Curse

BlackSephir · Oct 25, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Golden Fox is 4s

SotiCoto · Oct 25, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Golden Fox is 4s

.... Ok.
I never use it and was reading off the icon.
My mistake.
But still.... is GPS that much slower than using Lead > Offhand... and worth taking up a skill slot that could be used for something else?

Utaku · Oct 25, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Well, it makes me cry inside to use auto attacks when my chain is recharging... And using 4 slots for attacks leaves enough room for the rest.

SotiCoto · Oct 25, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

Well, it makes me cry inside to use auto attacks when my chain is recharging... And using 4 slots for attacks leaves enough room for the rest.

It makes me cry inside when my character gets wailed on due to not having 75% block chance or nice health-chunkies with every Critical. Also makes me cry inside when Critical Agility gets stripped due to not having a cover enchantment..... and trust me... Critical Defenses is the ONLY thing that can cover Critical Agility.
To each their own I suppose.

Utaku · Oct 25, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

It makes me cry inside when my character gets wailed on due to not having 75% block chance or nice health-chunkies with every Critical. Also makes me cry inside when Critical Agility gets stripped due to not having a cover enchantment..... and trust me... Critical Defenses is the ONLY thing that can cover Critical Agility.
To each their own I suppose.

[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]critical defenses[/skill][skill]way of perfection[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill][skill]critical agility[/skill]

Your precious enchantments aren't incompatible with this pve chain, right?

But you're right, to each their own, I never use crit def or WoP on my sin.

SotiCoto · Oct 25, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

Your precious enchantments aren't incompatible with this pve chain, right?

But you're right, to each their own, I never use crit def or WoP on my sin.

No Dash?
No Critical Strike?

I could understand occasionally taking out the latter (though I'd have more difficulty maintaining Critical Agility while rampaging), but never the former.
The very notion of going anywhere without a movement speed boost is anathema to me.
[And the number of skills I'd sooner take than Res Sig are in double-figures at least, including just about every Hard Res in the game (e.g. Death Pact Signet)].

Stormlord Alex · Oct 25, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Edit.... nevermind, head's not working

Jaigoda · Oct 25, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

To you people saying my rant was pointless, I never once said it applied to +damage. I know that it only applies to base damage, and that's what I'm getting at. With a 33% IAS, you do 4 regular dagger attacks per MBlossom loop (3 of those also have +damage, but that's irrelevent to Flurry and my point), MS, DB (x2), and an autoattack. this means that you're doing 4 attacks at 75% damage, which totals to 3 attacks at 100% damage. Without an IAS, you do 3 attacks at 100% damage. Do you understand? Or am I going to have to make 5 more posts rewording my original point like I'm doing in that other thread?

Sqube · Oct 25, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

How, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that 4 attacks at 75% damage is equivalent to 3 attacks at 100% damage? You're not taking into account the likelihood of criticals and the fact that you don't do the exact same amount of damage every time. Like I said, the most damage you could lose on a given attack is 4 (assuming a crit that gives 20 damage).

Also, since Flurry's damage loss only applies to base damage, your attacks are not hitting at 75%. Let's go with Moebius Death Blossom and assume that you're hitting for 7 damage with your dagger attacks. Also, let's go with 12 DM and 13 CS; you might not agree with those numbers, but they work for the sake of maintaining consistency.

Flurry, 7 dagger damage:
MS + DB = 125.75

No Flurry, 7 dagger damage:
MS + DB = 131

That is a difference of ~4%, or 5.25 damage.

Flurry, 20 dagger damage:
MS + DB = 155

No Flurry, 20 dagger damage:
MS + DB = 170

That is a difference of ~8.9%, or 15 damage.

Now consider that, due to your increased attack speed, you're going to get a free auto-attack in there in the same amount of time that it would take you to loop. If my auto-attack is a crit, I win. Even if it's not a critical, it's an extra attack. If I'm using vamp daggers, that's more health for me and more damage for my foe. If I'm using zealous daggers, that means I get more energy.

Of course, the difference is even more extreme when you start considering that maybe I'm running the typical BLS-TF-BSS-BoS spike. The 33% increased attack speed gives you a lot less time to get protected, kite, etc.

I'm going to be blunt: I don't think you're understanding IAS as well as you think you are. You have interesting theories, but I would strongly recmomend that you take them to the Isle of the Nameless, test them out on the various AL dummies, the Master of Damage, and see what kind of conclusions you come up with.

Jaigoda · Oct 25, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Right, forgot to put in vamp, 15^50, crits, etc... But still, I'm talking about PvE, where O-D-O-D combos are pretty weak, unless used with AP. Also, if you were to bring something like, say, Signet of Toxic Shock (or any damaging non-attack skill) instead of Flurry, you'd come out with a lot more damage. If it actually shortened the amount of time it too to do a MS-DB loop, I might actually recommend it, but the fact is, it does pretty much nothing to increasing the rate of which you pump out DB. Of course, I'm talking about a PvE MBlossom 'sin, PvP's a whole different story, as since 'sins are more spike based, and the reduced time helps get it in faster. But for PvE, MBlossom (and AP and maybe Crit Axe/Scythe) is pretty much the only truly viable build to run.

Sqube · Oct 25, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

But now, Jaigoda, you're changing the premise. You just said that Flurry was worthless on its own. You didn't say it was worthless because you could bring other skills. Now we're starting to enter the realm of opinion and personal preference, the calculations become more long-term and probably more complicated than I'm willing to invest time into. If you're talking about taking an alternative skill, it's a whole new discussion.

And MBlossom is hardly the only viable PvE build. It's a solid default when you don't know/trust the capabilities of your team members, but if you're confident in your teammates, you can run anything.

I've run Critical Agility, GPS, Moebius, 4 duals, and a rez. And nobody died. There are options.