Curse

yesitsrob · Oct 24, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masseur

HB is always in my bar. Been playing for over 2 years and always get complements and people adding to friends when I Monk. I know when to use and not to use it in favor of actual "now" heals. There are far worse skills to bash like infuse health (lemme drop half my health and hope I don't get hit) or healing touch (lemme take some time to run over there and heal you).

Apparently you're a) horrible or b) being sarcastic. But it's not exactly clear over the internet

Chthon · Oct 24, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

So wait. People think Infuse is bad and Breeze is good now? Wow.

Infuse is bad. It's terribad even. It just gets used because the "good" healing prayers are all non-options.

Let's take a look at why Infuse is bad:
First, it doesn't really heal. Real heals create hp out of thin air. Infuse just moves hp around. So you still have to heal the deficit after you Infuse. The hp that Infuse does create out of thin air is overpriced compared to the rest of healing prayers. Even at 600hp and 16 healing prayers, you're spending 10e for 114 hp + DF bonus. Two 5ers like ethereal light/healing whisper are going to beat that out for the same reason two orisons beat out breeze -- double DF. In short, Infuse is energy inefficient as a straight heal.
Second, Infuse is risky. Sacrificing half your health makes you dangerously easy to kill until you get around to healing the health deficit you transferred to yourself.

Now, why does Infuse see so much play in PvP if it sucks? Two reasons:
First, it's a 1/4 sec cast. The prevalence of spike tactics has killed the viability of 1 sec and 3/4 sec heals. Often the target is dead before the heal arrives. Even 1/2 sec heals manufactured with HBoon/Holy Haste don't save people from spikes very well. That leaves you with 1/4 sec options. There's only two: Infuse and Glimmer. Glimmer is awful. Infuse is all that's left. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Second, the risk inherent in Infuse is largely negated by the Reverse Pigeonhole Principle in PvP. The opposing party only gets 4/8/12 players. So you know that if X of them are purely defensive, and Y of them are attacking the person you're infusing, and X + Y = 4/8/12, then there are zero remaining to try to capitalize on your suddenly low hp.

It's a different story in PvE. (And Masseur was clearly talking about PvE.) Both of the things that make Infuse see play in PvP are absent in PvE.
First, monsters don't spike. Throughout the vast majority of the PvE world, you've got ample time to heal reactively with 1 sec casts. That means that all of those slower, much more energy efficient straight heals are viable options again. And most of them look a lot better than Infuse.
Second, the monsters outnumber you, often badly. Absent aggro management, there's almost always enough monsters around for at least one to be available at any given moment to capitalize on your suddenly low health. Infusing under any circumstances other than controlled tank/nuke/monk aggro is going to expose you to a lot of risk.

In sum:
For purposes of PvP, Infuse is the only viable option for straight healing because the rest are too slow to deal with spike tactics. It sucks, but you live with it because there's no other choice.
For purposes of PvE, Infuse is up to 3/4 sec faster than other options, but at the cost of being less energy efficient and exposing you to huge risk. Under most PvE circumstances, it should not ever be used.

[edit: fixed arithmetic error.]

Grammar · Oct 24, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

^^^ holy s*** that was a good post.

I agree that Masseur was obviously talking in terms of normal mode PvE, which case I would agree with him that Infuse Health is terrible.
But I would way that Healing Breeze is just as bad in normal mode PvE as it is in PvP.

elektra_lucia · Oct 24, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

You don't need to put much in healing prayers for infuse to work, which is cool

. Infuse takes skill to use, which is nice. Rewarding

.

Mr Pink57 · Oct 26, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Even at 600hp and 16 healing prayers, you're spending 10e for 216hp + DF bonus. Two 5ers like ethereal light/healing whisper are going to beat that out for the same reason two orisons beat out breeze -- double DF. In short, Infuse is energy inefficient as a straight heal.
Second, Infuse is risky. Sacrificing half your health makes you dangerously easy to kill until you get around to healing the health deficit you transferred to yourself.

At 16 healing and at 600 health (dont know how that is possible really) a infuse would give about 414 + DF at 10e. I find this to be a good thing, the only other way to achieve a heal like this would be Healers Boon + ELight/DKiss. Infuse was never meant to be spammed, this would pretty much ruin its effecitivness anyways.

pink

elektra_lucia · Oct 26, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

You should not use 16 healing on infuse though o.0.

