Curse

LaserLight · Oct 15, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Oiy vay…Holy Trinity thinking strikes again.

”Warriors tank. Elementalists nuke. Monks heal. EVERYTHING ELSE MUST GO AWAY.” Ye know, I swear it’s that kind of total male cow dung that makes this game such a pain to play with any sort of PuG. Ye know, sometimes unconventional builds work a bit better than people give credit for. And I rather enjoy the thought of walking into a PvE outpost, seeing an Elementalist, and not knowing for an absolute fact that it’s based solely on 16 Fire Magic and Searing Flames -_-

Anyways. Rather than bitch, perhaps ye can simply state that going with a non-Wikibuild makes it harder to group and actually try and help? EleScythe build going for a combination of survival and pressure damage in a PvE/lower-end PvP setup. Lessee…

I think you’re going the wrong way with it, honestly. Yeah, the first build didn’t have near enough offense, but recent ones have sort of forgotten the fact that they’re supposed to be swinging a scythe. Ye have one or two supporting scythe skills and mostly a lot of weird PBAoE spells. To me at least, it needs to mesh better or ye may as well just bring a Totem Axe. As well, long-duration enchantments don’t help a ton with Mystic Regen if they get stripped. It’s best with Mystic Regen to find another fairly short-recharge enchant to help put some regen back on if it all gets stripped. Lessee…ye mentioned ye liked Water as well as Earth, so after a bit of research we have:

11 Scythe
9 +1 +3 Fire
8 Earth Prayers
8 +1 Energy Storage

Mystic Sweep
Reaper’s Sweep [E]
Flame Djinn’s Haste
Inferno
Conjure Flame
Mystic Regeneration
Mirage Cloak
Vital Boon

No, I do not know how to embed a skillbar into my post. Bite me.

Anyways. Mystic Sweep should never have come off the build as far as I’m concerned. That skill goes hand in hand with Mystic Regen builds. I arranged the Enchantments to help you defend yourself while the PBAoE Fire and scythe skills do the punching. In a lot of cases, your flame attacks and a Mystic Sweep or two will put enemies below 50% health right off, letting you hit them with Reaper’s Sweep for the Deep Wound. After that things slow down a bit, but you shouldn’t need to do all the killing anyways. Vital Boon and Mirage Cloak help keep you alive, and both come up PDQ if stripped, alongside Mystic Regen. Conjure Flame for more damage and another booster for Regen.

If I were running EleScythe, this is how I’d do it meself. May not be optimal, may be hard finding a group…but ye know, it looks like a lot of fun. And certainly has a lot more style than the average Searing Flamer. Do make sure to get those Destroyer Gauntlets and that scythe, man!

Rikimaru · Oct 15, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Thanks for the help.
I've definitely gone a little too far with ele attacks. I had to make sure that the build could work better as an E/D than a D/E, but your post made me realize that I went too far in the other direction and made something that could be done better or equal without the scythe at all. I've got a real thin line to walk with this build, but your suggestion of using Mystic Sweep really helps, I'll see if it works better than Phoenix (which I think it will) once I get the new skills.

And the build you gave me looks good on paper, but a lot of dervish primary builds are probably more effective.
I think the best way for me to give this build real purpose is to give it just enough defense to survive (which I've already achieved with Conviction + Mystic Regeneration) and put the rest of the focus into giving it crazy damage to blast everyone in melee range to hell.
I'll try out your build too though, because it does look good. In the one I made, I have to replace Fire Attunement now, and Vital Boon looks like it might actually be a good one to use.

Savage Striker · Oct 15, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

SF build works for me fine...

rick1027 · Oct 15, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Oiy vay…Holy Trinity thinking strikes again.

”Warriors tank. Elementalists nuke. Monks heal. EVERYTHING ELSE MUST GO AWAY.” Ye know, I swear it’s that kind of total male cow dung that makes this game such a pain to play with any sort of PuG. Ye know, sometimes unconventional builds work a bit better than people give credit for. And I rather enjoy the thought of walking into a PvE outpost, seeing an Elementalist, and not knowing for an absolute fact that it’s based solely on 16 Fire Magic and Searing Flames -_-

Anyways. Rather than bitch, perhaps ye can simply state that going with a non-Wikibuild makes it harder to group and actually try and help? EleScythe build going for a combination of survival and pressure damage in a PvE/lower-end PvP setup. Lessee…

