Curse

Spazzer · Oct 29, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

(Your statement that monks keep their eyes on the health bars is fail.)

...Play GW better imo?

bungusmaximus · Oct 30, 2007, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I don't mean to contradict you here.... but I don't get it.
Monks' attention is on the health-bars of the party... right? Most everyone else will have their attention on the enemy... which isn't conducive to resurrecting team-mates.

Monk's attention is to the party members, no matter what class you play, seeing things coming is always better then fixing afterwards. Wether monks take res or not depends on the team. Play with strangers->take rez, play with people you trust->leave res at home.

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Your monk apparently has a very different build to the template monk then...

(Your statement that monks keep their eyes on the health bars is fail.)

Anyway. As a Monk, in battle, you are - have to be - having to be constantly be able to repair any damage that is taken by party members. What happens when you take 6s to Resurrection Chant that dead Warrior? Not only will your party be endangered, you'd probably be dead for going too far out as well. Conversely, caster classes can stop for three seconds to cast a Ressig, or Glyphsac/Reschant, or Death Pact Signet that dead Warrior. While the frontline ressing generally means a short period of no damage, at least the team isn't dying while you're ressing. (I'd also like to ask you...who do you think is keeping your party alive, apart from you, and a possible/probable second monk? While it is generally true for lower-level NM PvE that a Monk ressing will not kill anybody, in higher levels it is too risky. Basic defensive tactics such as kiting does only so much.)

And if you're playing as frontline and start to not notice your party...

...Play GW better imo?

Let me put it this way.... I have a fairly one-track mind. When I'm focused on killing things.... my focus is 100% on killing things, and sometimes I'm left thinking "Where did the rest of my party go?" .... It happens. I can't multi-task. Generally it doesn't matter. I concentrate on doing my job and the others concentrate on doing theirs. It works out.

But this is what gets to be the issue when I try to play monk. I can't watch both the party healthbars AND what is going on around the battlefield in close detail at the same time. I can generally only just manage enough to kite occasionally to avoid major damage... and occasionally I end up dead while trying to keep everyone else alive.

For what it is worth though... I ALWAYS bring at least a second monk and occasionally a third with me. There are always one or two additional members of the party on general defensive detail (Paragons or Earth Eles... generally). I usually have Interrupts placed all around to prevent any nasty spell damage. With all this.... I've never really had to worry about whether one of the Monks at the back is resurrecting or not.... as most of the time the party doesn't actually require healing. Mitigation FTW.

So.... basically.... I want to know aside from the Monking thing... how many things I'm "doing wrong", what is "wrong" about them and how I should do them "right".

LightningHell · Oct 30, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Let me put it this way.... I have a fairly one-track mind. When I'm focused on killing things.... my focus is 100% on killing things, and sometimes I'm left thinking "Where did the rest of my party go?" .... It happens. I can't multi-task. Generally it doesn't matter. I concentrate on doing my job and the others concentrate on doing theirs. It works out.

But this is what gets to be the issue when I try to play monk. I can't watch both the party healthbars AND what is going on around the battlefield in close detail at the same time. I can generally only just manage enough to kite occasionally to avoid major damage... and occasionally I end up dead while trying to keep everyone else alive.

For what it is worth though... I ALWAYS bring at least a second monk and occasionally a third with me. There are always one or two additional members of the party on general defensive detail (Paragons or Earth Eles... generally). I usually have Interrupts placed all around to prevent any nasty spell damage. With all this.... I've never really had to worry about whether one of the Monks at the back is resurrecting or not.... as most of the time the party doesn't actually require healing. Mitigation FTW.

So.... basically.... I want to know aside from the Monking thing... how many things I'm "doing wrong", what is "wrong" about them and how I should do them "right".

I'd like to note that when you bring a midline character geared defensively, the opportunity cost would be a midline-offense character, or a frontline offense character. With all the defense that one can pack in a midline, it's pretty hard to die in NM, yes. But you're also gimping your group by bringing less damage.

Also, note that if the party doesn't require healing, going as a Monk is a waste of a character...and if the party doesn't require healing, how do people die in the first place?

In general PvE it is not really needed to have superb battlefield awareness - it's usually a good thing to notice four melees pummeling your friendly Ele and put Guardian/SoA/Spirit Bond on him first followed by a heal instead of, say Reversal of Fortune.

Lastly...GW is a team game. The team achieves its goals by working as a team, and generally you have to be considerate of your own teammates and such. While this is stressed far more in PvP, where you aren't facing AI, it also helps in PvE, as it will help your party function as a group better.

Also, if you don't notice people dying until half your party is dead, then...apart from you needing to pay more attention to the party, it also effectively tells you your party sucks balls, as they are making no visible contribution whatsoever.

I probably left a point or two untouched.

Cebe · Oct 30, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I'd better face the facts.... I'm not a good Heal monk and I'm not a particularly good Prot monk either. I do slightly better with PuG teams than I do with my herohench as for some reason they seem inclined to prat around like a bunch of idiots whenever I try to do the whole heal-monk routine.

As such, I've tried running a Smiting build, and it seems to fix the AI issues (they apparently need me to be attacking the enemies and not merely target-pinging)... BUT... the Signet-Smite build I use, while good enough against single opponents, is all but worthless against groups and is slow enough to bug me.

Are there any good Smiting Monk builds with reasonable AoE damage AND proper Energy Management?

