Curse

Jaigoda · Nov 05, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

I know this has been discussed before, but I really want to know what you think is better in PVE ONLY. We all know that in PvP, other than LoD, healing sucks (and even LoD sucks in arenas). No, I want to know what you think is better, from a PvE perspective. Also, I'm not talking about UW Aatxes, or other stuff that's dealing 300+ damage per hit, I'm more talking about the regular stuff throughout the game, maybe use the Southern Shiverpeaks as an example (ThK if you want a specific area). As has been discussed, Prot works best with bigger packets of damage (excluding a few skills like SoA or SH), while healing is less conditional. Also, other than Aegis (which, in my opinion, is not worth it since with GoLE it takes up two slots to be up for a third of the time), there are no party-based heals, so if multiple players are being attacked, it's more difficult to keep them all alive. So basically, I'm asking whether in general, mid-end PvE, healing or prot is better.

Please, please, PLEASE, no flame wars (or bait), and also, if you're mainly a PvP based player, or if you say that if it works in GvG it works anywhere, please do me a favor and don't post. And again, remember the first rule if you're gonna quote me on something. If someone doesn't obay these rules, I would like the moderator to kindly close this forum so it doesn't turn into an 11-page GvG-based flame war.

Grumpy · Nov 05, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I usually just 'hybrid' in PvE, and it works fine. LoD does party wide health management, while prots reduce most of the damage.

[card]Light of Deliverance[/card][card]Reversal of Fortune[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card][card]Dwayna's Kiss[/card][card]protective spirit[/card][card]guardian[/card][card]dismiss condition[/card][card]Remove Hex[/card] Or Cure Hex.

Chthon · Nov 05, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

1. Like everything else in the game, it depends on the area.

2. This topic is just begging to degenerate into a flamefest.

Ensign · Nov 05, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Honestly Prot doesn't have the same value in most of PvE that it does in PvP; there are more threats and they don't switch targets as often. Shield of Absorption is still amazing on a focused target, and Protective Spirit is pretty much required to deal with many boss encounters outside of Prophecies, but otherwise Prot really isn't too essential outside of Hard Mode.

What's really at a high value in PvE is cleaning; there's usually a lot of hexes or a lot of conditions flying around in a fight, sometimes both. Cure Hex and Mend / Dismiss Condition are some of the best skills in PvE, combining removal with a decent heal.

Through most of PvE you'll get away with red-barring just fine, though you should be moving bars up and taking away the little down arrows as well. You don't need very many skills on your bar to do that job effectively - LoD and 2 spot heals is common and more that sufficient. The rest can go into cleaning, and a bit of prot if you're so inclined.

arcady · Nov 05, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I prefer prot, even in PvE.

My usual build begins with:

[card]Zealous Benediction[/card][card]Reversal of Fortune[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card][card]protective spirit[/card][card]guardian[/card][card]draw conditions[/card][card]Aegis[/card][card]Rebirth[/card]

Though I often swap in [card]Remove Hex[/card].

[card]Zealous Benediction[/card] is the only 'heal' I need, I can find it on the Protection line. Before I capped it I used [card]Life Sheath[/card] and before that [card]Divine Boon[/card]. In low end PvE (before you reach elites) [card]Divine Boon[/card] is more than enough.

Even now, half the time, I don't need [card]Zealous Benediction[/card] because my prots are good enough to cover ahead of time. To be honest, in PvE, I'm still not convinced Zealous Benediction is better than Life Sheath. Numbers notwithstanding, Life Sheath seemed to work better when I was using it. Zealous Benediction performs more like a patch for when my usual tactics are failing. But then, it is always wise to be prepared beyond expectations - which is why I'm carrying Rebirth.

Div · Nov 05, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I usually just 'hybrid' in PvE, and it works fine. LoD does party wide health management, while prots reduce most of the damage.

[card]Light of Deliverance[/card][card]Reversal of Fortune[/card][card]Shield of Absorption[/card][card]Dwayna's Kiss[/card][card]protective spirit[/card][card]guardian[/card][card]dismiss condition[/card][card]Remove Hex[/card] Or Cure Hex.

