Curse

AlienFromBeyond · Oct 24, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Can't use Critical Agility in PvP so discussion is moot?

SotiCoto · Oct 24, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

PvP doesn't have Drunken Master nor Critical Agility mr Yan.... so that isn't relevant here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it?

Drunken Master is a Stance... right?
More Ench-Strips than Stance-Strips out there.

Besides.... Apply Booze, use Dwarven Stability THEN Drunken Master.... and you have several minutes of drunken rampaging without it being readily removable.... and without it wearing off due to lack of criticals.

To be honest though, I'd STILL sooner use Critical Agility. I just don't carry around enough booze with me to make Drunken Master on a regular basis a worthwhile thing.
Drunken Master with Illusionary Weaponry however = Sex.

Symbol · Oct 24, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

This is just flat out wrong.

Attack skills cancel normal attacks, so there's nothing preventing you from doing MS + DB every 2.4455 seconds under 33% IAS.

Under 15% IAS that goes up to 2.56525 seconds.

More IAS is never worse.

BTW recharge for attack skills is listed recharge + (length of attack animation)/2, since the skill only starts recharging after you connect (which is halfway through the animation).

Jaigoda · Oct 24, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

1.33 - 15% = 1.1305
1.33 - 33% = 0.8778

15% IAS
0 seconds: Activate MS
1.1305 seconds: Activate DB
2.261 seconds: Activate MS
3.3915 seconds: Activate DB
And so on

33% IAS:
0 seconds: Activate MS
0.8778 seconds: Activate DB
1.7556 seconds: MS recharging, autoattack
2.6334 seconds: Activate MS
3.5112 seconds: Activate DB
4.389 seconds: MS recharging, autoattack
And so on

Do you understand now? It takes 4.389 seconds to do 2 loops with 33% IAS, while it takes only 3.3915 seconds to do 2 loops with a 15% IAS. The 33% IAS does get 2 extra autoattacks, but everyone knows that assassin daggers hit for next to nothing. And I'm not actually saying that Drunken Master is better, I'm asking whether you people think it would do more damage than a 33% IAS. The only reason why I'm argueing is because I don't think you understand my math. Maybe I'm wrong and I've got the game mechanics messed up, but I don't think so. I've been working with attack speeds, especially with Moebius Blossom, for a long while now. If you'd post how exactly you got those numbers, I would appreciate it.

Sqube · Oct 24, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

At this point, I think the simplest solution would be empirical. I'm at work, so I won't be able to do this anytime soon, but go beat on the Master of Damage for a while with Drunken Master. Do the same thing with Critical Agility. Then see which one nets you more damage. That would be the more efficient one.

Jaigoda · Oct 24, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Unfortunately, I can't test it until I get EotN, so make sure you take some screenies for me.

FlamingMetroid · Oct 24, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Unfortunately, I can't test it until I get EotN, so make sure you take some screenies for me.

you're making speculations on a skill in a game you dont even have why?

Symbol · Oct 24, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Do you understand now? It takes 4.389 seconds to do 2 loops with 33% IAS, while it takes only 3.3915 seconds to do 2 loops with a 15% IAS. The 33% IAS does get 2 extra autoattacks, but everyone knows that assassin daggers hit for next to nothing. And I'm not actually saying that Drunken Master is better, I'm asking whether you people think it would do more damage than a 33% IAS. The only reason why I'm argueing is because I don't think you understand my math. Maybe I'm wrong and I've got the game mechanics messed up, but I don't think so. I've been working with attack speeds, especially with Moebius Blossom, for a long while now. If you'd post how exactly you got those numbers, I would appreciate it.

Your math is wrong.

Moebius strike takes 2 + 1.1305/2 = 2.5625 seconds to recharge under 15% IAS, from the moment you hit the key to the moment it becomes available again.

Under 33% IAS there's nothing preventing you from canceling the autoattack and mashing the MS button as soon as it lights up. The recycle would be 2 + .8911/2 = 2.4455 seconds in that case. Of course if you don't want to bother you still get 1 MS + 1 DB + 1 autoattack every 2.6733 seconds, which is almost certainly going to be better than 15% IAS damage-wise.

More IAS is better, period. In this case it doesn't matter much either way, since your DPS is limited mostly by skill recharge, but that doesn't change the facts.

Yanman.be · Oct 24, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Yeah, ok my point is moot in this thread....but the statement is true!

SotiCoto · Oct 25, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

1.33 - 15% = 1.1305
1.33 - 33% = 0.8778..... etc.

Moebius and Death Blossom take the same amount of time to recharge either way.
The extra attack with 33% IAS doesn't interfere with the time taken to activate the skills... so it is basically a free attack with no extra time required. It might only be a measly 10 damage or something, but it is a freebie... and will get an extra point of energy with Zealous daggers (or more if Critical) / extra health with Vampiric daggers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Yeah, ok my point is moot in this thread....but the statement is true!

Yes Yan. You are correct. You are totally and utterly right about something totally and utterly irrelevant.
Happy now?

Yanman.be · Oct 25, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Irrelevant to this thread.

SotiCoto · Oct 25, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Irrelevant to this thread.

YES Yan... irrelevant to this thread.
Perfectly relevant to PvP.... and to things not involving PvE-exclusive skills....
But irrelevant to this thread.
But you're still right.

Now here is your trophy:

Jaigoda · Oct 25, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Moebius and Death Blossom take the same amount of time to recharge either way.
The extra attack with 33% IAS doesn't interfere with the time taken to activate the skills... so it is basically a free attack with no extra time required. It might only be a measly 10 damage or something, but it is a freebie... and will get an extra point of energy with Zealous daggers (or more if Critical) / extra health with Vampiric daggers.

