Curse

Jaigoda · Oct 23, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I was looking at the Deldrimor skills, and noticed that Drunken Master (while not drunk) gives a 10-15% IAS. At 10%, your attack rate is one attack per 1.197 seconds, two attacks per 2.394 seconds. At 15%, it's 1.1305 (twice per 2.261). This means you can do a Moebius Blossom loop at the maximum speed (until a 20% AIS comes out) without ever doing an autoattack; it's actually faster than Critical Agility! The only thing is, CA provides that ever-important AL boost to us supposedly squishy Assassins (I'll have to post about that soon). So it's between more armor or faster damage. What's everyone's opinions on this, and have many people been using Drunken Master on their MBlossom's before?

Abedeus · Oct 23, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

So... you mean that 10-15% > 33%? What the hell do you have from math? C-? No, I would think that B- is more realistic...
For assassin, Critical Agility is much better than any other IAS.

Jaigoda · Oct 23, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

For your information, I get straight A's in math, and I'm two grades ahead of my age. So yeah. What I meant is, a 33% attack boost doesn't help MBlossom all that much. A regular MBlossom loop without an IAS is 2.66 seconds. An MBlossom loop with 33% IAS is 2.6733 seconds, with an extra autoattack in there. An Mblossom loop with a 15% IAS, however, takes only 2.261 seconds, with no extra autoattack. This way, you optimize the speed of the loop. The only reason take take CA for the IAS is if you want that extra autoattack for buff/adren-related reasons.

zknifeh · Oct 23, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

so you are saying that u would rather have 15% ias so in the 2.6 seconds you can hit db+moebious in order for them to recharge one right after another thus landing 3 hits
and you like that over the db+moebious + 0.5 secs to land an extra hit with your dagger which would do more damage?

here is a thought! take serpants quickness... both skills will recharge in 1 second and you will be surprised by the spam!

Jaigoda · Oct 23, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

You've got it all wrong. Drunken Master would let you hit 2 attacks (Moebius and Death Blossom) in 2.261 seconds, while a 33% attack boost like CA will do 3 attacks (Moebius, Death Blossom and an unneeded autoattack) in 2.6733 seconds. And using Serpent's Quickness is a horrible. You'd have to invest at LEAST 9 points in wilderness for it to be effective, meaning you won't be able to spec into Shadow Arts, and even then it'll have about a 20 second downtime. And I have not actually tested Drunken Master, I'm just getting people's opinions on whether they'd prefer it over a 33% IAS. And in the long run, I think that DM would do more damage, as you can use MBlossom faster, and also, dagger attacks hit for next to nothing if they don't have a buff like Conjure [element] or Order of Pain/the Vampire.

Yanman.be · Oct 23, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooze

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 23, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooze

That works also.

Sqube · Oct 23, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

You seem to be operating under the assumption that extra damage is somehow bad because it makes your MS+DB chain... less efficient? I'm not sure.

You yourself have demonstrated that the time difference is negligible. I'm having a hard time understanding why you would prefer not to have an extra attack in there.

In the time it takes you to do DB+MS, I can do DB+MS+autoattack. Over time, consider the extra damage. Consider the increased likelihood for criticals. Consider the +armor.

I understand where you were coming from with your idea, but you seem to be posting from the viewpoint of maximizing damage. If I can do three attacks in the amount of time it takes you to do two, I'm being more efficient even if that extra attack only does one point of damage.

Interesting observation though.

Jaigoda · Oct 23, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I definitely respect your opinion, Sqube. I just thought that if you could string loops faster (every ~2.25 compared to ~2.7) you would do more damage than you would with the extra autoattack. I'll calculate it a little later and see which one actually does more damage (I'm probably still going to use CA for the armor boost).

EDIT:
You'll probably do more damage against a high-AL foe, as since +damage is armor ignoring, but against casters and such, CA will probably come out on top. That's my guess, at least.

Coloneh · Oct 23, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it?

jaeharys targaryen · Oct 23, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

So... you mean that 10-15% > 33%? What the hell do you have from math? C-? No, I would think that B- is more realistic...
For assassin, Critical Agility is much better than any other IAS.

Considering the state of schools these days(getting perfect scores on tests you took high), he probably has atleast a B.

Bobby2 · Oct 23, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

what calculations? with crit agility you get the same number of attack skills in PLUS an auto attack PLUS armor. why the hell would you even consider drunken master over it?

Right!

Sqube · Oct 23, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Jaigoda, check out the below. Consider each dash to indicate the passing of X amount of time.
DB = Death Blossom
MS = Moebius Strike
A = Autoattack

1. Drunken Master (15% IAS) With the 15% IAS, they hit without enough time for an autoattack so you can constantly chain them.

2. Critical Agility (33% IAS) The 33% IAS attacks so much faster that you do an autoattack between MS-DB loops.

1. MS --- DB --- MS --- DB --- MS --- DB
2. MS --- DB -A- MS --- DB -A- MS --- DB

The extra A occurs in the same amount of time (as I hope my use of Courier New makes clear). While I haven't been to the Isle of the Nameless to try this out, it seems to me that being able to do three amount of attacks (even if it's an autoattack) in the amount of time it takes you to do two means that I'll get more damage in over time, even allowing for the vagaries of attack animations. Then there's the possibility for critical strikes, double strikes... it's just always better to get as many attacks into a given time frame as possible.

Jaigoda · Oct 24, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

But you see, it takes LESS amount of time to do a loop with DM, not the same amount of time. Like I've said twice before, you complete TWO attacks in 2.261 seconds, while you complete THREE attacks in 2.6733 seconds. You effectively shave off ~.4 seconds per loop. This means you can do more MBlossoms in a smaller amount of time. Does this make sense? Here, try this (note, it's not exactly accurate, but you get the jist):

1. MS -- DB --- MS -- DB --- MS -- DB --- MS -- DB
2. MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB -- AA -- MS -- DB

There's the same amount of MBlossoms, but the 15% IAS completes it faster than the 33% IAS, though the 33% IAS gets a few autoattacks. Put simply, you get more DB's and MS's in with the same amount of time, but sacrifice a few autoattacks.

Coloneh · Oct 24, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

that dosnt make any sense. your not waiting on auto-attacks. of course you would cancel an auto-attack if you have a skill available, but you dont need to with 33% ias, the hits get through even when spamming DB/MS on recharge.

Sqube · Oct 24, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Coloneh beat me to the punch, but what you put down simply isn't accurate. It's not like you're doing an auto-attack instead of restarting the DB+MS chain.

The auto-attack occurs because both skills are recharging and your attack speed is just that damn fast. I see what you wrote, but it's not actually accurate. You put an extra - in there for the Critical Agility version, and that's simply not accurate.

Jaigoda · Oct 24, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Edited it to show more accuracy. But what I'm trying to get at is that it takes more time to do MS + DB + Autoattack at 33% IAS (this is what you are forced to do because MS isn't recharged before the third hit) than it does to do MS + DM with a 15% IAS (MS recharges before the third hit, so there's no wasted time). You might get that extra autoattack, but it takes longer to do it.

EDIT: You do 4 MS+DB loops in 9.044 seconds with a 15% IAS, and 4 MS+DB+AA loops in 10.6932 seconds with a 33% IAS; AA=Autoattack.

Yanman.be · Oct 24, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Make a video.

odly · Oct 24, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Hmm, Normally things tend to die and then you have to start a new sequence anyway. What are you fighting that you cannot kill and need to optimise deathblossom cycles for ?

Yanman.be · Oct 24, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

PvP always needs optimum?