I hear you in that playing defensively as a monk with henchmen can be awkward - I've never really liked it, much preferred at least one other human player around when I play as monk so that I can play defensively.

A while back way before Eye of the North came out I created a Smite-only monk and was using the following:
[skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill][skill]Balthazar's Aura[/skill][skill]Reversal of Damage[/skill][skill]Spear of Light[/skill][skill]Ray of Judgment[/skill][skill]Smite Hex[/skill][skill]Bane Signet[/skill]
No, I didn't have a res.

Jimmy didn't do "res".
The build was fun to play, and got the job done. Clearly other classes will out-damage it but as far as "getting through missions" goes it served it's purpose. I used to take a warrior (hero or hench, didn't much matter) so as I had something to cast Balthazar's Aura on (AoE that follows it's target!

). Only thing is I had to watch when I used Ray of Judgment to make sure I didn't disable Power Drain and A.I. when I knew I was likely to need them. I guess with Eye of the North out now Smite Condition could fit in there somewhere, and Castigation Signet maybe.. *shrugs*

What about maintaining things like [wiki]Holy Wrath[/wiki] and [wiki]Retribution[/wiki] on players, heroes or hench who are likely to take damage, and just load up with Signets (Judgment, Bane, Castigation, Leech..)? I dunno if you like the idea of having no energy all the time but I played with someone who ran a build like that in your favourite dungeon, Shards of Orr, with great results.

I also at some point tried a build not dissimilar to Draginvry's Mo/N build. I think I used skills like [wiki]Blood Bond[/wiki], [wiki]Life Siphon[/wiki], [wiki]Well of Blood[/wiki]...as well as Smite Hex & Reversal of Damage and the like. To be honest, it was nothing to shout about, it was fun for a couple of missions.

A note about Healing monks...Protection is much better. When I go with another human I take Dunkoro and let him do the whole healing-Light-Of-Deliverance thing because he's ace at it. Protection is much more interesting and fun, and also far more useful in my opinion. It does take practice to make a good monk, but I always found it's best to practice it with Humans...that way you never know what's around the corner!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I don't mean to contradict you here.... but I don't get it.
Monks' attention is on the health-bars of the party... right? Most everyone else will have their attention on the enemy... which isn't conducive to resurrecting team-mates.

A sole Healing Monk probably only need look at the red bars and make them go up after they go down. There's no fun or skill there, it's just:
*Red bar goes down
*Use heal skill
*Red bar goes down
*Use heal skill
*Red bar goes down a bit more than normal
*Use a more potent heal skill
*Red bar goes down
*Use heal skill

See? Kinda boring. Protection monks need to watch the battlefield and protect those people who are likely to be attacked. For instance, Mr. Wammo charges in, he's going to be the first to take aggro, best cast Protective Spirit on him. A caster wanders through some AoE - They're not being targetted, they just took some splash damage, nothing Dunkoro can't fix with a healing skill. Someone's surrounded by melee...Guardian ftw...but oh, what's this? You hear the sound of a Lightning Surge about to go off...quick scan of the party members...no time to remove the hex but cast a 1/4 second Reversal of Fortune... damage avoided.

That sort of active protecting is why I find monking in Alliance Battles so addictive.

As for the Res issue. Once upon a time I used to use Healer's Boon, and I used to in-battle res with Res Chant. Please don't kill me. These days I often will not give my monk heroes a res, or if I do I disable it, and only take one myself if I play with humans.

LightningHell · Oct 30, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

A note about Healing monks...Protection is much better. When I go with another human I take Dunkoro and let him do the whole healing-Light-Of-Deliverance thing because he's ace at it. Protection is much more interesting and fun, and also far more useful in my opinion. It does take practice to make a good monk, but I always found it's best to practice it with Humans...that way you never know what's around the corner!

As an elaboration:

Generally, one uses a hybrid monk, as you really only need Light of Deliverance (and maybe Dwayna's Kiss) from the Healing line, as the rest of Healing Prayers is mainly trash. A Protection template with a heal skill or two is optimal, as protection generally mitigates more damage than healing when used properly, but kinda needs help with pushing red bars back up. With Light of Deliverance, the little bits of damage that come through generally get mopped up.

Quote:

As for the Res issue. Once upon a time I used to use Healer's Boon, and I used to in-battle res with Res Chant. Please don't kill me. These days I often will not give my monk heroes a res, or if I do I disable it, and only take one myself if I play with humans.

I KILL'D U.

Elaboration - Generally, monks carrying resurrection skills when going with an unfamiliar team is fine - but it's better not to res mid-battle.

Cebe · Oct 30, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Generally, one uses a hybrid monk, as you really only need Light of Deliverance (and maybe Dwayna's Kiss) from the Healing line, as the rest of Healing Prayers is mainly trash. A Protection template with a heal skill or two is optimal, as protection generally mitigates more damage than healing when used properly, but kinda needs help with pushing red bars back up. With Light of Deliverance, the little bits of damage that come through generally get mopped up.

Yes, My Flunkoro invariably packs Protective Spirit these days, and also Aegis. Divine Favor seems a bit redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Elaboration - Generally, monks carrying resurrection skills when going with an unfamiliar team is fine - but it's better not to res mid-battle.

I probably should have said that. Quoted and Emboldened for importance.

LightningHell · Oct 30, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Divine Favor seems a bit redundant.