Mr Pink57 · Oct 26, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

You should not use 16 healing on infuse though o.0.

I will agree with you there. I run my monk in pve like a pvp kinda (survivors and minors). I just prefer to be run past by monsters vs being the first targeted on an arggo break ( arggo breaks happen to everyone I don't care who you are).

pink

Apoc · Oct 26, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

You should not use 16 healing on infuse though o.0.

I agree. Whenever I go as Infuser, I switch to my Survivor set and +1 HPrayers scalp.

I also take the Scar Eater for a nice +60HP.

Chthon · Oct 26, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

At 16 healing and at 600 health (dont know how that is possible really) a infuse would give about 414 + DF at 10e. I find this to be a good thing, the only other way to achieve a heal like this would be Healers Boon + ELight/DKiss. Infuse was never meant to be spammed, this would pretty much ruin its effecitivness anyways.

pink

1. AFAIK, 600hp and 16 healing prayers is impossible. I merely used it to demonstrate it's poor energy efficiency, even at very high parameters.

2. You failed to comprehend the point of my post, so let's try this again. "Healing" is creating hp out of thin air. That's what the rest of the healing prayers line does. For the most part, infuse does NOT heal. It merely moves health (and the corresponding health deficit) from one party member to another. After you infuse, you still have to do a real heal, because the health deficit is still there, just on someone else.
To spell out what Infuse does at (the impossible) 600hp and 16 healing prayers:

It moves 300 health from you to the target. (Not a heal.)
It heals the target for 38% of 300, or 114. (This is real healing, since it's hp from thin air.)
It heals the target for the DF bonus. (Again, a real heal of hp created ex vacuo.)

From a short-term tactical point of view, moving health around can be useful as a stopgap measure, particularly as a response to spike tactics. However, in the long-term competition to create health points faster than your opponents can destroy them moving hp around is worth absolutely zero. As for the hp that Infuse actually creates, it's about half as energy efficient as the rest of healing prayers. (Which leads into the point that Infuse sees play in PvP anyway because the rest of healing prayers are too slow to keep up with spike.)

JoeKnowMo · Oct 26, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

However, in the long-term competition to create health points faster than your opponents can destroy them moving hp around is worth absolutely zero.

I guess Angelic Bond got nerfed because it was worth absolutely zero.

Moving HP around is not bad as long as no one dies. Your life will regen at a decent rate after each battle anyway (and faster with a LoD monk and other heals thrown around).

Quote:

As for the hp that Infuse actually creates, it's about half as energy efficient as the rest of healing prayers. (Which leads into the point that Infuse sees play in PvP anyway because the rest of healing prayers are too slow to keep up with spike.)

Infuse is a life-saving skill if used correctly. However, it requires a skillful player as well as a competent team to be used effectively in PvE.

I'd much rather see Infuse on an allied monk's bar than Healing Breeze.

And this part from your earlier post seems self-contradictory:

Quote:

It's a different story in PvE. (And Masseur was clearly talking about PvE.) Both of the things that make Infuse see play in PvP are absent in PvE.
First, monsters don't spike. Throughout the vast majority of the PvE world, you've got ample time to heal reactively with 1 sec casts. That means that all of those slower, much more energy efficient straight heals are viable options again. And most of them look a lot better than Infuse.
Second, the monsters outnumber you, often badly. Absent aggro management, there's almost always enough monsters around for at least one to be available at any given moment to capitalize on your suddenly low health. Infusing under any circumstances other than controlled tank/nuke/monk aggro is going to expose you to a lot of risk.

If monsters don't spike, then you have time for an Infuse followed by a self-heal.

TheLichMonky · Oct 26, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masseur

HB is always in my bar. Been playing for over 2 years and always get complements and people adding to friends when I Monk. I know when to use and not to use it in favor of actual "now" heals. There are far worse skills to bash like infuse health (lemme drop half my health and hope I don't get hit) or healing touch (lemme take some time to run over there and heal you).

I loled Irl ...

Wakka · Oct 26, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Healing Breeze should only be used to counter mass degen, and to be honest its not really worth carrying on your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masseur
HB is always in my bar. Been playing for over 2 years and always get complements and people adding to friends when I Monk. I know when to use and not to use it in favor of actual "now" heals. There are far worse skills to bash like infuse health (lemme drop half my health and hope I don't get hit) or healing touch (lemme take some time to run over there and heal you).

