Curse

Turbobusa · Dec 19, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

What I meant is that a sup vigor has less impact when used with aura of the lich.
Therefore you can afford not to have another set of armor (My inventory is generally full of stuff).
But I could use of fast cast boots with whatever rune on it and some other boots with survivor/vigor

Washi, I do not claim to be ho so experienced, I just say that I have some experience.Plus this was "discovered" like 2 weeks ago so it has nothing to do with experience.

Anyway I gave a try at golem bombing, but seeing how hard it is to target him and how dumb he is, that's hardly worth it.

Estic · Dec 19, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

What I meant is that a sup vigor has less impact when used with aura of the lich.

I know that, but it still is not a benefit. Unless for exceptions you are not going to get killed in one hit. Now with a sup vigor you sacrifice more health and you regen slower. I view that as a drawback.

I just don't see why you would splash out on a sup vigor (or any other vigor rune) for an MM build. If you only have enough money for 1 armor, and want to run curses or something else as well, put the (sup) vigor on your cheapest armor piece, say you arms. Then buy another set of arms and do not apply a vigor rune to it. Switch as needed, problem solved.

Edit: Ah, I see you edited your message. Well, then we are in agreement I guess

. Putting the vigor on the boots and having a bloodstained pair at the ready seems like a good idea then.

Washi · Dec 19, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Washi, I do not claim to be ho so experienced, I just say that I have some experience.Plus this was "discovered" like 2 weeks ago so it has nothing to do with experience.

"It was discoverd" doesnt equal "it was posted on guru".

Anyway this discussion is kinda pointless, Golem is a waste of elite slot, period.

DRGN · Dec 19, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Flesh Golem works for heroes. I don't trust them with OoU. Did it a few times and this is how it went

Olias: OH RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO FOUR FEROTHRAXES TRAINING ON ME

[skill]Order of Undeath[/skill]

/die

Chthon · Dec 19, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Sigh... I marvel at Online Gamer's ability to rehash every single settled topic on these boards...

Flesh Golem:
Flesh Golem is not a bad skill. You could even call it a good skill. Depending on your fiend/horror ratio, it's going to boost your total DPS by 10-20%, and it tanks quite well. However, it's just not as good as other options. Order of Undeath gives a lot more DPS. AotL enables better unfocused tanking by propping up multiple horrors with BotM spam. If you really needed focused tanking, your group would have a warrior, so the FG is not needed for that task. Rarely are you going to come across a situation where FG does what you need done better than one of these two other spells.

Jagged Bones:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I don't see why you think [wiki]Jagged Bones[/wiki] is so great. It only works on the "target" creature, which has to die to make it work. So, you have a weaker (than FG) minion that dies sooner, to make another weaker than FG minion.

Your instinct is correct: Jagged Bones is terrible elite for Minion Masters. The minions it produces are weaker than not only FG, but also regular horrors. However, Jagged Bones is positively amazing for Minion Bombers. It gives you a new minion for 5e, without requiring a corpse. And you don't care about that minion being a weak piece of garbage (which it is), because you're just going to blow it up anyway.

Hero AI:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

But at any rate, I find that Livia doesn't use BotM all that much, she tends to make new minions instead.

Your observation is correct. The hero AI has some serious IQ deficit problems with a number of important MM functions, including using BotM properly. Simply put, the heroes are just too dumb to do a Minion Master correctly. (A corollary here is that anyone who believes the heroes make better MM's than players has no idea how to play MM, and has probably never even seen a good MM.)
On the other hand, the hero AI is particularly good at doing some Minion Bomber functions that humans can't do very well at all because of the lack of a minion interface -- specifically "knowing" which minions have which enchantments and instantly targeting the right minions for Death Nova, Jagged Bones, and Taste/Putrid.
So, if you want to get the best mileage out of the heroes, always use Minion Bomber builds on heroes, and never Minion Master builds. Even though MB builds are inherently less powerful than MM builds (if you were to compare perfect usage of each), the hero AI is so much better at handling a MB build that you will get better performance.

Ancestor's Rage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Actually, the Flesh Golem thing isn't an 'exception' - it's just how damage from spells works in Guild Wars.

I suppose it's not an exception, because splinter does the same thing, but it's most definitely a bug. All spells should always use the caster's level to calculate their Baseline, and not someone else's. That's just common sense. This one doesn't. Oh well. Go abuse it while you can I guess.

The AB MM Build:

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I went onto pvxwiki and found a great MM build which uses alot of enchantments to protect against harm and it doesnt use flesh golem.

Check out http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._to_the_Master

It works pretty well aslong as you maintain enchantments.

1. That build would work better with Maso in place of SoLS. One more enchantment to fuel mystic regen, and it doesn't rely on having a foe with < half health nearby for your e-management.

2. Since that damn thing keeps popping up in PvE, let's try one more time to make clear: This build is good in AB ONLY; It's positively bad in PvE. Half the bar is dedicated to protecting yourself from human AB opponents who are (at least sometimes) smart enough to make you a super-high-priority target. In AB, that's necessary. Against the (usually) much dumber PvE monsters, it's an extremely foolish waste of skillslots.

Online Gamer · Dec 19, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Wow nice posts there chthon it had some good points

blue.rellik · Dec 22, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Easy MMing. get your minions up, spam Botm as needed.
The main attract of AotL is the quarter sac to allow you to keep your minions alive.
Whether you lose 37or 25 hp a sac instead of 100, I think you're happy enough.
I understand and agree why you wouldn't want any vigor on a normal MM, there is just less impact of bringing one on a AotL MM. Of course if you can afford the perfect equipement you should go for that, though I wouldn't lower my HP below 200.

