Curse

Div · Oct 09, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amalek

This is true, only bad players half/fake spike or draw prot to pressure enemy monks.

Or maybe the target just got hit by a critical spear of lightning.

And I thought only good players know how to fake spike. Bad players train a target with SoD on it.

It's up to the OP what advice he wants to listen to. If the OP just wants to play "casual PvP" then spamming RoF is fine. But any monk who knows what they're talking about will tell you to stop sucking by spamming RoF and watching the playing field for better protting.

horseradish · Oct 10, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

alright great info.

what about RoF in PvE?

i rarely see a monk bring this skill there.

Age · Oct 10, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Because most PvE monks use healing prayers look at the what Sup Healing is going for.It is great in used in PvE being a PvE protect Monk I get a lot of credit.

horseradish · Oct 10, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

yeah seriously...

imho, no monk should be a pure healer unless there's a proto monk in the group.

I play factions alot, so cleaning up the conditions and hexes goes a long way.

Coloneh · Oct 10, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

monks should never be pure healing. who cares if theres a prot in the group? both should be hybrid.

Div · Oct 10, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

monks should never be pure healing. who cares if theres a prot in the group? both should be hybrid.

Very true.

Though I run an LoD bar for PvE, it has it's nice mix of prot skills...something like
RoF
Dwayna's kiss
Cure hex
Dismiss condition (or GoLE)
Prot spirit
LoD
Aegis
SoA

arcady · Oct 10, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Interesting.

I always build my monks as either pure prot or pure heal. When I H+H and on my monk, I always make the Hero a pure heal build. When I'm not on my monk, I will bring a prot hero if I only bring one monk, or one of each prot or heal if I bring two.

That allows me to focus on their builds - maximizing the skillbars and the runes I put on them.

arcady · Oct 10, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amalek

This is true, only bad players half/fake spike or draw prot to pressure enemy monks.

Ok, that's a strategy that can sometimes work, but... split attention is just that - split. Generally, as long as you have 1 pip of health, you're still dealing damage, unless a mesmer (or the like) has flipped your off-switch. the more you split your attention the longer it takes you to take down targets. So if you're going to do it, you'd better be sure you can get away with it - be sure you can afford the extra time it will cost you to achieve victory.

Exceptions exist, but I assume when monking that in general they're going to try and kill / shutdown the members of my team, as fast as they can, not just poke them with sharp sticks in a round robin game.

If the scenario starts to play out otherwise, the most important advice I'd give is to know how to switch tactics. Don't get locked into any one strategy - be it mine or the person I am responding to.

horseradish · Oct 10, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

i don't normally like two hybrid monks.

one proto monk and a hybrid or resto rit is good enough imo.

JoeKnowMo · Oct 10, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

i don't normally like two hybrid monks.

one proto monk and a hybrid or resto rit is good enough imo.

You'd do well to listen to the pros about hybrid monks in pve.

An Aegis chain will prevent a bucketload of damage against physical enemies.Pre-protting will also reduce a ton of damage.

You can run masamune's build below on one monk and variation of it (skill listed after "/") on the other monk.

RoF
Dwayna's kiss
Cure hex/Sig of Rejuv
Dismiss condition (or GoLE)
Prot spirit/Spirit Bond
LoD/WoH
Aegis
SoA/Shielding Hands

Having hybrid monks also helps when one monk is the target of Backfire, Soul Leech, etc. or is being trained by the monsters.

The standard pve mentality of monks speccing purely for prot or healing is a poor practice and often results in subpar skills making the skillbar (think Healing Breeze and its ugly cousins).

I'm not a pro but I learned a long time ago that (high-level) pvp'ers know what's up. You're better off listening to them than other pve'ers.

horseradish · Oct 10, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

ah so hybrid monks is for split tactics and so the group will survive if one monk is shut down. The group wonn't have all their eggs in one basket..or...something i dunno

I've heard of Aegis chains. they seem like fun.

I have seen full proto monks in high lvl GvG matches sporting RC and such, and the only skills not from Protection Prayers, on some skill bars, are Divine Spirit and Deny Hexes.

I've also read an article that PS and SB should not be in the same build.

I take it separating the spells are much like hybrid monking. They seem similar, but are they are used for different purposes?

Dodo The Extinct · Oct 10, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

RoF is kinda overrated, but it is a great skill. I don't think it is godly, but it is a good skill. It is what Orison should be like.

RoF a good "Omg!" skill. You use it when some1 is getting killed fast, when you should probably use a skill that is more appropriate for the kind of damage they are taking.

That being said, it still heals for a good amount, has a good recharge, and roxxors

Bowstring Badass · Oct 10, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

An Aegis chain will prevent a bucketload of damage against physical enemies.

lol? Aegis blows now to hard to use in pve now with a bunch of moronic pugs.

Ben-A-BoO · Oct 10, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Slightly off topic but still one of the most important lessons of this thread:

The visuals of the game are not only eye-candy!

~ Player movement in general is easily observed - important for melee spikes -

~ Skills have distinct "emotes" and especially incoming spikes are much more easier to predict - Rt spike and shiny balls were a good lesson there back in the days -

~ In addition: turn up your volume - example: diversion and the godly esc button -

These simple but good advices by the above guru fellows should make your RoF a bit more effective ... in pve and pvp

Good luck monking!

