Curse

Coloneh · Oct 15, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Sigh...
This has been gone over to death in the thread dedicated to discussing sup runes. There is a reasonable argument for not using sup runes. bla bla bla bla bla.

In any event, I included 2 sets of figures specifically to avoid having to justify doing the analysis only at 16 Healing Prayers. Sigh.

the argument against sup runes not being worth it is that there is almost no benefit. on orison for example you gain 6hp per heal for losing that 75 health. thats not a very good reason to me. that non getting aggro thing is just a bonus.

also. your figures are pointless. no smart player runs 16 healing, or 13 healing. hybrid is the meta. try re-doing that data at 11 or 12.

Ensign · Oct 15, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

If you're not using Prot on your Monk, you're better off going N/Rt with a bunch of Restoration stuff. Healing Monks FTL.

Tab · Oct 15, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

If you aren't using Prot on your Monk, you're better off just uninstalling tbh.

Chthon · Oct 15, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

the argument against sup runes not being worth it is that there is almost no benefit. on orison for example you gain 6hp per heal for losing that 75 health. thats not a very good reason to me. that non getting aggro thing is just a bonus.

Some skills scale better than others. For orison, the extra two attributes aren't worth it. For, say, heal other, it makes a bigger difference. The other side of the equation is how much is 75hp worth? If you play fast with large aggro in hard, hard zones, 75hp may often be the difference between life and death; if you play more typical PvE, you're probably not ever using that last 75 hp anyway. In any event, the 75-more-hp-means-I-avoid-aggro idea is just dumb. And, in any event, OP wants to compare WoH and LOD, whether or not to use a sup rune is off topic and I never should have responded to it in the first place.

Quote:

also. your figures are pointless. no smart player runs 16 healing, or 13 healing. hybrid is the meta. try re-doing that data at 11 or 12.

1. OP is clearly a PvE player, so the meta is irrelevant. Unless you really think hybrid is just superior for general PvE, in which case I disagree.

2. If you can't extrapolate what's going to happen at 11 and 12 from what happened at 13 and 16, that says something very unflattering about your reasoning abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you're not using Prot on your Monk, you're better off going N/Rt with a bunch of Restoration stuff. Healing Monks FTL.

1. OP has a monk. A healing monk. And OP wants to know whether WoH or LoD is better. Neither "go prot" nor "use a necro" is a responsive reply.

2. Although it's a topic for another day and thread, I think you're wrong here, at least about the uselessness of heal.

Utaku · Oct 15, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Maybe OP can become better at the game and try to prot?
How bad is that?

Edit: oh and explain again to my 640 hp survivor monk how the argument about not catching agro is bad, she doesn't get it...

BLOODGOAT · Oct 15, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

yes, if you are going with a full healing build, WoH is surely better, but hybrid/LoD beats it.

I've always been the person who criticized prot/heal hybrids because I believe to effectively do your job, you should do only that job and not try to infuse all these other little things into it. I'm not going to run prot/heal when I could just PUG with another monk who's already running full prot, and run full heal myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Seriously. Why take WoH and a load of non elite heals when you can do it all so much better with LoD?

Because in my experience, I can do it so much better with Word of Healing, as I have already stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

If you aren't using Prot on your Monk, you're better off just uninstalling tbh.

I really don't see a high demand for Prot in PvE because enemy monsters don't run strats and have hardly anything to be afraid of. I can't remember the last time an enemy assassin Death Charged my monk and ripped her apart with a Moebius combo, much unlike something like RA (where prot is much more beneficial to your team's success). But if I ever decide to play PvP, maybe I'll consider this little flame to be a tid-bit.

Oh, and I'm not exactly asking which is better as there seems to be a misconception of this. I know for the energy cost and what it does, LoD overshadows WoH, bar-none. I was asking what everybody else prefers and why. I stated that I prefer WoH, but it doesn't necessarily mean I think LoD is a useless skill. Far from the fact. It is a great skill, but I can't seem to stress this enough... it just doesn't suit the PvE I do. When I play PvE I kill everything too fast for it to even bring more than 2-3 party members below 80% health

Chthon · Oct 15, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

oh and explain again to my 640 hp survivor monk how the argument about not catching agro is bad, she doesn't get it...

Reading comprehension is good.

"Not catching aggro" is not the same thing as "trading 2 att points for 75 hp in an ineffective attempt to not catch aggro."

Not catching aggro is good.

The notion that 75 extra hp helps you avoid aggro so well that it's worth giving up 2 attribute points is bad. The weight given to 75 hp on a 60AL target in the monsters' target selection process is negligible, especially compared to the effect of good positioning, and is hardly worth 2 attribute points. Moreover, it only works if you're the only person on your team doing it. If everyone else plays "smart" too, the aggro pattern ends up exactly the same.

