Curse

arcady · Oct 30, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I generally play casters, and one thing I've seen over and over again is warriors, especially the Wa/Mo variety, over taxing the groups they are in by grabbing up way too much aggro and never giving breaks for energy - such that even casters with good energy management get dragged down.

I've recently made my first warrior, and in so doing I'm seeing that the problem might not just be bad skill, but also the design of the class. Warriors do better the longer they can keep in a constant state of aggro - using it to build up adrenaline. While the warrior has very little energy, her demands for this energy are amazingly light. Whenever I am out of or low on energy, I am usually full on adrenaline, and vice versa.

The warrior is, by design, the biggest tax on a groups ability to manage energy.

Now, presently, my skill as a warrior is obviously not great, as I'm new to it. The one thing I have going for me is that I have experience playing casters - so I am -aware- that the issue exists even with good caster energy management.

Good weapon skill helps get adrenaline fast (mine is 14 sword and 12 tactics right now), but even with that... a lot of the issue comes from finding ways to know or feel the energy needs of the rest of the group. My cycle is opposite of theirs - when I am at my peak they are at their low, and vice versa. When I have full adrenaline, chances are they are low on energy, and when my adrenaline is gone, they are likely full and ready to go.

So... now that I know there is another side to this, that I can't just roll my eyes and call all the warriors I meet 'noobs', how does a warrior avoid being an energy drain, and yet still keep up her own adrenaline needs?

What specific tips would one want to keep in mind to avoid being seen as a 'wammo' warrior?

Stormlord Alex · Oct 30, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

What specific tips would one want to keep in mind to avoid being seen as a 'wammo' warrior?

Use a half-decent build that can kill stuff (no Healing Prayers!), learn to watch enemy patrols and stuff to try not to pull extra mobs, and... well... in a PuG, a quick 'rdy?' before engaging the next mob, to check everyone's Energy.
Listen to Energy pings, take a skill like 'Watch Yourself!' to support the team... simple stuff.

iridescentfyre · Oct 30, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Warrior was my first character, 28 months ago. I can say with a great deal of confidence that there is nothing wrong with the design of the Warrior with respect to group energy needs. The class itself is not what determines how fast the melee player advances to the next group of enemies.. that's that player's choice. Personally I have no problems with allowing my adrenaline to decay after a battle--there's 7 other players/heroes/henchmen in my party, many of them also doing damage as well. I would consider it highly, highly retarded to rush into a new fight just because my Galrath Slash is charged up.

I play mostly with heroes/henches. I can monitor their energy, and while I usually do not wait for them to regen except in extreme circumstances, they scarcely seem to need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Good weapon skill helps get adrenaline fast (mine is 14 sword and 12 tactics right now),

Additional ranks in weapon mastery do not contribute to greater/faster adrenaline gain, if that's what you're suggesting here.

Whiskeyjack · Oct 30, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

This is a problem I have really only encountered with pug's tbh and like most problems it really come's down to bad communication, it has nothing at all to do with warriors being an tax on energy. If you are a caster and are low on energy after(or during) a fight it is your responisbility to ping your energy so the party as a whole is aware that you need time to recharge.

As a warrior in a Pug your best bet is to mention to your party in the outpost to ping their energy when low, this will save you having to ask after every couple of fight's.

Regarding adenaline, it is in fact very easy to gain quickly using enraging charge>FGJ, which should set you up to hit hard right from the get go. If you are having problem's in this regard it may be an idea to post your build and get some constructive criticism from some of the experienced warriors on this board.

The best way to avoid being seen like a Wammo is not to act like one, be careful to only aggro one mob at a time and if you are uncomfortable with how close certain mob's are to each other, pull one of the mob's away with a longbow. Another typical Wammo mistake seems to be how far ahead of the party they tend to go, you should always be infront but not so far ahead that you can't be immediatley supported by the rest of your party, this is probably the biggest cause of Wammo death's in my experience.

Hope that help's, good luck.

arcady · Oct 30, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Warrior was my first character, 28 months ago. I can say with a great deal of confidence that there is nothing wrong with the design of the Warrior with respect to group energy needs.

What I mean is that the design encourages rush. If you're a solo warrior, you maximize adrenal usage by staying on the run, and if you can keep your health intact, that will maximize your play. I suspect the philosophy behind making a Wa/Mo is that they believe that in so doing they can stay on the run eternally - or nearly so - never 'wasting' any adrenaline.

The only reason a warrior ever goes off the run is for the rest of the team. Even a poor player knows this is a good idea to do, but it is not, near as I can tell, the way the warrior itself is designed. It's the only class without its own built in need to cycle down. Where every other class has less 'fuel' the more active it gets, and needs to either manage use v. regain, the warrior has more fuel the more active it gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Additional ranks in weapon mastery do not contribute to greater/faster adrenaline gain, if that's what you're suggesting here.