Generally I go for a 10+1/10+1+1/11+1 spec when I go Mo/E for Glyph, or 10+1/10+1/9+1+!/7 if going Mo/A or Mo/W. No reason not to go Divine Favor if you can reasonably balance the rest of your attributes, and a level or two of prot less isn't going to kill.

Now, if this were a pure-healing build, maybe it would matter more.

And Divine Favor has Blessed Light which means instawin. (Not really. I just overly like it, without a real rational reason.)

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'd like to note that when you bring a midline character geared defensively, the opportunity cost would be a midline-offense character, or a frontline offense character. With all the defense that one can pack in a midline, it's pretty hard to die in NM, yes. But you're also gimping your group by bringing less damage.

"Enough" damage generally suits me fine. I'd rather have an excess of defensive power and simply "adequate" offensive power than the other way around.... as offensive power is primarily dependant on the effectiveness of the defensive power.
More often than not though I tend to try and keep the two balanced. I have half the party set to offensive and half to defensive.... or some portion inbetween as mixed offensive / defensive (e.g. Herta). GW:EN has taught me much that my 2x Fire Ele and Minion Master exploits in Cantha, Tyria and Elona didn't.

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Also, note that if the party doesn't require healing, going as a Monk is a waste of a character...and if the party doesn't require healing, how do people die in the first place?

The party always requires healing.
It just doesn't require so much of it that it can't survive if one of the monks is otherwise engaged for a few seconds. I generally try to base my herohench builds on the notion that the party needs to be able to survive even if a couple of members are temporarily removed.... which invariably happens from time to time.... and then do my best to make sure that circumstance doesn't even arise.
Is that wrong?

Quote:

In general PvE it is not really needed to have superb battlefield awareness - it's usually a good thing to notice four melees pummeling your friendly Ele and put Guardian/SoA/Spirit Bond on him first followed by a heal instead of, say Reversal of Fortune.

In the times when I have monked... I am generally watching the health-bars. I can tell someone is being attacked when their health-bar starts to go down... and I stick a spell on them (usually Prot Spirit or Shield of Absorption if I have them). While I can see that someone is being wailed on at the start of the battle... since it is easier to see what is going on when the enemies converge on someone... that is about the extent of knowing what is going on.
In the midst of the battle, when everyone is running like headless chickens all over the place (I refer to herohench), I find it difficult to conclude on the fly who is who and which humanoid figure corresponds to which healthbar... which I select by (trying to click on someone on-screen usually results in my character moving due to ground-click or accidentally targeting the enemy).

At least when I'm playing an offensive character I can Tab through the enemies quickly to target the one posing the greatest threat. I don't have enough readily accessable keys on my keyboard to make that an option with allies when Monking.

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Lastly...GW is a team game. The team achieves its goals by working as a team, and generally you have to be considerate of your own teammates and such. While this is stressed far more in PvP, where you aren't facing AI, it also helps in PvE, as it will help your party function as a group better.

Not to be contrary here... but my lungs don't know what my liver is doing... and my heart pays very little heed to my pancreas. Teamwork needn't involve mutual awareness when everyone is doing a very specific job. When it comes down to it... I'd rather be 100% focused on one job than 50% focused on two separate tasks (not least because single-minded, obsessive focus on a single task is my forté).

Quote:

Also, if you don't notice people dying until half your party is dead, then...apart from you needing to pay more attention to the party, it also effectively tells you your party sucks balls, as they are making no visible contribution whatsoever.

More often than not... if it concerns PuGs... then other people dying is their own fault primarily. It only becomes my fault if they are being killed by something that I was supposed to have killed first.
When it comes to herohench, the blame is half split between A-Net (for making crappy AI) and myself (for not compensating for that crappiness).

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I probably left a point or two untouched.

I wouldn't know.
I didn't mean to be contradicting you.... but analysing and picking things apart is how I tend to deal with advice. I like to be 100% certain about what folks are advising me to do...

bungusmaximus · Oct 30, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

In the times when I have monked... I am generally watching the health-bars. I can tell someone is being attacked when their health-bar starts to go down... and I stick a spell on them (usually Prot Spirit or Shield of Absorption if I have them).

That's exactly what you are doing wrong, if you would have put these prots on the target just before they were going to be damaged you would have mitigated more damage. Of course PvE is rather lenient so it isn't game breaking, but it is the difference between a good monk and a mediocre one.

The team can help too, if people mess up their positioning and start tanking stuff with 60 armor level they shouldn't blame the monk because he can't keep up.

I also find the above easier in, say, TA where there's only 4 opponents instead of when I face a mob of 10 monsters spewing AoE all over the place, so there is some health bar watching involved (me being a not-so-good monk doesn't help that either), but it's true nonetheless.

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

That's exactly what you are doing wrong, if you would have put these prots on the target just before they were going to be damaged you would have mitigated more damage. Of course PvE is rather lenient so it isn't game breaking, but it is the difference between a good monk and a mediocre one.

But how can I tell who is going to get damaged?
Maybe the enemy warriors make it obvious who they're targeting, but enemy spellcasters just stand at the back and cast spells... and I have NO clue who they're casting them AT in order to know who to protect (it makes it FAR easier to play a damager, as you know who precisely the biggest threats on the enemy team are going to be in order to eliminate them).
I just tend to assume that whoever they start casting things at (i.e. health going down) they're going to continue casting at... and then throw the protects in.

