Curse

BlackSephir · Nov 21, 2007, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Yes, I know it's hard to believe that these 2 things can have something in common but turns out they have. Really.

Ok, main point- I've seen a lot of crap on Guru, starting from 'pve is harder than pvp', through 'assassins don't require skill to play' and so on. I don't care if you think HoTO was imbalanced before nerf. The point is- if you think that HoTO is 'balanced' now- you simply don't know what you're talking about.
What's a good way to see if a skill is balanced? Compare it to another similiar skill.
Today, our guests are *budubudu* Horns of The Ox and *dundundunnnn* Bull's Strike!
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Horns_of_the_Ox
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Strike
So, let's start!
HoTO- requires off-hand, BS is your typical meele attack- score for BS
HoTO has 2s longer recharge- score for BS
Your wiki shock axe build has 13 Strength, that means +27 damage from BS.
Your wiki sp sin (dead now) has 13 dagger mastery, that means...
+10dmg x 2... So, +20. Despite the fact that it's dual attack, it hits for less.
Another score for BS.
Conditionality- debatable, but I think BS' condition is easier to meet than HoTO's- the chances of monk trying to kite while you're pwning his face with an axe are very high. But hey, it may be my loss, let's say it's a draw.
Still- 3 for BS, 0 for HoTO.
So what? Nerf BS? Because it's purpose, like many HoTO-haters would say, is not damage, but kd? No, just shows how full of s**t you are.
What will it be in next nerf? Twisting Fangs don't do +dmg anymore? "Cause it's purpose is Bleed and DW"?

No. I don't want to nerf BS. I think it's perfectly fine as it is. Pre-nerf HoTO was fine too.
Just makes me wonder who the hell invented this whole "this skill does that so it doesn't have to have +dmg" on assassins- the class which basically sacrificed defense (y, halo thar 70AL) to make more damage.

Frank Dudenstein · Nov 21, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Your comparison is not valid because the two professions operate completely differently.

HotO is/was part of some on-demand combos that could insta-kill in 5 seconds or less ... adding knockdowns to that combo (2 with trampling ox) is just not right.

Bulls strike is not like this ... it is designed to disrupt defenses and punish kiting ... an awesomely balanced skill IMO ... even combined with Evisc/Exe/Agonizing it is not enough to kill a target ... not to mention that combo takes considerable preparation and more skill to execute.

Whether the nerf to HotO was right or not is debatable ... but as long as assassins are designed to have combos that can kill in under 5 seconds.. those combos should never be viable with 2 knockdowns .. and 1 is pushing it....

BTW: it is very easy to miss the knockdown with Bulls Strike ... even top warriors miss regularly ..... however an SP assassin would have to be braindead to miss with HotO.... HotO even gets 2 chances to bypass block!

LightningHell · Nov 21, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yes, I know it's hard to believe that these 2 things can have something in common but turns out they have. Really.

Ok, main point- I've seen a lot of crap on Guru, starting from 'pve is harder than pvp', through 'assassins don't require skill to play' and so on. I don't care if you think HoTO was imbalanced before nerf. The point is- if you think that HoTO is 'balanced' now- you simply don't know what you're talking about.
What's a good way to see if a skill is balanced? Compare it to another similiar skill.
Today, our guests are *budubudu* Horns of The Ox and *dundundunnnn* Bull's Strike!
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Horns_of_the_Ox
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Strike
So, let's start!
HoTO- requires off-hand, BS is your typical meele attack- score for BS
HoTO has 2s longer recharge- score for BS
Your wiki shock axe build has 13 Strength, that means +27 damage from BS.
Your wiki sp sin (dead now) has 13 dagger mastery, that means...
+10dmg x 2... So, +20. Despite the fact that it's dual attack, it hits for less.
Another score for BS.
Conditionality- debatable, but I think BS' condition is easier to meet than HoTO's- the chances of monk trying to kite while you're pwning his face with an axe are very high. But hey, it may be my loss, let's say it's a draw.
Still- 3 for BS, 0 for HoTO.
So what? Nerf BS? Because it's purpose, like many HoTO-haters would say, is not damage, but kd? No, just shows how full of s**t you are.
What will it be in next nerf? Twisting Fangs don't do +dmg anymore? "Cause it's purpose is Bleed and DW"?

No. I don't want to nerf BS. I think it's perfectly fine as it is. Pre-nerf HoTO was fine too.
Just makes me wonder who the hell invented this whole "this skill does that so it doesn't have to have +dmg" on assassins- the class which basically sacrificed defense (y, halo thar 70AL) to make more damage.

Difference being HotO being a problem for Assassins because they basically kicked the balls of somebody on their ass, and Warriors not having an omgwtfinstagib combo?

BlackSephir · Nov 21, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

HotO is/was part of some on-demand combos that could insta-kill in 5 seconds or less ...

Yeah, "was". SP spike ended (or so did AN believe) with the nerf of BLS. What was the point of nerfing HoTO then?
Of course not mentioning the fact that SP sins still exist, they're just using different skills now.

Quote:

Whether the nerf to HotO was right or not is debatable ... but as long as assassins are designed to have combos that can kill in under 5 seconds.. those combos should never be viable with 2 knockdowns .. and 1 is pushing it....

Well, the shocker, they still have. But that's another tale, in different thread and it's named "Make Shadow Prison unusable with IAS stances".

