreaker in PVE ; Earthshaker is not matched by Reaper's Sweep but takes longer to build up to)
*female Dervishes look cooler when they attack than female warriors/assassins IMO (they spin rather than stab) , and it's an excuse to use my Nightfall collector's edition dance and Icy Soulbreaker of Enchanting
* Flash enchantments are basically crazy when used with Pious Assault,Irresistible Sweep, or Eremite's Attack
* Avatar of Dwayna is broken in PVE (Meditation makes it even more so)
* Avatar of Grenth was broken in PVP , still is strong
* Heart of Fury/Pious Fury>flail
* Radiant Scythe is good energy management
* Victorious Sweep means you are less reliant on heals (if you get a killing blow of course)
* Mystic Sweep is a fast attack with an easy condition
* Vow of Silence is broken in areas with only casters
* Armor of Sanctity/Attacker's Insight is broken in areas with melee
* Zealous renewal is also broken (and can be abused with stuff like Irresistible Sweep)
* Ebon Dust Aura , Grenth's Aura, Avatars make them less dependent on armor levels
* Vow of strength builds can compete with 100Blades
* Dervish takes less skill to play well... knockdowns/bull's strike/deep wound/interrupts/stance cancelling is harder to get right than flash enchantments , avatars, & attacks
--> Skillful bull's strike is still an indication of a good player , as is quarterknocking (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Quarterknock)
--> I do miss slightly higher +damage (Body Blow/Mighty Blow/Executioner's Strike/Dragon Slash/Standing Slash), but with EDA or Grenth's avatar there's no way the Warrior outdoes dervish in easy-to-play damage.
* Assassin armor is f-ugly for the most part with the blades and all... (IMHO)