Timebandit

Amalek · Oct 10, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Ok, that's a strategy that can sometimes work, but... split attention is just that - split. Generally, as long as you have 1 pip of health, you're still dealing damage, unless a mesmer (or the like) has flipped your off-switch. the more you split your attention the longer it takes you to take down targets. So if you're going to do it, you'd better be sure you can get away with it - be sure you can afford the extra time it will cost you to achieve victory.

The idea behind it isn't to equally damage everyone, the idea is, for example, have your wars converge on a target, perhaps one war shocks, the monk SoD's the target, you have a 5s (assuming no HSR) window to converge and spike another target without SoD. It's the same as that long discussion on Team Quitter about orbing soft targets when not spiking - it can often draw a prot spirit or a spirit bond from unattentive or bad monks, and greatly increase the pressure your team outputs. If you constantly create a bunch of threats that may or may not be real threats, and the opponents react to them all, they burn a ton of energy and efficiency. Not many guilds half or fake spike anymore, but it used to be common.

arcady · Oct 10, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Nod. I see where you're coming at. I'm just thinking that one reason it might not be so common anymore is that if you have the time to get away with so much, it might be a sign that the other side has such weak strategy that you don't need to get away with so much. By contrast, it can also mean that the other side is -so good- that you are forced to take a long time to get anywhere against them, which opens up a different set of strategy tools.

In PvE on the other hand, the AI is a bit more predictable. And once you've faced a certain kind of critter, at least until the next patch you can come in knowing whether or not it will pull tricks like this.

I will also agree that the visuals are more than eye-candy. And keep your monk on the move based upon what you see around you. In a hard choice between the party bar and the screen, I go for the bar - but if I can pay attention to both I will.

A final note, watching the bar is a way to help avoid getting tricked by the splitting tactic above - if you use your bar watching properly. I don't kick into attention when the bar shows small hits, only when it shows big hits or continuous hits. When I watch the screen I can get 'psyched out' in ways that the bar doesn't do for me.

When I look at the bar I pay attention to a couple of factors:
Is that red lower than it should be?
Is there positive regen going on?
Is there degen going on, that outpaces the positive?
Is it something that I can -and- should deal with now or later - based on my energy management?

That last one is very fuzzy and takes experience. You have to get a feel over time for when to 'waste energy' on a high energy prot, and when to spam a low energy quickie.

RoF is great because I can put it out there at a very low cost to me for what it does for my team. Not the best spell, but great in the cost-benefit analysis that comes into play on the 'fuzzy' one above.

But good monking, for me at least, involves both the party bar and the screen, although I still favor the bar over the screen if circumstance has reached a point where I can only use one. Actually, I also have to factor the radar into that too - I glance at the radar often to see if somebody who was not in my screen line of sight is getting to a spot I want them to be in - red or blue dot. But obviously, on limited time, you have to learn to make quick calls over which one to glance at next with the least amount of 'cost' to you from not having used that split second to glance at one of the other three.

Dodo The Extinct · Oct 11, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Being a good monk involves alot of multitasking. Casting Veil and ending it on someone while you remove a condition at the same time and begin to pre-kite against a Warrior.

....thats why I don't monk anymore

JoeKnowMo · Oct 11, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

ah so hybrid monks is for split tactics and so the group will survive if one monk is shut down. The group wonn't have all their eggs in one basket..or...something i dunno

I'm only referring to PvE. I've been in a few groups where the designated healer has backfire on him and goes inactive for 10s, while the designated prot monk is spamming Mend Condition on people without any conditions because he's trying to get red bars up and doesn't have any decent heals.

Quote:

I have seen full proto monks in high lvl GvG matches sporting RC and such, and the only skills not from Protection Prayers, on some skill bars, are Divine Spirit and Deny Hexes.

They usually have Gift as the lone Healing Prayers spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

lol? Aegis blows now to hard to use in pve now with a bunch of moronic pugs.

You should be able to manage staying within earshot of everybody at the beginning of a battle at the very least.

horseradish · Oct 11, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Backfire is easy to get rid of though. I never monk without at least one hex and condition removal. In PvE, where communication is lacking, i try to keep everyone clean as best i can. If i'm in a competent group, then i'll ask them to ping pesky hexes.

Gift of Health...yeah i've seen it on proto monks before. Albeit, not all of them, but they usually have Zealous Benediction and/or a healing skill from Divine Favor like Signet of Devotion.

ah, so much to learn about monks. good thing i love this game.

JoeKnowMo · Oct 11, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Gift of Health...yeah i've seen it on proto monks before. Albeit, not all of them, but they usually have Zealous Benediction and/or a healing skill from Divine Favor like Signet of Devotion.

Dismiss Condition is another decent heal that often makes their bars.

Quote:

ah, so much to learn about monks. good thing i love this game.

Yep. I learn a lot from watching observer mode and reading what pvp monks say. Monking (for me) is awfully challenging in pve and low-level pvp, so I have much respect for the high-level pvp monks.