Would you be able to tell me how precisely one predicts where the damage is going to be?

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The team can help too, if people mess up their positioning and start tanking stuff with 60 armor level they shouldn't blame the monk because he can't keep up.

Oh entirely... or even right to the far extreme. I strongly believe that the primary responsibility for keeping each team-member alive falls squarely on THAT team-member... and only secondarily on the Monks (or Rits / Paragons). The difference between a good party and a bad party becomes apparent VERY quickly if the monks are taken out of the picture (and when Mhenlo and Lina are the monks in question, that is relatively frequently).

Cebe · Oct 30, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Would you be able to tell me how precisely one predicts where the damage is going to be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me, from earlier

Protection monks need to watch the battlefield and protect those people who are likely to be attacked. For instance, Mr. Wammo charges in, he's going to be the first to take aggro, best cast Protective Spirit on him. A caster wanders through some AoE - They're not being targetted, they just took some splash damage, nothing Dunkoro can't fix with a healing skill. Someone's surrounded by melee...Guardian ftw...but oh, what's this? You hear the sound of a Lightning Surge about to go off...quick scan of the party members...no time to remove the hex but cast a 1/4 second Reversal of Fortune... damage avoided.

In short, you need to watch where people are. Watch what they're doing, where they're going. Watch who the monsters are heading for.

Pre-protecting with Protective Spirit and the like is a great way of negating damage. Generally I do this to the first person to catch aggro, and then to others who I deem to be "vulnerable targets". So, if I'm playing with an Ele who likes to run up to foes to use Inferno, I'll cast Protective Spirit on them too, because the liklihood of them taking damage will increase.

If you see someone being bashed around by melee, or a caster being targetted by an interrupt ranger, time for a Guardian / Shield of Deflection.

It is necessary to keep half an eye on the party bar to watch out for hexes and conditions though.

Some skills (such as Lightning Surge, as I suggested) have very recognisable casting sounds / graphic effects so you can tell if some protection is needed. If you see the Blinding Flash graphic on your warrior, time for a Dismiss Condition. Watching the battlefield in this way should lead to faster response times by you and less spamming of "I have blind on me!" by warriors etc.. Clearly you can't read a monster's mind, but with a little practice, you'll see they are reasonably predictable.

Jeremy Untouchable · Oct 30, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Dual Booning is my current favorite flavor of smiting build.

- Divine Boon
- Smiter's Boon
- Reversal of Damage
- Smite Condition
- Smite Hex
- Castigation Signet

Two slots left for an elite and a res. For me, that's Signet of Judgement and Death Pact Signet.

What he said/\/\ this build rocks...

bungusmaximus · Oct 30, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

But how can I tell who is going to get damaged?
Maybe the enemy warriors make it obvious who they're targeting, but enemy spellcasters just stand at the back and cast spells...

Look who they face, tht's the easiest way. Again party positioning is key here again because if there are 5 people balled up it's hard to save them from incoming AoE. If you have the idea someone MIGHT be targeted in the future you can choose to already precast a prot spirit (for instance on a warrior that runs in first).

A minimap with 3 red dots converging on 1 friendly one might give you an idea as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Oh entirely... or even right to the far extreme. I strongly believe that the primary responsibility for keeping each team-member alive falls squarely on THAT team-member... and only secondarily on the Monks (or Rits / Paragons).

qft, not kiting, standing in AoE and whatnot aren't the monks responsibility. Of course any reasonable monk will try to do his best anyways but that just proves the monk l33tness and the player's suckness.

It's all easier said then done of course, I struggle with it sometimes too, monk is not the only profession that requires pro-active play (think warrior with bull's strike here) but practice makes perfect

. In the end pro-active play gets you farther then reactive play no matter what you play.

Oh and always bring +20% enchant duration gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Some skills (such as Lightning Surge, as I suggested) have very recognisable casting sounds / graphic effects so you can tell if some protection is needed. If you see the Blinding Flash graphic on your warrior, time for a Dismiss Condition. Watching the battlefield in this way should lead to faster response times by you and less spamming of "I have blind on me!" by warriors etc.. Clearly you can't read a monster's mind, but with a little practice, you'll see they are reasonably predictable.

I forgot that one, listen to the wise and puissant beaver and pwn face :P

LightningHell · Oct 30, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

"Enough" damage generally suits me fine. I'd rather have an excess of defensive power and simply "adequate" offensive power than the other way around.... as offensive power is primarily dependant on the effectiveness of the defensive power.
More often than not though I tend to try and keep the two balanced. I have half the party set to offensive and half to defensive.... or some portion inbetween as mixed offensive / defensive (e.g. Herta). GW:EN has taught me much that my 2x Fire Ele and Minion Master exploits in Cantha, Tyria and Elona didn't.

There's your answer. You prefer to play more defensively, instead of maxing out the optimal possible damage. That's probably why people don't die.

Quote:

The party always requires healing.
It just doesn't require so much of it that it can't survive if one of the monks is otherwise engaged for a few seconds. I generally try to base my herohench builds on the notion that the party needs to be able to survive even if a couple of members are temporarily removed.... which invariably happens from time to time.... and then do my best to make sure that circumstance doesn't even arise.
Is that wrong?

What if a monk is dead?
What if a monk and a midline defensive character is dead?
What if you're encountering some of the above, and two of your allies (perhaps including yourself) is having their ass handed back to them?

