Curse

Carinae · Jan 07, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

In the effort to stir up controversy, I want to discuss something that is usually taboo here. Namely, the idea of using Shadow of Fear and Reckless Haste together.

The traditional view is that SoF works in opposition to both RH and SS, by slowing the monsters attack rate. So SoF has been out of favor for a while now. But I want to discuss a reason to use them together: damage reduction.

Shadow of Fear does synergize well with Reckless Haste, from the viewpoint of debuffing an enemy mob. Both are AoE, both reduce the damage the mob does, and they do it in different ways that stack together. In addition, SoF is a very long lasting hex, which reduces casting to reapply, and fulfills the requirements for other spells, ie: Necrosis.

RH + SoF reduces the damage output from physical attacks by 68.75%, and both can be applied to an entire mob in one shot. Throw in Enfeebling Blood, and the mobs damage output falls to ~20%.

From the point-of-view of a debuffing hexer, SoF+RH+EB is an outstanding combination vs physicals.

Discuss.

Terraban · Jan 07, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

To me, the added damage reduction from SoF is worth the slight decrease in effectiveness of SS.

EB+SoF pretty much owns mobs of melee.

Moloch Vein · Jan 07, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

In hard mode, using Reckless Haste plus Shadow of Fear will lead to a attack speed reduction putting the resulting attack speed about on par with normal mode. Math isn't my strong suit, but it should be approximately that. It's not a bad option.

Of course, you don't normally need this level of neutering of physical mobs, because if there is anything a Curses necromancer can do, it's killing physical mobs.

boogerboy72 · Jan 07, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

In hard mode, using Reckless Haste plus Shadow of Fear will lead to a attack speed reduction putting the resulting attack speed about on par with normal mode. Math isn't my strong suit, but it should be approximately that. It's not a bad option.

Of course, you don't normally need this level of neutering of physical mobs, because if there is anything a Curses necromancer can do, it's killing anything.

i fixed it for you

Stormlord Alex · Jan 07, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

There's nothing wrong with that at all. What you on about, Carinae?

I'd be more than happy with someone running RH + SoF on a curse guy - important bit now, dear reader! - you just need to be able to judge when the damage reduction offered by stacking the two skills outweighs the damage you're losing from SS, and vice versa - when it's just better to let the enemy slaughter themselves faster.

For general PvE, this basically means: 'untill "Save Yourselves!" is charged/the stupid OP webs of passive defense are up, and you become immortal and no longer need extra shutdown from SoF'.

I suppose I could go on to discuss what you could be running instead of SoF that would be infinitely more valuable when the defense webs are up, but between Barbs, SS, and EB, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the curse guys' bar looks like. And that would be a tangent derailing the thread

blue.rellik · Jan 07, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

What Alex said, especially against something like HM Destroyers which can simply shred even a warrior to pieces unless they're packing SY, the potential damage prevented is worth the slower killing speed.

Cherng Butter · Jan 07, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

If you don't mind giving up that extra damage from SS, then by all means! I've actually never thought of those 2 skills as stacking, but when you put it that way, it sounds mighty appealing.

The Meth · Jan 07, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

I would say that enfeebling blood + any kind of prots alone should be enough damage reduction for almost all the game. Reckless haste is already giving you 50% block which outweighs the IAS by far. Of course being cautious isn't a bad thing if you aren't sure you can handle the damage intake, its just that if I had the choice I would be bringing a defense type that doesn't reduce the damage you deal.

Evil Genius · Jan 07, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

What Alex said, especially against something like HM Destroyers which can simply shred even a warrior to pieces unless they're packing SY, the potential damage prevented is worth the slower killing speed.

HM destroyers cant shred anything. I have done the HM missions and dungeons against destroyers with H/H and therefore no SY.

To OP, yes I agree both can be used, it just depends on the situation.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

I only use the op's combo in HM. Pointless in regular (isn't everything?) :P

Chthon · Jan 07, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Does RH + SoF (+ Enfeebling Blood) work? Sure. But,...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Of course, you don't normally need this level of neutering of physical mobs

So you often end up trading out a bunch of your SS (and/or SV) damage in exchange for some extra shutdown with low marginal utility.

I'd say that there's two cases where I'd consider adding SoF to a curser already running RH + EB:

1. If you absolutely, positively need that extra bit of debuff to buy time to get Save Yourselves, wards, blind, whatever in place.

2. If you've got so many foes in play that RH+SS can go on one group of foes, and SoF can go on another with no overlap. (For example, Vizunah Sq. Hard Mode.)

Otherwise, I'd leave SoF at home.

blue.rellik · Jan 07, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Genius

HM destroyers cant shred anything. I have done the HM missions and dungeons against destroyers with H/H and therefore no SY.