How does more health make it easier to MM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

Health stealing is not reduced by AotL, Arragodons where handing me my /ss yesterday, because 1 or 2 of their hits > than my total health.

By the time I figured I should not use AotL I was already at 40% DP.
It was however the large groups of raptors and not having an SS with us that made us fail the vanquish IM(I)O

But it's not like I have money or room to get another armor set with vigor instead of attuned.

Well it's your fault if you're stupid enough to run AotL in areas with heavy and powerful life stealing

MsMassacre · Dec 22, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Problem with fleshy is that by the time he actually hits anybody, the fight's already over. Whenever I bring him, here's what happens;

Plod plod plod... stand next to enemy for 5 seconds... start to swing... enemy dies from other damage before fleshy actually connects... stand still for 5 more seconds... plod over to next enemy... etc.

Sure, if he actually HITS, he (sometimes) does decent damage, but he averages 1 hit per fight.

I run aura of undeath on my necro and jagged bones on my heroes.

Coloneh · Dec 22, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Online Gamer

Wow nice posts there chthon it had some good points

not really. he failed to mention that MM bombers capable of maintaining an army outside of battle (jagged bones) are superior than a MM that trys to cling to decaying fiends instead of using fresh corpses.

Turbobusa · Dec 22, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

How does more health make it easier to MM?

So I'm going to post it again, and again, so that I'm sure everyone will understand.
It does not help.
You should avoid it.

BUT:
If you happen to have no space for another set of armor, AoTL disminishes the impact of your vigor rune A LOT. THIS makes MMing easy. You spam BotM on recharge without worrying about your health or your monk. If you see your counter drop by one you animate something. Not very hard imo.

Again, if you can afford another set, avoid this, do not take more health.
Am I going to have to repost it in an even clearer way?

Online Gamer · Dec 22, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

No it makes sense

LightningHell · Dec 22, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Flesh Golem is not a bad skill. You could even call it a good skill. Depending on your fiend/horror ratio, it's going to boost your total DPS by 10-20%, and it tanks quite well. However, it's just not as good as other options.

Doesn't that define how bad a skill/build/whatnot is?

Turtle222 · Dec 22, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

A reasonable buff would be...have the golem deepwound/bleed/blind/weaken or any one condition on hit

Dante the Warlord · Dec 22, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Well ive been reading up on this thread and changed my elite to Aura of the Lich. It seems to be an easy skill to get the hang of, but im just afraid of the degen. i do use healing circle though so hopefully itll be alright. I felt that Aura of the Lich was better than Odrer of the Undeath, although AoTL is much harder to obtain. I also added masocism for the energy gain. Hope fully ill be a much better MM. Would any of you guys suggest getting rid of my superior vigor? Maybe ill buy another armor set and start a SS necro :-).

Chthon · Dec 22, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

not really. he failed to mention that MM bombers capable of maintaining an army outside of battle (jagged bones) are superior than a MM that trys to cling to decaying fiends instead of using fresh corpses.

1. A decent MM does take advantage of fresh corpses. Why are you saying they don't?

2. BotM + a good self heal allows a MM to maintain a full army of 10 indefinitely. JB does not allow a MB to do so -- without faster recharge, JB alone can only maintain 2 minions indefinitely.

3. If you're in an area where you have to be "clinging to decaying minions," that's a good indication that corpses are too scarce for any minion build to work well.

4. Did I not say:

Quote:

Jagged Bones is positively amazing for Minion Bombers.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Doesn't that define how bad a skill/build/whatnot is?

IMO, a "bad" skill is one that:
(1) Is counterproductive to your goal, or
(2) Is not much more beneficial than auto-attacking, or
(3) Is less beneficial than a majority of other options, or
(4) Is one or more orders of magnitude worse than the best options.
Ergo, Flesh Golem is not, by my definition, a "bad" skill. To take my criteria somewhat out of order: It has significant benefits over nothing at all, and no drawbacks except for the elite skillslot it consumes. While there's rarely a case where either OoU or AotL isn't better, there's also rarely a case where one of those skills is just lightyears better. Finally, it's a hell of a lot better than most other elite options -- life x-fer, ravenous gaze, plague signet, discord, etc really suck by comparison. In fact, I'd probably put FG in a solid third place for MM elite choices.

Online Gamer · Dec 22, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

A reasonable buff would be...have the golem deepwound/bleed/blind/weaken or any one condition on hit

That is a good Idea

Carinae · Dec 22, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

A reasonable buff would be...have the golem deepwound/bleed/blind/weaken or any one condition on hit

Deep Wound or Disease would work nicely.

Ensign · Dec 22, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

IIRC, though, damage from Weapons is not affected by level - a level 17 Warrior with 14 Swordsmanship will deal as much damage as a level 20 Warrior with 14 Swords; as weapon damage is calculated independently of level (albeit with a lower crit rate... ugh, so many things to remember

)

It does vary somewhat; your character's level affects the point at which an additional level of weapon mastery stops giving you +5 per level and starts giving you +2 per level. At level 20 with 14 mastery you'll hit evenly against 64 AL (virtual level 21.333-); at level 17, you'll hit evenly against 58 AL (virtual level 59.333-).

Sir Pandra Pierva · Dec 25, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

[skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Heal Area[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill]

Pretty much a basic MM build. I use deathly swarm for lack of any other good filler skills, Though I should splash into blood for [skill]Dark Bond[/skill]

Splitisoda · Dec 27, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Personally, I like Aura Of The Lich because of the stacking healing.

^By this i mean that if you use it, then wait for its recharge and use it again, when the original one SHOULD have ran out youget healed for it, and you get healed for the next one too. Im not sure if anet fixed this yet or not.