My mistake. Warrior is new for me, and that mistake was based on a post in these forums. Just read a wiki article on adrenaline and I see it is gained differently. I had thought I ganed 'x' per hit and that 'x' was linked to my weapon attribute.

Draginvry · Oct 31, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

The dilemma you mention does not exist, and it is created solely by idiots who like to run into mobs when they only have half health from the last skirmish.

There is no adrenal conflict with energy management. If people are low on energy, you wait before engaging the next conflict, regardless of how much adrenaline you may have built up from the last battle, or how usefull you think such adrenaline actually is. The fact of the matter is that the energy of an elementalist or a monk is not only harder for them to regain mid-battle than your adrenaline is, but it is also much more important to the team as a whole.

Playing a warrior is about understanding how to manage your team's position in relation to the enemy. You have the most armor. Your first priority should be distracting the enemy so they don't go after your casters. Once the enemy is properly distracted, THEN you can worry about dishing out the big damage. If you want a class where immediately dishing out damage is the top priority, you should probably be playing an Assassin, if not an elementalist.

Tank'n'spank is the key. And it works. Don't go thinking that all warriors are a detriment to the team just because Joe Wammo goes rushing off into a dozen mobs without even bringing along Heal Sig.

Quote:

The best way to avoid being seen like a Wammo is not to act like one

I have a good trick for not being seen as a Wammo. It's a good trick, and it works like a charm. It's called W/A

Savio · Oct 31, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

There is no adrenal conflict with energy management. If people are low on energy, you wait before engaging the next conflict, regardless of how much adrenaline you may have built up from the last battle, or how usefull you think such adrenaline actually is. The fact of the matter is that the energy of an elementalist or a monk is not only harder for them to regain mid-battle than your adrenaline is, but it is also much more important to the team as a whole.

Or you go with people who actually know how to manage their energy, and you don't have to stand around for ages waiting for "My Energy is 102 out of 102."

Quote:

Playing a warrior is about understanding how to manage your team's position in relation to the enemy. You have the most armor. Your first priority should be distracting the enemy so they don't go after your casters. Once the enemy is properly distracted, THEN you can worry about dishing out the big damage. If you want a class where immediately dishing out damage is the top priority, you should probably be playing an Assassin, if not an elementalist.

Wrong, warriors just charge in and kill shit. Defense aside from SY/WY is pointless.

Magnus_1 · Oct 31, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

I have a good trick for not being seen as a Wammo. It's a good trick, and it works like a charm. It's called W/A

Do sins have a hard res? Just about the only reason I ever run a W/Mo is for Rebirth because I would rather be packing that than Res Sig.

Draginvry · Oct 31, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnus_1

Do sins have a hard res?

No, but there are a couple of Deadly Arts skills that can be usefull in certain situations.

Ritualist has a hard res, though. And Splinter Weapon to boot. You can't beat that.

Draginvry · Oct 31, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Wrong, warriors just charge in and kill shit. Defense aside from SY/WY is pointless.

I never said you needed Doylak Signet or anything. I was merely stating how charging in mindlessly trying to headbutt your way through the game isn't necessarily the best way to play a warrior in relation to the rest of the team, contrary to what the last three wammo's I've played with seem to believe.

EDIT: Argh! Double post. I fail.

Batou of Nine · Oct 31, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Read this.

If new players are of the rare non-lazy type, they would search, read, learn and get better on their own. Aggro, skill selection, Ai behavior, teamplay strategy, aggro pulling... all SHOULD be understood by the average player, but i'd say about 75% of warrior players still don't get it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

So... now that I know there is another side to this, that I can't just roll my eyes and call all the warriors I meet 'noobs', how does a warrior avoid being an energy drain, and yet still keep up her own adrenaline needs?

What specific tips would one want to keep in mind to avoid being seen as a 'wammo' warrior?

- skill choices, learn em love em, learn em again.

- search for the multitude of guides, builds, videos created in abundance already existing JUST for players like you

cheers.

Winterclaw · Oct 31, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

A few tips:

-In pve pressure is usually better than spike. Most mobs die fairly quickly with the right application of pressure.
-Always bring a self heal of some sort, if only to allieviate the monk's job.
-Watch yourself is a useful group defense buff
-Depending on where you are going, a condition removal or hex removal from your secondary is good.
-With 14 in your weapon skill and no skills, you still have a fairly high DPS with a sword or axe.
-Most warrior builds are usually elite attack, attack, attack, IAS, speed boost to cancel IAS, self heal, def/utility, res... so start from there.
-Watch your stinking radar. Make it bigger if you have to. And watch your party's health bars and energy pings. Forgetting this is a part of bad warrioring.
-It's better to have to regain ade then charging ahead. If you need more you can always whack a mob and switch targets.
-If you call a target, do so once and don't spam. Also learn which mobs to go after first.
-Keep an eye on your conditions and hexes and learn which ones you can attack through and which ones to call for the monk to deal with.
-Conjure element spells now ignore armor on the bonus damage, consider going W/E at times.