I think you’re going the wrong way with it, honestly. Yeah, the first build didn’t have near enough offense, but recent ones have sort of forgotten the fact that they’re supposed to be swinging a scythe. Ye have one or two supporting scythe skills and mostly a lot of weird PBAoE spells. To me at least, it needs to mesh better or ye may as well just bring a Totem Axe. As well, long-duration enchantments don’t help a ton with Mystic Regen if they get stripped. It’s best with Mystic Regen to find another fairly short-recharge enchant to help put some regen back on if it all gets stripped. Lessee…ye mentioned ye liked Water as well as Earth, so after a bit of research we have:

11 Scythe
9 +1 +3 Fire
8 Earth Prayers
8 +1 Energy Storage

Mystic Sweep
Reaper’s Sweep [E]
Flame Djinn’s Haste
Inferno
Conjure Flame
Mystic Regeneration
Mirage Cloak
Vital Boon

No, I do not know how to embed a skillbar into my post. Bite me.

Anyways. Mystic Sweep should never have come off the build as far as I’m concerned. That skill goes hand in hand with Mystic Regen builds. I arranged the Enchantments to help you defend yourself while the PBAoE Fire and scythe skills do the punching. In a lot of cases, your flame attacks and a Mystic Sweep or two will put enemies below 50% health right off, letting you hit them with Reaper’s Sweep for the Deep Wound. After that things slow down a bit, but you shouldn’t need to do all the killing anyways. Vital Boon and Mirage Cloak help keep you alive, and both come up PDQ if stripped, alongside Mystic Regen. Conjure Flame for more damage and another booster for Regen.

If I were running EleScythe, this is how I’d do it meself. May not be optimal, may be hard finding a group…but ye know, it looks like a lot of fun. And certainly has a lot more style than the average Searing Flamer. Do make sure to get those Destroyer Gauntlets and that scythe, man!

well i have to say well said this was what i was trying to convey in my first post.i mean you should have stuck with the earth idea i liked it not gonna say its a great build but needed work as in skill selection. now when you put sf in you might as well go sf ele and forget your original thought. im sure when they started with the touch ranger they were getting the same responses although im not crazy about them either doesnt make em wrong

Rikimaru · Oct 15, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

The problem is though that I toyed around with the earth version for a while, and I couldn't get any decent damage from it. I was thinking about using Glyph of Renewal + Sliver Armor, but then the only decent damage I could throw out would require them to target me. I was also thinking about going Earth Magic and Wind Prayers though, with Dwayna's Touch as a heal. Anyone have any ideas how I could get good damage out of that? Zealous Vow would probably be good.
-Edit- Just checked it over again, there really aren't any good earth attacks. If I tried using scythe attacks for damage and earth magic strictly for defense, I can't imagine a dervish primary not being able to do it better.
I think I could actually get some pretty crazy damage out of Wind Prayers + Fire Magic, but the build's survivability would be trash, which would be real bad for a melee.

I've thought through using a warrior secondary a little. Does this look better than the Dervish version?:
[skill]Star Burst[/skill] [skill]Barbarous Slice[/skill] [skill]Flame Djinn's Haste[/skill] [skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill]--[skill]Flail[/skill]or[skill]Flurry[/skill]--[skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Bonetti's Defense[/skill] [skill]Conjure Flame[/skill]
The stat's would be the same, but with tactics instead of earth prayers and swordsmanship instead of scythe mastery.

AlienFromBeyond · Oct 16, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

I'm still not getting the point of this. What do you do that a Dragon Slash or Triple Chop Warrior can't do better?

Coloneh · Oct 16, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

nothing. he just wants to be "special"

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

For the love of hell, do you people have anything better to do with your time?

Well I tried out the warrior build I posted earlier. I don't have Star Burst yet, and although the survivability isn't that great, it's much better than you'd think. Without Star Burst, it has roughly 70 DPS including the -10 degeneration (the degeneration is 20 of that DPS), is that good?
The great thing about both Star Burst and Flame Djinn's Haste is that neither of them have an aftercast and they both have fast cast times, so you can throw them out whenever you want without disrupting your sword swinging.

AlienFromBeyond · Oct 16, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

For the love of hell, do you people have anything better to do with your time?

Hey there, no need to get snappy. First time I posted in the thread, and I asked an honest question. What does your build do that other builds don't do better? Because if you don't have a good answer, then you shouldn't run the build. Trying to be unique doesn't mean you're useful.

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Well I haven't tried it out in many real PvP fights yet, and I still don't have the elite for it, but so far it seems to work much like a dagger assassin, even having the ability to get in and out quickly when necessary because of Flame Djinn's Haste. And unlike most dagger builds, the damage can be kept up constantly rather than throwing out a quick spike and waiting for the recharge.
Problem is though, I'm pretty sure there are assassin builds that are better than it. I'm just gonna have to finish it and test it out more.
Anyways, this is at least on par with many other builds people often use from what I've seen so far (not the cookie-cutters), but apparently people don't care about being able to get exactly the same effect with a different style. Some people don't like the class or weapon or just the style of play required of the original builds.