Such situations will break a team, even if left alone for 6 seconds. And if a character can die, it might as well be a midline, or even a monk.

Quote:

In the times when I have monked... I am generally watching the health-bars. I can tell someone is being attacked when their health-bar starts to go down... and I stick a spell on them (usually Prot Spirit or Shield of Absorption if I have them). While I can see that someone is being wailed on at the start of the battle... since it is easier to see what is going on when the enemies converge on someone... that is about the extent of knowing what is going on.
In the midst of the battle, when everyone is running like headless chickens all over the place (I refer to herohench), I find it difficult to conclude on the fly who is who and which humanoid figure corresponds to which healthbar... which I select by (trying to click on someone on-screen usually results in my character moving due to ground-click or accidentally targeting the enemy).

However, you can still see...for example, using a previous example, if a character has four melee characters on him, it's probably best to use Guardian/Spirit Bond/SoA, and not cast something else. However, if you see an Elementalist or two wrecking them, putting Guardian might not be the best idea. You can also anticipate attacks, although this applies a lot less to PvE. Also, such damage patterns are recognizable enough in PvE, so one can argue that you don't necessarily need to watch the field to play properly - however, it greatly enhances ones ability to prot properly.

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At least when I'm playing an offensive character I can Tab through the enemies quickly to target the one posing the greatest threat. I don't have enough readily accessable keys on my keyboard to make that an option with allies when Monking.

Moving with mouse is awesome. It means you can use QWERASDF for skills and 12345GTY for party members. Personally I like WASD, however, but I have a mouse with five extra buttons on it.

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Not to be contrary here... but my lungs don't know what my liver is doing... and my heart pays very little heed to my pancreas. Teamwork needn't involve mutual awareness when everyone is doing a very specific job. When it comes down to it... I'd rather be 100% focused on one job than 50% focused on two separate tasks (not least because single-minded, obsessive focus on a single task is my forté).

Although specialization is what professions are made for, one has to be at least somewhat aware that there is a team, and if the team collapses, what you do individually hardly matters - unless you fulfill the goal by yourself, which is extremely unlikely.

When you talk of it in terms of...say...a project, although different people/groups do different parts of the project, they at least require basic communication between each other to make sure they're doing things right.

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More often than not... if it concerns PuGs... then other people dying is their own fault primarily. It only becomes my fault if they are being killed by something that I was supposed to have killed first.
When it comes to herohench, the blame is half split between A-Net (for making crappy AI) and myself (for not compensating for that crappiness).

My point is not about your own player skill, which is already mentioned above...but that of your teammates, AI or not. If they die and you don't see a visible detriment to your progress, I think you're playing with a very bad team as they do essentially nothing.

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Oh entirely... or even right to the far extreme. I strongly believe that the primary responsibility for keeping each team-member alive falls squarely on THAT team-member... and only secondarily on the Monks (or Rits / Paragons). The difference between a good party and a bad party becomes apparent VERY quickly if the monks are taken out of the picture (and when Mhenlo and Lina are the monks in question, that is relatively frequently).

While this (can be) true for lower end PvE as it is in RA, it is as true in high-end PvE as it is in GvG (i.e. not at all, unless you're made for survivability). With the increasing power levels when one ventures to higher levels of PvE, it becomes less and less feasible for the single player to pack self-sustenence, while doing their job appropriately.

Of course, not kiting, standing in DoT-AoE, and such retarded player antics are not the monk's fault.

In fact, it's downright unreasonable, when you consider that a well-played Monk can keep the party alive with half a bar in PvE. Might as well let the other players do their jobs well.

However, with such specialization, there are blind spots introduced to each slot of the team; therefore you need to rely on your team members.

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Some skills (such as Lightning Surge, as I suggested) have very recognisable casting sounds / graphic effects so you can tell if some protection is needed. If you see the Blinding Flash graphic on your warrior, time for a Dismiss Condition. Watching the battlefield in this way should lead to faster response times by you and less spamming of "I have blind on me!" by warriors etc.. Clearly you can't read a monster's mind, but with a little practice, you'll see they are reasonably predictable.

I can only really see what a Monster is doing if I have them targetted.
I have to admit that when it comes to casting animations... the only ones I recognise are generally Elementalist AoE effects like Firestorm, Meteor Shower and Churning Earth... and it certainly isn't an option when we're dealing with insta-smash skills like Mind Blast. Heck... I have difficulty knowing when Spirit Rift is being cast on me even (and it has a very telltale graphic)!
I certainly don't have the ability to intercept things at a moment's notice. I am dyspraxic and my reflexes are unfortunately terrible. I might be able to move herohench out of an AoE zone (usually by moving myself) that is already there, but I couldn't set Prot on them before it even hit. At least I know if I'm targeting an enemy that is focused on me and I see them start to cast an AoE spell, that I should momentarily run out of the way of the rest of my party.

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Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Look who they face, tht's the easiest way. Again party positioning is key here again because if there are 5 people balled up it's hard to save them from incoming AoE. If you have the idea someone MIGHT be targeted in the future you can choose to already precast a prot spirit (for instance on a warrior that runs in first).

A minimap with 3 red dots converging on 1 friendly one might give you an idea as well.