Stormlord Alex · Oct 31, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

I never said you needed Doylak Signet or anything. I was merely stating how charging in mindlessly trying to headbutt your way through the game isn't necessarily the best way to play a warrior in relation to the rest of the team, contrary to what the last three wammo's I've played with seem to believe.

... actually... it is.
Charge in, take initial aggro... And Brawling Headbutt is silly strong on a Warrior.

iridescentfyre · Oct 31, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

I never said you needed Doylak Signet or anything. I was merely stating how charging in mindlessly trying to headbutt your way through the game isn't necessarily the best way to play a warrior in relation to the rest of the team, contrary to what the last three wammo's I've played with seem to believe.

On the contrary, the Wammos I've played with all seem to think they have to be tanks with no IAS skill, no damage output, and stand around (or hobble along at 25% their normal speed) while pretending Mending is keeping them alive. PvE is easy, your group benefits in the end from things dying faster... if your Monks can't heal, bring heroes because they can.

Spellforge · Oct 31, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

If you are in a PUG just let your adrenaline go and let the casters get back their energy.
As you rely on adrenaline and not energy unlike most classes you should be playing towards the majorities needs - not the minorities (yours)
Warrior was my first character and still jointly main with my necro. If you are in a pug don't go from group to group without resting up - each group needs more or less time to rest up depending on skills , proffessions and play style so you have to re gauge this every pug.
I've never been in a pug where people have shouted
"you n00b warrior - why didn't you keep charging from group to group"

But I have seen plenty of
"would you just wait or minute"
or just refusing to follow the warrior

As to being a wammo - don't choose monk secondary
w/n for plague touch to rid yourself of conditions
w/e for conjour elements
w/rt or w/p if you really really want a hard rez

never w/m in a group - if you do you'll be tempted to put points into healing
(stick to the warriors own self heals)

Stormlord Alex · Oct 31, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spellforge

never w/m in a group - if you do you'll be tempted to put points into healing
(stick to the warriors own self heals)

On the contrary, W/Mo appeals to me more than ever in a PuG, PuG monks are bad by default and can't even spell 'Condition Removal'.

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 31, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

On the contrary, W/Mo appeals to me more than ever in a PuG, PuG monks are bad by default and can't even spell 'Condition Removal'.

True, PuG monks don't know what conditions and hexes are, but PuG W/Mo's don't know what an IAS is, what Watch Yourself does, that Dragon Slash and Eviscerate exist, that you don't have to use useless attributes like healing prayers, etc.

Hero/Hench teams >>> PuGs

Omniclasm · Nov 01, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Just roll a Paragon, take a Paragon hero, then fill the rest with random heroes/hench and C-Space the whole game without needing breaks between battles.

arcady · Nov 01, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I PUG monk a lot, and I tend to focus my condition removal, along with my heals, towards things I think are going to need to be removed. Sometimes I deliberately won't take either hex or condition removal with me if I believe that either (a) my prots / heals can keep up or (b) very few hostiles in the mission will use hexes or conditions.

I'll always have one or the other of the two, condition or hex removal, but not always both. Sometimes I'll use that other slot for some other prot-spell.

Usually I only get deaths in the party when there are one or more Wa/Mos with us. Any other composition, even one without any of Warrior, Dervish, or Tank, and I can keep the group alive better.

And those deaths usually result from Wa/Mos that keep pressing forward, grabbing up new mobs constantly rather than stopping to let the rest of the group recoup energy.

My new warrior is Wa/R (see other thread about finding a good early elite).

Winterclaw · Nov 01, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

that keep pressing forward, grabbing up new mobs constantly rather than stopping to let the rest of the group recoup energy.

That's the problem and not the W/mo part. Also if they are so desperate to keep their ade up and keeping this I posted earlier in mind:

Quote:

-With 14 in your weapon skill and no skills, you still have a fairly high DPS with a sword or axe.

It's probable they are pretty bad players. With a customized sword I can do 23dps against master of damage. If I add conjure frost with 8 water, that jumps to 31dps. And this is without an IAS. Add one of those and your DPS increases even further.

Anyways, it isn't that a wammo is bad... IMO if all your w/mo brings is flail, a customized sword, 14 in swords, and LoD with 10 in healing, that's probably a good enough build for 80%+ of all the areas in the game. The problem is it attracts a lot of bad players.