Sorry if my comment seemed excessive. I wouldn't have even said it if Coloneh didn't tack on to it, it was directed mostly at him.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 16, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Cookie cutters exist for a reason. They are tried and true builds that make an excellent starting point for making your own builds. Dismissing them out of hand is only doing yourself a disservice.
I can only think of four combos for a melee ele that make any sort of sense.

1)Conjure flame + mark of rodgort - I've actually played this in RA, and it's good for laughs. However, it does absolutely nothing that a horrible flare spamming ele with mark can't do better.

2) Zealous scythe - You'll easily hit the max damage on it, but then what? The rest of your scythe attacks are weak, you have energy management issues, and you do nothing a dervish or point blank AoE ele can't do better

3)Hammer + aftershock - Entertaining, does great damage, and actually had a brief stint in PvP. However, there are now much better ways to compress large amounts of damage into a small period of time like...

4)Shock + falling spider - I've seen/played these in RA, and they can actually score a quick kill. Sadly, they have zero survivability, and tend to run out of steam after around a minute or so.

Yes, this build is on par with other terrible builds play with, that doesn't mean you should hamstring yourself just because other people are bad at the game.

Starburst eles are typically used for quick AoE spikes, using [skill]glyph of sacrifice[/skill][skill]meteor shower[/skill][skill]death's charge[/skill][skill]bed of coals[/skill][skill]star burst[/skill] in that order. If you're not using the fast activation time to compress a large amount of damage into a small time frame, there's no reason not to run more pressure oriented AoE builds - like SF, or rodgort's invocation spam.

Now, if this is just about making guy who can't dance with an overfondness for topcoats swing around a hunk of metal, again, you can't expect anyone to give your build an ounce of respect or constructive criticism. I'm a firm believer that you should first look at what's effective, and then pick which effective style suits you the best.

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

I actually have been trying to look over all the great dervish, warrior and elementalist builds to try to play off whatever it is that makes them great, but it's kinda hard 'cause Pvxwiki has a lot of crap builds and no search based on ranking that I know of

And my ele doesn't look nearly as bad as your picturing it. Black+Red Istani jacket, destroyer gloves and weapon, black sunspear pants and boots

LaserLight · Oct 16, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Why is it so hard to understand?

The man wants an Elementalist build that incorporates a scythe. He's stated that it's mostly a PvE/lower-ene PvP build. He's not bringing it to GvG or Hero's Ascent or any of those other elitist zones that can't tolerate something that didn't come directly off the cookie sheet. Why is it that the man must play Searing Flames, or any of the other no-style, over-paidsexed Elementalist build that every no-talent idiot in this game gets straight off a Wiki and decides they're God with?

I'm all for originality for the sake of originality. If your build can do its job acceptably, then nobody should give snot one that a Dragon Slasher or a Triple Chopper or a teleporting PBAoE El can supposedly do it better. In the arenas this particular EleScythe is destined for, I don't care. And frankly, the PvE A.I. doesn't either, and AB often rewards people who bring something the people therein haven't seen ten thousand times and are well-prepared to deal with.

If you lot can't accept anything but a build directly from the local Mrs. Fields, then just don't invite him. But me? I'd rather have Rikimaru here, who's pondered his build for a good while and fiddled with it, and many variants of it, trying to get the most effective mix for what he wants, than some numbskull SF spammer who, for the most part, has no idea what he's doing. Which is half the SF Els you see hanging around in PvE districts or AB startpoints.

Rikimaru: Ignore these folks. No, yer EleScythe isn't going to win a top-level GvG game, but who gives a care. As so few remember, the point of the game is to have fun, and running a good build you don't actually like is stupid. Heh, just remember that at least one guy out in the Internet believes that, eh? Maybe we should meet up sometime when ye're done, ye can show me how it turned out in person.

AlienFromBeyond · Oct 16, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

I'm all for originality for the sake of originality.

And this is where the problem lies. Many people have expressed that there not, and have tried to give better builds as a result. The end product is a thread that was bound for flaming and insults.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

If your build can do its job acceptably, then nobody should give snot one that a Dragon Slasher or a Triple Chopper or a teleporting PBAoE El can supposedly do it better.

It's not supposedly, that is the way it is.

Quote:

If you lot can't accept anything but a build directly from the local Mrs. Fields, then just don't invite him. But me? I'd rather have Rikimaru here, who's pondered his build for a good while and fiddled with it, and many variants of it, trying to get the most effective mix for what he wants, than some numbskull SF spammer who, for the most part, has no idea what he's doing. Which is half the SF Els you see hanging around in PvE districts or AB startpoints.