Tab · Oct 15, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Good monks run minor runes.

Div · Oct 15, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

I've always been the person who criticized prot/heal hybrids because I believe to effectively do your job, you should do only that job and not try to infuse all these other little things into it. I'm not going to run prot/heal when I could just PUG with another monk who's already running full prot, and run full heal myself.

Because in my experience, I can do it so much better with Word of Healing, as I have already stated.

I really don't see a high demand for Prot in PvE because enemy monsters don't run strats and have hardly anything to be afraid of. I can't remember the last time an enemy assassin Death Charged my monk and ripped her apart with a Moebius combo, much unlike something like RA (where prot is much more beneficial to your team's success). But if I ever decide to play PvP, maybe I'll consider this little flame to be a tid-bit.

Oh, and I'm not exactly asking which is better as there seems to be a misconception of this. I know for the energy cost and what it does, LoD overshadows WoH, bar-none. I was asking what everybody else prefers and why. I stated that I prefer WoH, but it doesn't necessarily mean I think LoD is a useless skill. Far from the fact. It is a great skill, but I can't seem to stress this enough... it just doesn't suit the PvE I do. When I play PvE I kill everything too fast for it to even bring more than 2-3 party members below 80% health

There is basically no discussion left then. If you want to run a pure red bars heal monk and think it's good, by all means do. All the good players will stick to their LoD hybrid and not run inferior stuff.

Div · Oct 15, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. OP has a monk. A healing monk. And OP wants to know whether WoH or LoD is better. Neither "go prot" nor "use a necro" is a responsive reply.

2. Although it's a topic for another day and thread, I think you're wrong here, at least about the uselessness of heal.

1. It's like saying I have a smiting monk and asking why I don't heal my team enough. Answer? Because you're running something bad and you need to change it. In fact, the OP doesn't want to know which is better.

2. No, you're wrong. Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows the limitations of pure healing monks. In fact, pure restoration ritualists outclass healing monks based on effective heal/energy if you don't take into account LoD. Prot and reliable damage reduction is what distinguishes a monk from a ritualist in terms of backlining.

Coloneh · Oct 15, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. OP is clearly a PvE player, so the meta is irrelevant. Unless you really think hybrid is just superior for general PvE, in which case I disagree.

you can disagree all you want, but you are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. If you can't extrapolate what's going to happen at 11 and 12 from what happened at 13 and 16, that says something very unflattering about your reasoning abilities.

im to lazy to do math. my bad. if you care that much then do it yourself. i proved your calculations werent applicable to the situation, thats all i needed to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. OP has a monk. A healing monk. And OP wants to know whether WoH or LoD is better. Neither "go prot" nor "use a necro" is a responsive reply.

they are good replys. and no one said "go necro". they said if he wants to run pure heal, hes better off going necro/rit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Although it's a topic for another day and thread, I think you're wrong here, at least about the uselessness of heal.

healing by itself is almost totally useless. if you can't understand that, then gg, go uninstall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

I've always been the person who criticized prot/heal hybrids because I believe to effectively do your job, you should do only that job and not try to infuse all these other little things into it. I'm not going to run prot/heal when I could just PUG with another monk who's already running full prot, and run full heal myself.

Is this sarcasm? if it isnt, then i feel very bad for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

I really don't see a high demand for Prot in PvE because enemy monsters don't run strats and have hardly anything to be afraid of.

you dont see deman because you play PUGs. PUGs are stupid, all of the good players started using H/H or guild groups a LONG time ago. also please actually play some end-game content, we arent talking about those creatures in pre- here, try playing against an aatxe or an ele boss without prot. see how that goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

it just doesn't suit the PvE I do. When I play PvE I kill everything too fast for it to even bring more than 2-3 party members below 80% health

if nothing is going below 80% you dont need to be monking, you are wasting a team slot that could be damage. if you are keeping everyone above 80% then you are overhealing and wasting energy.

Div · Oct 16, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

If you aren't using Prot on your Monk, you're better off just uninstalling tbh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

healing by itself is almost totally useless. if you can't understand that, then gg, go uninstall.

Lots of uninstalling to do...

BLOODGOAT · Oct 16, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

you can disagree all you want, but you are wrong.

And you can flame all you want, but it doesn't make you right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

you dont see deman because you play PUGs. PUGs are stupid, all of the good players started using H/H or guild groups a LONG time ago. also please actually play some end-game content, we arent talking about those creatures in pre- here, try playing against an aatxe or an ele boss without prot. see how that goes.