Looks good to me. I usually take aegis over guardian just because it's too much effort to actually constantly prot targets in PvE :P

And cure hex over remove hex. There are so many hexes that the recharge of remove hex isn't really a benefit, but cure hex gives a huge heal, which is why I use it. Think of it as a dwaynas that also has the side effect of removing a hex, not as a hex removal with healing :P

moko · Nov 05, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

who cares when you just take LoD with ursanway? =P

for NM, a hybrid lod can probably solo monk most areas, in HM add another hybrid prot, or a third.

pure healing is just less effective. just use aegis (you don't even need gole, sup with the OP?), mobs die, you win. that's usually the case for NM.

Ensign · Nov 05, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

The thing to realize when making a 'healer' is that you don't need 8 slots worth of heals to be an effective healer. A character with LoD and 2 spot heals (Dwayna's Kiss plus your choice of Healing Whisper, Ethereal Light, Signet of Rejuvenation, or Reversal of Fortune for harder content) is going to do 95% of what a pure healer can do. Speccing 10 into Protection Prayers for a good condition removal and SoA only costs you 3 points of Divine Favor, which translates into just 10 health per heal.

With the notable exception of Healer's Boon, there's really no reason not to take advantage of the 3rd attribute. It's not like an extra 10 health on another redundant spot heal is going to make the least bit of difference.

the_jos · Nov 05, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

I use a BL hybrid prot a lot, since that one covers most of the conditions encountered.
Since most teams run two monks in 8-man area's, I'd go with one healer and one protection (or two hybrids).

Looking at what will be hitting the team in areas like THK, I know two healers will also do.
However, that's Prophecies and some foes in Factions and Nightfall hit a lot harder than those in Prophecies.
Healers only might not be sufficient for the average team in those chapters.

You need to keep the red bars in the safe zone (prot) and when they go down too much you need to get them up again (heal).
That's either hybrid or a healer/prot combo.
There are exceptions where pure protection (life bond+SoR) works great, but that depends on the number of enchantment removers.
And is overkill in the average Normal Mode mission.

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 05, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

I often use a Full prot monk with ZB for main heal. Though having a high Divine (12+), any spammable skill can heal nicely. Especially RoF. It heals 45ish because of Divine and then heals more if the target gets hit. And it reduces 1 attack to 0. Also Mend Condition is a good 'healing' skill, if you remove a condition, the target gets healed for 75 + 45.

If you are going full Healing, it is recommended to take some 'protection' skills from the Healing Prayers. I mean skills like the two Spotlesses, Healing Seed, Healing Breeze, in general the enchantments. Combining these with Dwayna's Kiss does nice cheap healing.

This way you can give a Pure Prot some 'healing' skills and a Pure Healer some 'prot' skills.

Prot or Healing better? It all depends on the situation I guess. If you have a capable team that can spread out good to avoid AoE dmg, you can do without a Healer with Heal Party and LoD. But some areas do too massive AoE dmg, that Heal Party is definately needed.
If you are going into an area in which the foes do 1337 dmg, you really need that Protective Spirit.

AscalonWarrior · Nov 05, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I used healing, and I still do if someone wants. But I usually just go ZB build with.. the healing skill which siables other Healing Prayers skills.. d'oh forgot the name

John Panda · Nov 05, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Hybrid Builds.. ftw?

prot and heal is what i am usually using <_<

like zb and goh or lod prot spirit and soa

stanza · Nov 05, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

My problem with ZB is that in areas when u take a second monk as a healer if he beats you to the heal you waste 10e.

So I usually go full prot with dismiss condition and SoR at the moment for "healing" ,GolE or in areas with known partywide degen/damage i take LoD and go hybrid.

Winterclaw · Nov 05, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

For PvE I'm just as likely to go heal/offense as I am heal/prot. Even if it's something as simple as a DF staff that does fire damage and conjure flames I find that in some situations it's good to help deal more damage than you could normally when you don't need to heal.