Quote:

however an SP assassin would have to be braindead to miss with HotO.... HotO even gets 2 chances to bypass block!

Despite the fact that most of the SP sins ARE braindead... And that part with 2 chances? Yeah, kinda advantage of dual attacks.

Quote:

Difference being HotO being a problem for Assassins because they basically kicked the balls of somebody on their ass, and Warriors not having an omgwtfinstagib combo?

And what did HoTO nerf change with omwtfinsagib combo? Besides of course, made HoTO less useful? I'm all for removing SP sins "4-5secs, you die, hahah", I'm against stupid, pointless nerfs that basically do nothing with the problem- i.e. SP sins, right?

LightningHell · Nov 21, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

And what did HoTO nerf change with omwtfinsagib combo? Besides of course, made HoTO less useful? I'm all for removing SP sins "4-5secs, you die, hahah", I'm against stupid, pointless nerfs that basically do nothing with the problem- i.e. SP sins, right?

My guess would be that it was to reduce the amount of KD's in an already quick killing combo, since you already have to play pretty much perfectly to get away from a reasonable sin spike alive.

In sorts it's a blanket nerf.

Yanman.be · Nov 21, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Point for hoto: hitting twice means you have more chance of hitting through guardian and still kd'ing.

*edit*

I'd be happy to have a skill like hoto that always kd's, but does not deal damage...

Saphatorael · Nov 21, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Your comparison is not valid because the two professions operate completely differently.

That is all that had to be said.

/requesting to lock this thread.

If you'd compare skills, stick to the same profession. Of course you can compare Deep Freeze to Shared Burden and conclude that the latter is worthless, since they're both snares, but this time, the OP is just comparing a melee attack, to a Dual Attack, which are completely different mechanics.

I can also start comparing retardedly, such as Healing Breeze vs Aura of Restoration: Healing Breeze is better because it heals for more when spammed! :-/

X Cytherea X · Nov 21, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Yeah, "was". SP spike ended (or so did AN believe) with the nerf of BLS. What was the point of nerfing HoTO then?

so true. with BLS gone, the nerfs to HotO and Trampling Ox were unnecessary. just adding insult to injury. like killing a puppy AND THEN kicking it AND then pissing on it. which is overkill cuz it's already dead!

ACreator · Nov 21, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

well but that is u yanman...

I prefer to have a skill that may not KD and make me fail some combos, but that has a chance to actualy "instakill" my foe..

Bowstring Badass · Nov 21, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

They should not have nerfed down the damage as much as they did. They should have nerfed it down to trampling ox dmg imo...

LightningHell · Nov 21, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

so true. with BLS gone, the nerfs to HotO and Trampling Ox were unnecessary. just adding insult to injury. like killing a puppy AND THEN kicking it AND then pissing on it. which is overkill cuz it's already dead!

As suggested earlier, maybe it was to stop 'sins to be able to kick people on their ass, as them kicking people not on their ass is powerful enough.

Turtle222 · Nov 21, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

/disagree with poster

You are comparing two skills on different levels... each has a different purpose

tbh a KD skill without any damage would still make it on my skill bar...

i use hoto not to just kd kiters...but also stop that ele from casting his powerfull spells...now i cant do that with BS can i

Omniclasm · Nov 21, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Hitting a moving foe.

Hitting a foe that is alone.

One requires skill....one requires rolling your face on the keyboard.

Cloud5646 · Nov 21, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Everyone knows all they gotta do is nerf IAS but no... they are just too proud and won't hear the community before they completly kill the class trying to nerf a single build.

Bowstring Badass · Nov 21, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud5646

Everyone knows all they gotta do is nerf IAS but no... they are just too proud and won't hear the community before they completly kill the class trying to nerf a single build.

Watch them rebuff sins in like 3 months. roflmao

BlackSephir · Nov 21, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

/requesting to lock this thread.

Hahah, yeah, you're funny.

Quote:

/disagree with poster

You are comparing two skills on different levels... each has a different purpose

That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?

Bowstring Badass · Nov 21, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?

It is mainly for kd'ing kiters or the flag runner + it's a warrior they have like 30 or so skills that do +30 dmg.

Saphatorael · Nov 21, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Hahah, yeah, you're funny.

no u

Quote:

That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?

It's both a KD yes... but I've yet to see an Assassin use Bull's Strike midspike...

BlackSephir · Nov 21, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

It's both a KD yes... but I've yet to see an Assassin use Bull's Strike midspike...

Ah, you don't get it, good...

Ok, how about this.
Explain to me, how is it that warriors, balanced in defense and offense, can have skills like BS with nice +dmg, not so conditional KD as HoTO, but when Assassin, class which devotes offense over defense, can not?

Saphatorael · Nov 21, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Ah, you don't get it, good...

Ok, how about this.
Explain to me, how is it that warriors, balanced in defense and offense, can have skills like BS with nice +dmg, not so conditional KD as HoTO, but when Assassin, class which devotes offense over defense, can not?

Because Warriors don't inherently have the ability to shadow step. Of course this is bypassed by the use of secondaries, but Izzy gave AoD and SP a 10e cost for a reason.

Also, Assassins can use HotO midspike to knock down their target.
Have you ever seen a Warrior do Shock -> Eviscerate -> Bull's Strike -> Executioner's Strike, to use a popular Warrior build... I think not.