I guess Pre-Casting is the only option. I certainly can't tell who an Ooze is facing when I have enough difficulty knowing who a Yeti is sweeping his palms at. I don't have the time to be sitting there drawing tangent lines on the screen to work out who each enemy is facing.
I'm thinking this is getting to be too many things to concentrate on... It is easier with PuGs than with herohench because the former tend to have distinct behaviour patterns that can be learned very quickly, while the latter work on so many variables that they can act really bizarrely sometimes (Mhenlo's tendency to charge to the frontlines, for instance).

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qft, not kiting, standing in AoE and whatnot aren't the monks responsibility. Of course any reasonable monk will try to do his best anyways but that just proves the monk l33tness and the player's suckness.

It's all easier said then done of course, I struggle with it sometimes too, monk is not the only profession that requires pro-active play (think warrior with bull's strike here) but practice makes perfect

. In the end pro-active play gets you farther then reactive play no matter what you play.

I'd imagine practice is the whole of it.
Practicing Monking in PvP would probably help me a great deal... especially if I had someone to teach me how to do it....
But then I doubt any of that would rightfully prepare me for trying to lead a herohench party AS the backliner.

It is worth noting though... herohench arrange themselves differently around you if you have a Staff equipped to if you have a Melee weapon. Interesting fact.

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Oh and always bring +20% enchant duration gear

100% truth.
Pity the green Healing staves don't tend to have 20% extra duration. I usually stick with the Stoneweaver, irrespective of whether running Healing, Prot or Hybrid. I have a special Defensive Shadow Staff of Deathbane for Smiting though.

Cebe · Oct 30, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I can only really see what a Monster is doing if I have them targetted.
I have to admit that when it comes to casting animations... the only ones I recognise are generally Elementalist AoE effects like Firestorm, Meteor Shower and Churning Earth... and it certainly isn't an option when we're dealing with insta-smash skills like Mind Blast. Heck... I have difficulty knowing when Spirit Rift is being cast on me even (and it has a very telltale graphic)!
I certainly don't have the ability to intercept things at a moment's notice. I am dyspraxic and my reflexes are unfortunately terrible. I might be able to move herohench out of an AoE zone (usually by moving myself) that is already there, but I couldn't set Prot on them before it even hit. At least I know if I'm targeting an enemy that is focused on me and I see them start to cast an AoE spell, that I should momentarily run out of the way of the rest of my party.

Granted, a lot of skills you can't often tell who they're targetting or when they're going to cast. You mention Spirit Rift - if it gets cast on you, you have 3 seconds to move to the side. If it gets cast on an ally, and they clearly aren't going to move, just Reversal of Fortune them...threat neutralised. Yes, I guess some reflexes are needed and if you've got bad response times...I dunno what you can do to improve other than practice.

As for skills like Mind Blast, as you mention, you often have no idea who is being targetted until they take damage...it's not possibly to pre-protect everyone against everything, but if I spot someone taking damage, I use Reversal of Fortune as a primary response, that gives me a second or two to decide on a more appropriate course of action.

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Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I have a special Defensive Shadow Staff of Deathbane for Smiting though.

The deathbane mod only triggers on the 11-22 wanding damage you know... It's not worth using on a staff over a +30HP or +20% enchantments.

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Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Practicing Monking in PvP would probably help me a great deal... especially if I had someone to teach me how to do it....
But then I doubt any of that would rightfully prepare me for trying to lead a herohench party AS the backliner.

Monking in PvP helped me improve a lot. I still find leading a hero-hench party difficult without being offensive though.

If Protecting really isn't your thing, or you think you wouldn't be able to do it well, and you don't want to smite, perhaps a Hybrid would be best. Something involving Protective Spirit, Aegis, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Signet of Rejuvenation, Light of Deliverance, Dwayna's Kiss, Dismiss Condition. That way you have "watch-the-red-bar" heals along with protection skills which require no sudden reflexes. Win-win?

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

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Originally Posted by LightningHell

There's your answer. You prefer to play more defensively, instead of maxing out the optimal possible damage. That's probably why people don't die.

Generally... they don't. Deaths become more prevalent the more offensive power I sub into the party in place of defensive... both on my side and the enemy's... though the enemy are many in number and my party get Death Penalty. Defensive always seems best therefore.

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What if a monk is dead?

The other monk or the Paragon or the MM... as applicable... resurrects. Olias loved spamming resurrects when I had him N/Mo... but sometimes I have him N/Me for the Virulence + Epidemic MM build... so no option.
Last I checked the henchies have Res Sigs as well... though I pay less attention to them than my Heroes.

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What if a monk and a midline defensive character is dead?

There are usually one or two resurrects left in the party. The rest of the party just minds their own business and continues their job with a little more urgency.

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What if you're encountering some of the above, and two of your allies (perhaps including yourself) is having their ass handed back to them?

If the odds are against us... we run. A few might die in the retreat as well. If none of those who escaped has Rebirth... then generally the only option is to wipe and use a shrine.
In any case... a wipe in a mission generally calls for changes to the team build to compensate for the weakness that caused the wipe. In general explorable PvE... it tends not to be so important provided the wipe is an accidental one-off.

So... is this wrong of me?

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However, you can still see...for example, using a previous example, if a character has four melee characters on him, it's probably best to use Guardian/Spirit Bond/SoA, and not cast something else. However, if you see an Elementalist or two wrecking them, putting Guardian might not be the best idea. You can also anticipate attacks, although this applies a lot less to PvE. Also, such damage patterns are recognizable enough in PvE, so one can argue that you don't necessarily need to watch the field to play properly - however, it greatly enhances ones ability to prot properly.