Jaigoda · Nov 05, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Great job on the discussion guys, this is the stuff I was hoping for. Basically, I was just trying to make a thread showing that pure prot isn't as godly as it's cracked up to be, and that healing is a viable choice (this is all PvE, of course). And while I admit that hybrids are most likely the way to go (though I prefer ZB with GoH, instead of LoD with prot), prot isn't the be-all, end-all attribute that a lot of people say it is. I'm not saying it's crap, either, but I'm just trying to show that in regular areas (later Ring of Fire Islands and pretty much all HM are excluded), healing can compete with, or possibly even exceed, the power of prot.

Thank you all for posting, everyone, keep it up!

Ensign · Nov 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Honestly, for most of Prophecies pushing LoD on recharge is more than sufficient.

I'd only seriously consider going pure prot, with Zealous Benediction and Dismiss for heals, if I was monking solo. Otherwise I'd take Gift of Health with some other Prot elite, no question.

Chthon · Nov 05, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Honestly Prot doesn't have the same value in most of PvE that it does in PvP; there are more threats and they don't switch targets as often. Shield of Absorption is still amazing on a focused target, and Protective Spirit is pretty much required to deal with many boss encounters outside of Prophecies, but otherwise Prot really isn't too essential outside of Hard Mode.

I pretty much agree.

(But why is that that when I say something like this I get flamed to high heaven and told to uninstall, but when you say it no one blinks?...)

Quote:

What's really at a high value in PvE is cleaning; there's usually a lot of hexes or a lot of conditions flying around in a fight, sometimes both. Cure Hex and Mend / Dismiss Condition are some of the best skills in PvE, combining removal with a decent heal.

Through most of PvE you'll get away with red-barring just fine, though you should be moving bars up and taking away the little down arrows as well.

Most of Prophecies wasn't that bad hex/condition-wise. I think the devs have steadily increased the amount of hexes/conditions in PvE as time has gone on.

Apropos of status restoration, these do not have to be tasks dedicated to the monk primaries. You can remove conditions just fine with zero prot prayers, if you have a good reason to shift that task to other characters. (A minion bomber hero with infuse condition and draw conditions springs to mind.) That said, often the monk primary is the best person to take the status restoration job anyway.

moriz · Nov 05, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(But why is that that when I say something like this I get flamed to high heaven and told to uninstall, but when you say it no one blinks?...)

he's ensign. he can say that monks should carry mending and warriors carry healing hands, and no one would dare to contradict him.

either way, while healing is now good in pve, it's mostly because of LoD. most of the other healing skills are still pretty bad. even if you intend to push red bars up with LoD, you should still carry at least SOME prot. not using any at all is generally not a good idea.

Age · Nov 05, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

When it comes down to Prophecies only I don't see no problem with healing.Who else is going to keep the MM healed up as the MM is using BoTM and that is the same for Eles and it is best to have the healing Monk watch the King in THK not the protect Monk or secondary healer.

There is not one other profession that puts all thier attributes down except Monks.When you look at Assassins,Elementalists,Dervishes,Mesmers,Paragons ,Ritualists and Warriors they all have great attribute if they want to use one line soley.They don't make up hybrids.

I have seen pure healing Monks solo this mission with 7 others.

Div · Nov 05, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

When it comes down to Prophecies only I don't see no problem with healing.Who else is going to keep the MM healed up as the MM is using BoTM and that is the same for Eles and it is best to have the healing Monk watch the King in THK not the protect Monk or secondary healer.

In the case where you just have to protect one target like the king, it really doesn't matter if you put a healing or prot monk on him. A king stacked with prots is going to live just as well as one whose health keeps going down and up by a heal monk.

Quote:

There is not one other profession that puts all thier attributes down except Monks.When you look at Assassins,Elementalists,Dervishes,Mesmers,Paragons ,Ritualists and Warriors they all have great attribute if they want to use one line soley.They don't make up hybrids.

While I agree that other classes can use one attribute line effectively, most/many good builds run hybrids. For example, a fire nuker (or blind ele) with a ward is very valuable. Mesmers generally "hybrid" between domination or illusion and inspiration for energy management. Paragons don't just run spear mastery and leadership, they'll touch into either command or motivation. Sins sometimes 4-spec into all their attributes. Dervishes have 8 in earth prayers for survival. Warriors tend to spec into both a weapon mastery+tactics in addition to strength, though obviously you can do well with just weapon+strength.