Have fun with that, I'll run a good build and continue to rack up Mastery of the North Points to go with my Legendary Guardian.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 16, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

He's not bringing it to GvG or Hero's Ascent or any of those other elitist zones that can't tolerate something that didn't come directly off the cookie sheet.

You stubbornly insist on bringing your bad build everywhere and refuse to change it for others, and that makes everyone else an elitist?

Oh, ok, that makes sense,

LaserLight · Oct 16, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Hm hm, yell at me all ye want, guys. But me? I don't enjoy playing the exact same build as fifty thousand other Guild Wars players just because it's expected of me. Searing Flames, Moebius Blossom, Apply/Burning Rangers, all those things that everyone else assumes are the only builds that work in all of Guild Wars.

I've cleared two campaigns and an expansion with my 'bad' Assassin's Promise build, save for times when Shiro needed killing. I'd have Prophecies with it too except I can't stand Prophecies' long, boring, overdone campaign setting. I use a similar sort of build in Alliance Battles and other disorganized PvP, to great effect. Just because it isn't a Mrs. Fields build with extra chocolate chips does not automatically mean any specific build is too horrid for contemplation.

As for "We're just trying to help him make a better build", doesn't fly. here, I'll sum up all your general advice in one paragraph:

"Your build sucks. No spellcaster should ever use a melee weapon. here, use this Wikibuild instead. It's 1337, and will pwn your stupid Scythe build in all known ways. Until you use the same Wikibuilds we do, you will get no respect as a Guild Wars player."

Hm hm...not the message I tend to associate with most anyone other than elitist jerks, guys.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 16, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

I've cleared two campaigns and an expansion with my 'bad' Assassin's Promise build,

ORLY?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

No spellcaster should ever use a melee weapon. here, use this Wikibuild instead. It's 1337, and will pwn your stupid Scythe build in all known ways. Until you use the same Wikibuilds we do, you will get no respect as a Guild Wars player."

Pics or it didn't happen. Did you actually read this thread?

EDIT: Just for posterity

From the "worst build you've ever seen" thread.

LightningHell · Oct 16, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

I'm all for originality for the sake of originality.

He can be original for all he wants, but that isn't going to stop his build from sucking. Originality isn't really going to win a game for you. We aren't saying "Don't use this build because it sucks", but rather "You can use this build, but be aware that you'll perform less optimally than if you were using a standard build".

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Ok, the ranking system means nothing on Pvxwiki

This http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Agonizing_Conjure is rated "good". The E/W build I quickly threw together several posts up is way better than that, and that probably isn't very good (so far I've tested it on a Warrior that I have no idea how good he was that I kicked the crap out of, and a Dervish who mopped the floor with me).

This is gonna make things real hard to figure out what makes a good damage warrior.
The ele builds were no help on there. Most of the fire builds, highly-rated or not, basically just consisted of random high-damage low-cast-time spells being spammed like crazy. And whenever one has a high reset? Glyph of Renewal/Echo!; a monkey could've made them...
-Edit- Now that I think of it, maybe that's what makes a good fire ele?

This one's real interesting http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Shock_Axe
I think it's a typical cookie-cutter shock warrior. But compared to my E/W build above, it has worse survivability, I'm pretty sure it has at least slightly worse damage, but it has knockdown and deep wound.
A lot of warrior damage builds use frenzy (huge surprise to me), which sets the defense only a few points above my E/W build, and just like my build, the only form of healing they usually have is Healing Signet. Of course, they can also take off frenzy for some temporary boost in defense... They probably do that before using Healing Signet, but unless I'm fighting a caster, that's what I can use Bonetti's Defense for, since it doesn't go away 'till after the skill is finished being cast.

Holy crap, I have to be missing something; http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/D_Rending_Touch_Axe
"Excellent" build with frenzy and no self heal...

One last one I just found http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Conjure_Cripslash
Seriously, what am I missing here? These can't possibly be "Excellent" builds.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 16, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Eh, you're flipping through GvG builds, so they don't really need a self heal. Those builds are meant to fight at the flagstand with a monk behind them.

Second, frenzy is good because it's fairly simple to cancel it with rush if you take damage (For PvP only).

Third, all three of those can perform a very nasty spike, and definitely outdamage your build.

Fourth, they all incorporate a snare/speed boost, so they'll be able to deal their damage much more consistently than your build.
I'll agree with you that the wiki rating system is useless, though, and that pretty much any fire build with echo/renewal/etc. is probably quite bad.