To OP, yes I agree both can be used, it just depends on the situation.

I'm sorry just because you can hide behind aegis and wards the whole times doesn't mean other people can.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

SS and SV damage isn't exchanged (on hardmode).

50% inherent - 50% shadow + 50% reckless = 50% again

You just cutting thier damage in half by adding the 50% chance to miss.

Carinae · Jan 07, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

To me, the added damage reduction from SoF is worth the slight decrease in effectiveness of SS.

Well, adding SoF will reduce mob damage by 50%, but it will affect SS by 50% as well. But yea, that's the trade-off, and in some cases can be well worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'd say that there's two cases where I'd consider adding SoF to a curser already running RH + EB:

1. If you absolutely, positively need that extra bit of debuff to buy time to get Save Yourselves, wards, blind, whatever in place.

2. If you've got so many foes in play that RH+SS can go on one group of foes, and SoF can go on another with no overlap. (For example, Vizunah Sq. Hard Mode.)

Agreed on both points. My main purpose was to show that this often scoffed at combo actually does work for certain tactics. It will cost you damage output but can completely shutdown melee for a bit, or provide dual debuff combos versus larger mobs.

If you need to run these 3 (SoF+RH+EB) together, you should probaby throw in Well of Darkness as well. All-together reducing a physical mob to 10% damage output, or giving you the option of throwing RH+EB (+SS) on one mob and SoF+WoD on another. Both options give you lots of targets for Necrosis.

Is it necessary in PvE often? ... Well, it's a good play to keep in the playbook, even if it doesn't see much action.

Carinae · Jan 07, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

SS and SV damage isn't exchanged (on hardmode).

50% inherent - 50% shadow + 50% reckless = 50% again

You just cutting thier damage in half by adding the 50% chance to miss.

RH is +25% IAS. So with both RH+SoF, they have a 62.5% attack rate plus 50% to miss.

I'm not sure if there is an IAS cap in regards to Hard Mode and hexes. Ensign would probably know....

System_Crush · Jan 07, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I would disagree with [skill=text]Shadow of Fear[/skill] it only affects adjacent foes, which first of all is a hard condition to meet with melee foes that tend to run about the place too charge the party member with the most DP. If your oing to hit only 1 foe anyway(as with [skill=text]Reckless Haste[/skill] happens often anyway, but is effective that way anyway as you can only SS 1 target at a time) it would be a greater advantage to use [skill=text]Faintheartedness[/skill]
For 5 extra energy and a little health you have [skill=text]meekness[/skill] 2 sises larger area, making it hard to miss mobs with it.
It has a greater potential in reducing the damage physical mobs deal.
However if you want to really reduce the damage, the best way to do it is by making sure no attacks hit, instead of making them hit slower.
Block and miss chances are the best you can do in that area.

I only wish that like mesmers, cursers could reduce skill speed, [wiki]Sum of All Fears[/wiki] that is where the real damage comes from, that is what would be most effective in reducing.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

RH is +25% IAS.

I fear my Christmas/New Years break may have been too long! :/

Xylia · Jan 07, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'm not sure if there is an IAS cap in regards to Hard Mode and hexes. Ensign would probably know....

According to [wiki]attack speed[/wiki], -50% or +33% is the cap for attack speed effects. I am unsure if this includes the inherent IAS that hard mode monsters have or not (but I believe it does - I haven't noticed that casting reckless haste increases the number of times a HM monster attacks, but i haven't timed it either).

Also of note is that -50% attack speed actually doesn't decrease the number of attacks in a time period by 50%, so calculations based on this assumption are faulty.

Ensign · Jan 08, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I've used both of those separately before, though I've never had room on a bar for both. Either one is really only used when Enfeebling Blood is recharging, or if a mob has condition removal. There's nothing wrong with the two skills in combination.

I'd run Reckless over Shadow of Fear if I only ran one, simply because it does more and works immediately. In situations were I'd use all 3, I wouldn't really worry about synergy with Spiteful Spirit, because Spiteful Spirit, as in those situations Spiteful Spirit is one of the weaker skills on your bar.

upier · Jan 08, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Gosh that would be a dream to run!
Sadly 8 skills only.
So Shadow pretty much wins for me when it's being used by heroes. Just because I have better options to waste my elite on then SS and it's recharge is much smaller so the guys can spam it nicely!
I did use Reckless on my necro the last time I played it though - he doesn't have Shadow unlocked yet. But then again - I did use SS then (since I need to get off my ass and start capping the better options for his elite).

I also never had a problem using SS+Shadow. I always considered the damage from SS the bonus in this combo. And because I didn't need a more efficient elite - it was good enough.