As for this, Infuse is one of the best skills in the game and the most powerful heals. If you cant use it right tho dont lol.

TheLichMonky · Oct 26, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

Healing Breeze should only be used to counter mass degen, and to be honest its not really worth carrying on your bar.

As for this, Infuse is one of the best skills in the game and the most powerful heals. If you cant use it right tho dont lol.

Infuse is JUST like frenzy.... good if you know how to use it. <3

bungusmaximus · Oct 26, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLichMonky

Infuse is JUST like frenzy.... good if you know how to use it. <3

The only places where I take infuse are elite missions where I play healer (urgoz/TopK). Monsters spike pretty hard sometimes and infuse->Lod takes care of most cases (if the player properly kites that is else I infuse myself to near death ^^).

This shows exactly why infuse is used anyways, to stop spikes. That's also why they run infusers in HÁ.

Oh yeah, and HB sucks, even a blind puppy spikes right through it and the heal over time is meh. Take Shield of Regen if you want cast-forget spells.

TheLichMonky · Oct 26, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

The only places where I take infuse are elite missions where I play healer (urgoz/TopK). Monsters spike pretty hard sometimes and infuse->Lod takes care of most cases (if the player properly kites that is else I infuse myself to near death ^^).

This shows exactly why infuse is used anyways, to stop spikes. That's also why they run infusers in HÁ.

Oh yeah, and HB sucks, even a blind puppy spikes right through it and the heal over time is meh. Take Shield of Regen if you want cast-forget spells.

When you find a player in PvE who kites, pm me in game, and i will send you a quarter ;p

yum · Oct 26, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Two reasons:
First, it's a 1/4 sec cast. The prevalence of spike tactics has killed the viability of 1 sec and 3/4 sec heals. Often the target is dead before the heal arrives. Even 1/2 sec heals manufactured with HBoon/Holy Haste don't save people from spikes very well. That leaves you with 1/4 sec options. There's only two: Infuse and Glimmer. Glimmer is awful. Infuse is all that's left. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Second, the risk inherent in Infuse is largely negated by the Reverse Pigeonhole Principle in PvP. The opposing party only gets 4/8/12 players. So you know that if X of them are purely defensive, and Y of them are attacking the person you're infusing, and X + Y = 4/8/12, then there are zero remaining to try to capitalize on your suddenly low hp.

I don't see how it is awful from your post. Infuse is, in Izzy's language, neat. It takes skills to be efficient. Infuse works perfect for its pure purpose: anti spike.

Glimmer is a joke, even if it is not an elite, the amount of health it saves is nothing comparing to the amount of damage in the current spike meta (because if it is not an elite,the recharge cant be 2 s).

BTW, in pve, infuse works perfectly. The thing is you don't even need infuse to deal with those mindless mobs. And judging a skill from the pve's perspective FAILS.

HB, like many other skills, can work well in some scenarios; but for the general environment, it doesn't fit very well. That is why people hate it. Look at Balth Pendulum in Arenas, it makes wonder vs the narutard a/mos, other than that the skill sux; while ZB does decently in almost all cases. That's why people favor ZB.

bungusmaximus · Oct 26, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLichMonky

When you find a player in PvE who kites, pm me in game, and i will send you a quarter ;p

In elite missions I usually team up with people who know their stuff, else I'm not gonna bother in the first place

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

BTW, in pve, infuse works perfectly. The thing is you don't even need infuse to deal with those mindless mobs. And judging a skill from the pve's perspective FAILS.

Depends, flail is an awesome skill in PvE, but its use is debatable in PvP, frenzy is the other way round, debatable in PvE, yet awesome in PvP.

Wakka · Oct 26, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Infuse is JUST like frenzy.... good if you know how to use it. <3

Frenzy is the 2nd best skill in the game xD (well either that or diversion)

Glimmer is a bit sucky, I mean you can get almost the same amount for the whole team with LoD ^_^

TheLichMonky · Oct 26, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

Frenzy is the 2nd best skill in the game xD (well either that or diversion)

Glimmer is a bit sucky, I mean you can get almost the same amount for the whole team with LoD ^_^

No no no glimmers isn't even "sucky" it needs to be buffed or removed imo

Div · Oct 26, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLichMonky

When you find a player in PvE who kites, pm me in game, and i will send you a quarter ;p

You owe me a quarter.