I'm not talking about the recharge, I'm talking about attack speeds. Moebius starts RECHARGING at 0 seconds; a 2 second timer begins. at .8778 seconds you pop off a Death Blossom. at 1.7556 seconds, Moebius is still not recharged, so your character just does an autoattack instead. The next point where you attack is at 2.6334 seconds, which is when you would next hit with Moebius, or, the restart of the timer. Therefore, it takes 2.6334 seconds to go through one loop.

Now, for the 15% IAS, the attack speed is one attack per 1.1305 seconds. So, start Moebius at 0 seconds. at 1.1305 seconds, you use DB. Then, you use Moebius again at 2.261 seconds, since it recharged at 2 seconds. So basically, a loop of Moebius and Death Blossom takes 2.6334 seconds for a 33% IAS, with an autoattack included, while it only takes 2.261 seconds for a 15% IAS, no autoattacks. Therefore, it takes less time to complete and continue a Moebius chain with a 15% IAS than it does with a 33% IAS.

Yanman.be · Oct 25, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Make a video.

*edit*

Just did some testing... My drunken master is at 12%.

Master of damage clearly showed less damage @ 12% vs Critical aglity @ 33%.

Testing with serpent's quickness showed a rather nice increase of 5 to 10%.

Coloneh · Oct 25, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

no. you just dont get it. faster attack speed = faster attacking. how do you not get that? im easily one of the most simple concepts in the game.

please stop arguing this topic if your not going to make a video or show some real calculations.

Jaigoda · Oct 25, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I don't have EotN to test Drunken Master. And I'm not saying you attack slower with a 33% IAS, I'm saying you do the MBlossom loop slower than you would with a 15% IAS. Is it really that hard to understand? Due to Moebius Strike's recharge, you do an autoattack in the MBlossom loop (with 33%), which in turn make the loop take longer to restart. With a 15% IAS, you're slowed down just enough so that you can get in Moebius before an autoattack, which lets you start your combo again faster.

It's like if you have a 3-attack combo with no IAS and a 33% IAS. They're both going to get in about the same amount of attack skills in about the same amount of time because all offhand attacks have a recharge of 4 or more, which means that the 33% IAS may get in those attack skills faster, and have more autoattacks, but it won't do more attack skills than a non-IAS would, due solely to recharge.

Sqube · Oct 25, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

If you ignore autoattacks, Jaigoda, your point could very well be correct (I don't have Drunken Master to try it out, so this is a purely theoretical discussion).

However, for your point to be valid - that is, for a 15% IAS to be considered superior to a 33% IAS - you have to assume that when you're not using attack skills, you aren't doing anything at all. That assumption is erroneous. The 33% IAS allows you to do autoattacks that you wouldn't have the time for if you were only using a 15% IAS.

So, to recap: from a purely theoretical standpoint, ignoring autoattacks, you could be right. However, in the gameworld, where you will be doing autoattacks that don't have a negative effect on the amount of times that you use, I'm pretty sure a 33% IAS will always work better.

Jaigoda · Oct 25, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Yes, that was basically my point: Faster loops, or an extra autoattack? I wanted people's opinions on which they would prefer. Like you said in another post, the autoattacks also give you benefits from vampiric and zealous weapons, as well as damage buffs (though I mentioned that before). But I'm glad that you understand it now, I was afraid I had somehow made a fatal mistake in my math.

SotiCoto · Oct 26, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

I'm not talking about the recharge, I'm talking about attack speeds. Moebius starts RECHARGING at 0 seconds; a 2 second timer begins. at .8778 seconds you pop off a Death Blossom. at 1.7556 seconds, Moebius is still not recharged, so your character just does an autoattack instead. The next point where you attack is at 2.6334 seconds, which is when you would next hit with Moebius, or, the restart of the timer. Therefore, it takes 2.6334 seconds to go through one loop.

Now, for the 15% IAS, the attack speed is one attack per 1.1305 seconds. So, start Moebius at 0 seconds. at 1.1305 seconds, you use DB. Then, you use Moebius again at 2.261 seconds, since it recharged at 2 seconds. So basically, a loop of Moebius and Death Blossom takes 2.6334 seconds for a 33% IAS, with an autoattack included, while it only takes 2.261 seconds for a 15% IAS, no autoattacks. Therefore, it takes less time to complete and continue a Moebius chain with a 15% IAS than it does with a 33% IAS.

-_-;
Let us try this again....
IAS does not influence skill recharge. It will however influence how long it takes to ACTIVATE an attack skill... thus an attack will be done and the next one usable faster.
Naturally... faster IAS in this case means you can chain off the attack skills faster too.
And since it doesn't influence the recharge... this means a slightly longer gap while waiting for them... into which an AutoAttack can easily be slotted.

As such... the comparisons end up rather like this (total time being Moebius recharge):

00% : MS------DB--
15% : MS----DB----
33% : MS--DB--A--

Under 15% IAS... the time to execute Moebius Strike is longer, and thus Death Blossom cannot be triggered so quickly... and likewise takes longer to trigger itself, taking up the remainder of Moebius Strike's recharge time.
Under 33% IAS... the time to execute Moebius Strike and Death Blossom are less, meaning DB can be used sooner and likewise ends sooner, leaving more of a gap after, during which an auto-attack can be used. Furthermore, even if the autoattack is a micron of a moment late (unlikely, being an automated process), Moebius Strike can still cut in immediately upon recharge so no time is lost (autoattacks don't use dedicated time). The loops are exactly the same length either way.

It is all quite elementary really.

Do you understand yet?

Yanman.be · Oct 26, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

I HAVE DRUNKEN MASTER AND YOU DO NOT LOOP FASTER OK. YOU DO NOT GET MORE MS/DB PER MINUTE IF YOU USE 15% IAS vs 33%. MORE LIKE THE OTHER WAY AROUND.