While I understand the bit about using the right skills for the circumstances.... how easy this is depends on how biased the enemy group are. As I'm sure you're aware, PvE mobs tend to be imbalanced in their set-up.... often constituting a single gimmick set-up. There are melee-heavy groups and spell-heavy groups, huge mobs of weak enemies and small groups of tough bastards. It is rather the more balanced groups that make it more difficult to predict what spell goes where... and that gets awkward for me.

As for anticipation... the closest I get to that is simply being familiar with the habits of particular enemies... such as knowing not to start casting a spell when I've just come into aggro range of a Dredge Gutter, as the bastard WILL teleport to me and interrupt it. It only stems to a personal level though. No amount of familiarity with enemies is enough for me to keep track of the entire battle at once. I just cannot manage that level of multi-tasking.

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Moving with mouse is awesome. It means you can use QWERASDF for skills and 12345GTY for party members. Personally I like WASD, however, but I have a mouse with five extra buttons on it.

Lucky you.
I move with W and Mouselook generally... though some measure of Q, E, ASD are used as well. I could probably re-assign R to something else... and I've tried reassigning the left Shift key, but I ended up accidentally leaning on it and messing things up viciously.
I wish I had a nice super-buttoned mouse.

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Although specialization is what professions are made for, one has to be at least somewhat aware that there is a team, and if the team collapses, what you do individually hardly matters - unless you fulfill the goal by yourself, which is extremely unlikely.

I'm not sure of the context in which you speak. I do my job; other members of the team do theirs. We trust that the rest of the team is doing their job properly. If the aggro against me increases suddenly, I know it is that other members are failing and it is time to pull a retreat.
And for what it is worth... sometimes I can do things alone, depending on my character. My Assassin at least can solo Jotuns one-on-one... or even two-on-one (him being the one) without difficulty. My Elementalist was able to take down a group of plants in Sebhorin single-handedly before the rest of the party caught up with him... and he is just a Water Ele.

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When you talk of it in terms of...say...a project, although different people/groups do different parts of the project, they at least require basic communication between each other to make sure they're doing things right.

Fair enough. People ping things in PuGs... and Herohench can be flagged (or even re-ordered to use certain skills)...
Herohench tend to have limits to how they can react to things though, and PuGs often don't cooperate. It is troublesome... but sometimes it means that the only way of doing things is to mind one's own business.

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My point is not about your own player skill, which is already mentioned above...but that of your teammates, AI or not. If they die and you don't see a visible detriment to your progress, I think you're playing with a very bad team as they do essentially nothing.

I notice when I'm left alone or with one other person. I can have my group reduced by three members and it barely scratches our progress at all though.

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While this (can be) true for lower end PvE as it is in RA, it is as true in high-end PvE as it is in GvG (i.e. not at all, unless you're made for survivability). With the increasing power levels when one ventures to higher levels of PvE, it becomes less and less feasible for the single player to pack self-sustenence, while doing their job appropriately.

Of course, not kiting, standing in DoT-AoE, and such retarded player antics are not the monk's fault.

In fact, it's downright unreasonable, when you consider that a well-played Monk can keep the party alive with half a bar in PvE. Might as well let the other players do their jobs well.

However, with such specialization, there are blind spots introduced to each slot of the team; therefore you need to rely on your team members.

Can't argue with that... though I haven't come across anything yet to convince me to drop self-heals from my characters' skillbars. I'll often go secondary Assassin on many chars for Shadow Sanctuary (a nifty self-heal)... besides Dash (I <3 speed boosts).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

The deathbane mod only triggers on the 11-22 wanding damage you know... It's not worth using on a staff over a +30HP or +20% enchantments.

My primary monk build at the moment is a customised version of the Mo/Me Signet Smiter... I have Mantra of Incantations at one end, Rebirth at the other end and six signets inbetween (Judgement, Rage, Bane, Castigation, Leech, Distraction). The enchantments mod would be wasted there... and it lets me wand Undead to death... amusingly enough. I'm not prone to customising staves, but I made an exception there. I almost wish it was 15^50 rather than 10% faster spell casting.
If need be, I have another good smiting staff with better mods against other things.

Random thought: The Signet Smiter build did a number of the Fragment of Antiquities yesterday. It was quite funny to watch actually. I'm getting better at interrupting, despite not having a Mesmer primary.
I am considering trying Signet of Disenchantment or Humility instead of Distraction at some point though.

LightningHell · Oct 31, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Generally... they don't. Deaths become more prevalent the more offensive power I sub into the party in place of defensive... both on my side and the enemy's... though the enemy are many in number and my party get Death Penalty. Defensive always seems best therefore.

This is where we differ in opinion. In my opinion it is always best to optimize and stretch your offense and leave minimal, survivable defense in order to decimate PvE in the fastest time possible.

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The other monk or the Paragon or the MM... as applicable... resurrects. Olias loved spamming resurrects when I had him N/Mo... but sometimes I have him N/Me for the Virulence + Epidemic MM build... so no option.
Last I checked the henchies have Res Sigs as well... though I pay less attention to them than my Heroes.

There are usually one or two resurrects left in the party. The rest of the party just minds their own business and continues their job with a little more urgency.

And therefore, they res, not the Monk.

