Curse

Lonesamurai · Sep 16, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Ok, so this is relatively old news, rehashed by someone that doesn't know how to test properly that then goes and flames the people who already know this and have proved he hasn't tested his theory right...

Ok, close please

fenix · Sep 16, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Yeah, if you want to test something, then post it up, do it right. Then you go and flame people for correcting you? That's a laugh. In summary:

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

Saphatorael · Sep 16, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Right, time to jump in and test it with Crit hits.

I just hopped to Isle of the Nameless, with 2 Dagger sets. One 15^50, one +5E, both are customized.

I brought one skill on my skillbar: Wild BLOW (Read the description, sheesh)

My attributes were: 13 Critical Strikes, 12 Dagger Mastery (commonly used, the spare points are put in Shadow/Deadly Arts, or a secondary's attribute.)

15^50 set on the 60 AL doll: 33 Damage.
+5e set on the 60 AL doll: 29 Damage.

15^50 set on the 80 AL doll: 23 Damage
+5e set on the 80 AL doll: 20 Damage

15^50 set on the 100 AL doll: 17 Damage
+5e set on the 100 AL doll: 14 Damage

All this testing took me less than 3 minutes. It's all that needs to be done, given the low damage 'brackets' of Daggers. The biggest difference is enough, since this is just supposed to show how it hardly matters.

Now, it's obvious that the damage hardly decreases (differences will be even smaller with non-crit hits), but it has been stated before that, in GW, the tiniest of things can matter (even split seconds, for interrupts).
Monks go full Survivor insignia, and don't put Radiant insignia on their armor. They prefer 5 Health over 1 Energy (even though Energy Denial isn't that popular anymore, because of... zomg weapon swapping), for a reason.

To ensure that you're able to kill them, you'll need just that tiny extra bit of damage from the 15^50 daggers, imo. Dagger chains consist out of 4-5 skills, and that'll be 15-30 more damage in the spike if you have 15^50 Daggers.

If I'm DP'ed, and really need the energy for the chain, I'll switch to my +5e set. But for now, I'm still not too lazy to press F1 and F2 every now and then.

THESE NUMBERS are more valid than those from the OP. It's up to you wether you want to go for a little bit of extra damage, or use your +5e set straight away (if you barely have enough energy to do it with a +5e set in the start already, if you're DP'ed, your spike can't work, unless you get lucky with crit hits.. and I prefer to not depend on luck).
Or as stated before, long story short: it's a matter of preference.
Or, you could make up for it by switching to a vamp +5e set when spiking.

PS: And err, how could you even bother trying to make stats using only 10 hits? That's not representative at all. I may have tested using only 1 hit per set, per doll, but I've manipulated the conditions for actual representative results, as opposed to you.

EDIT: Heh, I just read the OP again, more thoroughly this time... not to bash you or anything (I'm breaking down your theory and calculations, rather), but it's just a confirmation that your statistics are utter tripe.

Quote:

* Hitting critical hits sort of messed the averages up,

Quote:

UNDENIABLE PROOF

Undeniable proof when you admit there's a fault in the calculations? Even if you 'solve' the problem by directing us to the possibility of Critical Hits, which has no relevance at all to the actual damage being dealt (or, more importantly, the difference between the 2 inscriptions)?
Your stats are equally valid as to what you think you've proven, but, I can also use your statistics to say that I had more damage with a +5e set when doing a critical hit, than when wielding a 15^50 set and having a normal, non-crit hit. Hell yes, it's undeniable! These numbers and my statement, the possibilities of it all, +5e Daggers CAN be better than 15^50's!

Mekkakat · Sep 16, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

imo the only time a sin should swap is for elemental damage.. period.

15^50 or +5, whatever you choose of the two, i prefer 15^50.

i use 15^50 Zealous AT ALL TIMES (+30 hp) and if for whatever reason, then team would be using say.. mark of rog or something, i would swap for fire obviously.

if you swap at all besides elemental, it should (or would) only be for a longbow for pulling, and a staff of fort, and a staff of enchanting of some sort, so that you can use your hard res/heals/escape moves/shadowfarm build whatever.

and another thing.. sins that use +5 energy weapons seem kind sad imo. critical strikes with a zealous weapon should be more than enough.. and if it isnt... well.. you fail at pve. you shouldnt need some double black combo to kill some grawls...

Coloneh · Sep 16, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.

2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better.

nice try

Saphatorael · Sep 16, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.

2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better.

nice try

Try reading this?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=43

Faer · Sep 16, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

if it isnt... well.. you fail at Guild Wars.

I like fixing things.

Mekkakat · Sep 16, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.

2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better.

nice try

the damage spectrum in a game like gws doesnt allow mass quantities of damage flux in the game, otherwise, 15^50 would be doing 20-30 more damage than +5 energy crap. even if the damage is minimal, any boost in damage is going to put you at an advantage more so than the guy trying to boost his sins energy pool over 35. if you need more energy, take another set with +energy.. if you really need that swap, maybe you need more practice anyhow.

the +5 energy is a waste, when you could get an extra 4-7 damage out of each skill in your dagger chain.

Ensign · Sep 16, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Saphatorael said what needed to be said about the original posted. 10 isn't a big enough sample size to draw any real conclusions from using normal attacks.

The only thing I'd like to add is to not overlook the vampiric / zealous choice. It's almost as significant as the +5e / 15>50 choice for a given combo. Against a soft target, you're looking at +24 damage at best from 15>50 using a off/dual/off/dual, if everything cits: if nothing crits you're getting a bit better than half that; if half crit, you're getting around +19 to +20 from 15>50. Vampiric over Zealous on a 6 hit combo will do +18 every time. The energy is roughly the same as well - the Zealous is worth 6 energy over the course of a combo, +5 is worth, well, that.