This one is a gooder. Not only did he try to flame, but he also did it while making laughable assumptions.
I don't pug, son.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

if nothing is going below 80% you dont need to be monking, you are wasting a team slot that could be damage. if you are keeping everyone above 80% then you are overhealing and wasting energy.

Then please enlighten me as to some sort of nuking monk build. Because, you know, how am I wasting a party slot when I am the monk? And I don't call having 45/60 energy the entire time, "wasting". Maybe you do, but you don't seem entirely right as it is, or as you think you are.
In fact, this entire thread has turned from a discussion on LoD and WoH, as I intended, to a hatefest/flamefest of prot vs. healing monks, which last I checked, was not a major concern in PvE because, last I recall, MONSTERS DON'T CALL STRATS AND GENERALLY SUCK.

korcan · Oct 16, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Do you say "3, 2, 1 heal!" on vent?

that made me lol.

Stormlord Alex · Oct 16, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

MONSTERS DON'T CALL STRATS AND GENERALLY SUCK.

They may well suck...
...but a 400 damage Searing Flames is still a 400 damage Searing Flames. Prot pwns PvE, harder and more efficiently than a healer ever could, it's just that PvE is easy enough to allow bad bars and bad players to succeed.

Tab · Oct 16, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Dear OP,
You are bad at Guild Wars. Please stop trying to claim otherwise.

JoeKnowMo · Oct 16, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

All the math in the world isn't going to make WoH better than LoD because there are other spells that can achieve similar effects to WoH. The only spell similar to LoD is Heal Party which comes with a massive cost, often requires e-mgmt and is therefore not spammable.

BLOODGOAT · Oct 16, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Dear OP,
You are bad at Guild Wars. Please stop trying to claim otherwise.

Maybe PvP

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

Let's keep flaming out of this. Just post why you like/dislike either skill and elaborate on the reason why.

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill]
As much as some people would hate me for it, I have to say that this is my favorite Monk elite next to something like, oh, Spellbreaker (even though they are used in completely different instances). While others prefer LoD for it's low energy cost, party-wide heal, I don't find it to be particularly beneficial to my play style.
When I play PvE, I wait until my party members (or heroes) are below 60% health and I spike-heal them. I, in my experience, notice that monster damage is largely concentrated amongst two or three single targets of the entire team. When these members begin getting spiked to below 50% health, Word of Healing (in conjunction with Holy Haste and Divine Boon) can take any one of my party members from 30-40% health to 90-100% health in an instant. Now while LoD is an (extremely) efficient party-wide heal, and I won't deny that for a second, it seems to only be useful (to me, at least) in massive party-spike situations, which when playing Prophecies (my main campaign of choice) is not exactly something that comes up every other mob. Maybe in the later missions, Hell's Precipice with the Sparks and their massive AoE output, but otherwise WoH seems to be the main heal in my arsenal.
I do everything with the exact same skill bar, the exact same hero setup, and the exact same henchmen. I always use WoH and I've encountered very little trouble. I always support myself with MoW running a BiP build, so I almost never run out of energy (Divine Boon

) and can constantly spike-heal my party. Sure, there are times when even a .5s WoH can't negate the effects of a BiP spam, especially when MoW is the monster's target of choice, and he does die, but he's the only one who dies, and those deaths are few and far between.
This is of course speaking out of experience with WoH only.

The other day I attempted to run a slightly modified version of my current healing build except for the fact I swapped WoH for LoD and attempted to do any of my usual boss runs (for skill capping) and it just didn't cut it. If anything, it felt like it required more team maintenance because I was either waiting for my party members to drop to less than 80% health before I'd cast it, unintentionally cast it while they were above 80% health and waste my energy out of sheer habit (not that it's really a problem, but it certainly wastes more energy than I'd like in conjunction with Divine Boon), or just spam my other healing skills because they honestly seemed much more effective. Obviously LoD is somewhat tailored to specific builds, but as a spike-healer that relies on my allies being under a certain portion of health for maximum efficiency, it just doesn't really have a solid place on my skill-bar.

What are your thoughts on the two?

My thoughts are that bip is a waste of an elite to make up for a player with a bad skill bar.

Divine boon and WoH together is fail.

Quote:

LoD is an (extremely) efficient party-wide heal, and I won't deny that for a second, it seems to only be useful (to me, at least) in massive party-spike situations, which when playing Prophecies

This is fail too, lod isn't a proph skill.

LOD works fine for prophecies anyway, don't get me wrong but don't adjust it just because it doesn't suit one player, in one game it wasn't made for

.

P.S. You're bad at PVE if you need bip, sorry.

Full Metal X · Oct 16, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLOODGOAT

And you can flame all you want, but it doesn't make you right.

TBH it does, it really does. Side note i smell fail in here.