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If the odds are against us... we run. A few might die in the retreat as well. If none of those who escaped has Rebirth... then generally the only option is to wipe and use a shrine.
In any case... a wipe in a mission generally calls for changes to the team build to compensate for the weakness that caused the wipe. In general explorable PvE... it tends not to be so important provided the wipe is an accidental one-off.

So... is this wrong of me?

No, not really.

However, I rarely do have experience of wiping.

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While I understand the bit about using the right skills for the circumstances.... how easy this is depends on how biased the enemy group are. As I'm sure you're aware, PvE mobs tend to be imbalanced in their set-up.... often constituting a single gimmick set-up. There are melee-heavy groups and spell-heavy groups, huge mobs of weak enemies and small groups of tough bastards. It is rather the more balanced groups that make it more difficult to predict what spell goes where... and that gets awkward for me.

Generally, in PvE it matters much less whether you watch the battlefield or not, as it is a pretty forgiving environment. But you do need some common sense, i.e. slap Prot Spirit on a guy when he's getting pummeled by a HM ele boss.

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As for anticipation... the closest I get to that is simply being familiar with the habits of particular enemies... such as knowing not to start casting a spell when I've just come into aggro range of a Dredge Gutter, as the bastard WILL teleport to me and interrupt it. It only stems to a personal level though. No amount of familiarity with enemies is enough for me to keep track of the entire battle at once. I just cannot manage that level of multi-tasking.

As said above, it matters much less in PvE. However, in PvP, you do need to keep track of such - you probably'll also have communication aids like Ventrilo and such - and odds are it'll be somewhat easier to keep track of 16 people with tagged names and numbers than it is a horde of monsters.

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Lucky you.

I feel lucky.

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I move with W and Mouselook generally... though some measure of Q, E, ASD are used as well. I could probably re-assign R to something else... and I've tried reassigning the left Shift key, but I ended up accidentally leaning on it and messing things up viciously.
I wish I had a nice super-buttoned mouse.

Mousing while moving also allows one to maximize movement advantage, and as such is preferred. WASD is easier though, imo. Mousing for moving also frees up WASD, which as said before gives you really nice keyboard setups for ally selection/skill selection.

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I'm not sure of the context in which you speak. I do my job; other members of the team do theirs. We trust that the rest of the team is doing their job properly. If the aggro against me increases suddenly, I know it is that other members are failing and it is time to pull a retreat.
And for what it is worth... sometimes I can do things alone, depending on my character. My Assassin at least can solo Jotuns one-on-one... or even two-on-one (him being the one) without difficulty. My Elementalist was able to take down a group of plants in Sebhorin single-handedly before the rest of the party caught up with him... and he is just a Water Ele.

This references your single-mindedness. You need to try to get rid of that, as it will make you literally inflexible in playing.

It kinda hardly matters as an Assassin, though, unless the whole backline is dead.

[QUOTEI notice when I'm left alone or with one other person. I can have my group reduced by three members and it barely scratches our progress at all though.[/QUOTE]

That is what I mean by excess party members. Why bring them when they accomplish absolutely nothing?

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Can't argue with that... though I haven't come across anything yet to convince me to drop self-heals from my characters' skillbars. I'll often go secondary Assassin on many chars for Shadow Sanctuary (a nifty self-heal)... besides Dash (I <3 speed boosts).

Return is win. Also, while I agree in that basic defensive manuevering is each player's responsibility, self-heals are oftentimes pointless, as you don't split in PvE all that much. Generally speaking (in a damage dealing point of view), 1) PvE mobs have a predictable damage pattern, and therefore is an easily neutralized threat; 2) If it is such an easily neutralized threat, then your backline should be able to cope with ease; 3) and you bringing a self-heal detriments from you doing damage, or such, so...why bring a self heal unless your monks absolutely suck balls?[/QUOTE]

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My primary monk build at the moment is a customised version of the Mo/Me Signet Smiter... I have Mantra of Incantations at one end, Rebirth at the other end and six signets inbetween (Judgement, Rage, Bane, Castigation, Leech, Distraction). The enchantments mod would be wasted there... and it lets me wand Undead to death... amusingly enough. I'm not prone to customising staves, but I made an exception there. I almost wish it was 15^50 rather than 10% faster spell casting.
If need be, I have another good smiting staff with better mods against other things.

Random thought: The Signet Smiter build did a number of the Fragment of Antiquities yesterday. It was quite funny to watch actually. I'm getting better at interrupting, despite not having a Mesmer primary.
I am considering trying Signet of Disenchantment or Humility instead of Distraction at some point though.

Smiting monks are midline, not backline. Bringing a hard res on them is absolutely fine.

moriz · Oct 31, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

generally, monks watch the battlefield more than the party window. in high level gvg, monks watch the battlefield about 75% of the time, and only watch the party bar to see if it's time to hit the LoD button. while you can get away with just staring at the party bar and push the red bars up in pve, the principles of gvg monking can be carried over into pve with great results.

unfortunately, playing a monk (the non-smiter variety) does depend a little on how good your computer is. if your computer cannot maintain at least 20 fps, monking is an absolute nightmare, since all you'll be seeing is people jumping around the map due to the poor framerates. the same goes for interrupting too. after getting my new laptop, i suddenly gained the ability to interrupt 1 second casts on reflex alone, something i couldn't do on my old desktop.