There's a pretty even set of steps on your daggers for damage vs energy, vampiric/15>50, zealous/15>50 (or vampiric/+5), zealous/+5. You should probably have all of them available depending on what you need to do.

Dark Paladin X · Sep 16, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

A green Zealous Dagger of Perfect Enchanting with a +5 energy, +15% damage while enchanted, or +15% damage with -5 energy mod would be a sheer dream for me.

Coloneh · Sep 16, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Try reading this?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=43

what about it? proves me right. extra 3-4 damage is not worth limiting your combo. id rather get off more attack skills.

Mekkakat · Sep 17, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

what about it? proves me right. extra 3-4 damage is not worth limiting your combo. id rather get off more attack skills.

unless you have a dagger combo thats ten miles long, +5 wont do jack.

even a double black combo is better off 15^50 zealous +30 with ATTUNES and not +5 energy. sacrificing that so-called minimal damage, might be what cost you a round in TA after all that armor ignoring damage is migitated.

imho, if you have more than 5 dagger attack skills, you flat out have no clue how to play a sin, and even 5 is pushing it. its that exact scenario, the lack of utility and self-support in sins, that gives us a bad rep. its like the "selfish warrior" people tell you to stay away from. there's no i in team, and theres no auto win with 6 attack skills either.

moriz · Sep 17, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

much better question would be: why are you even bothering with energy? given the power of the SP sin, you'll be gaining most of your energy back on the first hit (black lotus strike). if you are not running a SP... then why aren't you? it's the best combo available. and why are you bothering with 15^50? just go with 15 while in a stance.

keep in mind that the above comment is for organized pvp (gvg, ha, ta). SP sins don't work too well in pve.

Kiba of hidden leaf · Sep 17, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

much better question would be: why are you even bothering with energy? given the power of the SP sin, you'll be gaining most of your energy back on the first hit (black lotus strike). if you are not running a SP... then why aren't you? it's the best combo available. and why are you bothering with 15^50? just go with 15 while in a stance.

keep in mind that the above comment is for organized pvp (gvg, ha, ta). SP sins don't work too well in pve.

Correction. It's the most used combo.

Other combos including Moebius - Death Blossom make much better use of the 15 ^ 50 than a spike build. The mod becomes more affective the higher your auto-attack damage is and the more frequent you are hitting.

Symbol · Sep 17, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

When will people learn that +energy is not energy management.

If you need +5e just to combo, your build is bad and you should feel bad.

+5e daggers should be a swap, not your primary set.

Abedeus · Sep 17, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Or that combo is energy-extensive and REQUIRES higher energy, to minimize time between each combo. Saying to an ele ,,why you use + energy on staff, if you can't live without energy even with ES, you suck!'' or to monk ,,+12 offhand? get a shield, you won't need that much energy if you know how to use skills!'' is a stupid thing. You MUST be prepared that, for example with SP sin someone will remove your hex before you attack (pre-veiled target, monk with fast reflexes), or you encounter e-denial. Sins are as complex as mesmers, and they must be prepared for almost anything.
And yes, I use +5 ene daggers. +4 dmg each attack is worth nothing. Oh, and one thing. I use my combo, 30 energy went to hell, I got 15 energy back from combo... And I want ~10-13 seconds for my energy to regen? No. I will use +5 ene daggers and wait only 5-7 seconds. Almost twice as much combos, no? Yes, you can use math against me. I don't care. 15^50, 15^ench and other damage mods should be used on high-damage weapon like hammer or scythe or medium-damage, like sword, axe or spear.

Saphatorael · Sep 17, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

what about it? proves me right. extra 3-4 damage is not worth limiting your combo. id rather get off more attack skills.

Yes, I have tested things by myself (and it's more accurate than the OP), but I have stated in that very post, that it IS a matter of preference, and I explained why I myself use 15^50 standardly, and the +5e set in emergencies (most obvious example would be if I'm DP'ed).

Your opinion isn't truth; if you've read the entire thread, you've seen that multiple people (even Ensign) have arguments against your bold statement.
+5e has its uses, but a lot of people still swear by +damage inscriptions, for the results I have calculated (and likely even other reasons).

So, as a recap: my calculations are NOT meant to prove anything for either side. You can use them as a comparison, then pick your favorite inscription. I picked the other side (compared to you), but I have stated why I have this preference. You did not, and just shouted that I somehow claimed that +5e is the best mod.
If you fail to understand this, go read the post again. And again. And again.
Have you still not understood GW's premise? There is no best gear/skillset. You adapt. This can be in playing style, positioning, timing, gear, etc.
I prefer adapting.

Come back and post something useful, after you've learned to argument properly, and bring up actual facts/calculations as to why +5e would be better than anything else.

ValaOfTheFens · Sep 17, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I don't understand the point of this thread. The initial experiment doesn't prove much because the OP only put points in Dagger Mastery. *shrug* What kind of Assassin doesn't put any AP into Critical Strikes?

There's no way to prove one is better than the other. If PvE was the same in every area then you could conduct a test like this and the results would be reliable. However, given the wide variety of PvE experiences this experiment doesn't provide any relevent data.

Yanman.be · Sep 17, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Vala, he tried to make an objective experiment but failed. So yeah...you're both wrong in that PoV.

Dark Paladin X · Sep 17, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

i actually prefer a perm +15% mod with armor or energy penalty or +5 energy mod rather than +15%^50 or any conditional additional damage mods.