Curse

BlackSephir · Nov 19, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz Thom

hey mods, since this is obviously a PvP post can we get it moved plz? This is campfire not glad arena

Funny peoples at glad arena don't want to talk about sins D:
Cause, y'know, sins r broken n shitz
Good thing they're not retarded unlike somebody, amirite?

Saphatorael · Nov 19, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

more idiocy:
if you dont notice it you need to get your eyes checked. and what if it doesnt kd, you would want it to at least do damage amirite?

Now now, why the hostile tone?
And why am I an idiot for not noticing a nerf? It seems to me, all you want to do is rant about the recent nerf, when it is still a fine skill.
If it doesn't kd, you suck at picking your targets.

I STILL have not noticed a decline in efficiency in my builds using HotO. I can't be considered an idiot for that, for I'm still able to kill stuff quite easily. You however, thinking your own 'experience' provides the only truth, leaving all others their experiences to the 'lies' section...

fireflyry · Nov 19, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Ummm...the HotO nerf has been the main point of contention and complaint out of the whole update from what I've observed since it came in.

It's the one thing just about everyone, including those with other mains, has said "Ummm....WTF??" to.

He's merely observed a clearly obvious trend of criticism and puzzlement regarding the one skill nerf.

Saying the nerf makes no difference to damage output in general?

Uhhh...ok.

Saphatorael · Nov 19, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Ummm...the HotO nerf has been the main point of contention and complaint out of the whole update from what I've observed since it came in.

It's the one thing just about everyone, including those with other mains, has said "Ummm....WTF??" to.

He's merely observed a clearly obvious trend of criticism and puzzlement regarding the one skill nerf.

Saying the nerf makes no difference to damage output in general?

Uhhh...ok.

The nerf does of course make a difference to damage output. But I've not really noticed it.

Multiple possible reasons for this one:
1. Read the post above yours. Picking weak targets properly nullifies the need for that +damage, timing it when they're in a bad position and weakened enough for a spike.
2. My builds just deal a bit more damage
3. Equipment, though I doubt it's that.

It's likely the first.

So, apparantly loads of people here just pick a random target that's at full health and spike away (and fail at it). Assassin may be easy, people, but at least try to think a bit before you spike!

fireflyry · Nov 19, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I think you missed the point again.

The damage output of the recent nerf is totally relevant.

I too have builds which can bypass the nerf and still do a good job at taking out a target yet to argue that the nerf to the damage output of HotO was negligible and hence is merely based on target choice since is incorrect imo.

Do the math and notice the trends and flow down effects it has had on build effectiveness to the majority and the comments from the community as a result.

Personally I find the argument of needing better target choice to be off-tangent to the complaints and comments regarding the nerf.

It's not about how you have adapted or continued your individual play style and builds post-nerf, it's about the justification as to why the skill was nerfed in the first place and it's effects to the class and community as a whole.

If it's a non-issue for you that's all good but it's logic and math that to others it's worthy of comment and discussion.

Saphatorael · Nov 19, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Or in other words, you (and the community?) prefer Build Wars over player skill.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 19, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

The skill was nerfed because you can't have a knockdown during instagib that does 4857485435 damage.

Its simple. I think YOU are the one missing the point.

craigrs84 · Nov 20, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

this skill was only overpowered in the SP build when used with an IAS.

X Cytherea X · Nov 20, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

ok so.. if you pick weakened, isolated targets, you can bypass the nerf, wtf?

whereas before, your choice of targets you could likely kill was wider!

i immediately noticed the damage difference testing it on 60al dummies. hoto currently hits for mid-30s while before it hit for high-40s. trampling used to be 70ish now it's 50ish. more damage is always good... we're assassins ffs!

Saphatorael · Nov 20, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

ok so.. if you pick weakened, isolated targets, you can bypass the nerf, wtf?

whereas before, your choice of targets you could likely kill was wider!

Sure, I always go for full health, pre-protted Warriors first. If they're dead, the monks have nothing to heal anymore, rendering them useless to their team!

DDL · Nov 20, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Sure, I always go for full health, pre-protted Warriors first. If they're dead, the monks have nothing to heal anymore, rendering them useless to their team!

By your argument, therefore, a team comprised entirely of prot-specced wammos would leave you absolutely nothing to attack, at all.

Requiring people to be more selective in their target choice may well encourage player skill, but it also greatly reduces flexibility: simply put, anything that reduces damage output is BAD.

After all, your argument could be applied (if taken to its logical extreme) to a state where all assassin skills caused no extra damage at all. Sure, you can only spike someone on 40 health or lower, but hey: you just have to be skillful enough to pick the right target at the right time: those 40hp folks'll be along any minute now!

Bobby2 · Nov 20, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

By your argument, therefore, a team comprised entirely of prot-specced wammos would leave you absolutely nothing to attack, at all.

Requiring people to be more selective in their target choice may well encourage player skill, but it also greatly reduces flexibility: simply put, anything that reduces damage output is BAD.

After all, your argument could be applied (if taken to its logical extreme) to a state where all assassin skills caused no extra damage at all. Sure, you can only spike someone on 40 health or lower, but hey: you just have to be skillful enough to pick the right target at the right time: those 40hp folks'll be along any minute now!

*applauds*

Saphatorael · Nov 20, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

By your argument, therefore, a team comprised entirely of prot-specced wammos would leave you absolutely nothing to attack, at all.

Requiring people to be more selective in their target choice may well encourage player skill, but it also greatly reduces flexibility: simply put, anything that reduces damage output is BAD.

After all, your argument could be applied (if taken to its logical extreme) to a state where all assassin skills caused no extra damage at all. Sure, you can only spike someone on 40 health or lower, but hey: you just have to be skillful enough to pick the right target at the right time: those 40hp folks'll be along any minute now!

... Nice going, you failed to see some sarcasm there.

...And way to generalize my statement.

My statements are about HotO, and how little the nerf matters if you play it right.

Check the Assassin skills. Notice how loads of them have + damage.
Those aren't gone or lowered.
Slippery Slope fallacies won't work here, you said it yourself that you're using a logical extreme. But as the state of the game is right now, There is no extreme. No extreme overpoweredness, no extreme uselessness as you are trying to use (and failing at it) for a counterargument.

Izzy nerfed it because he found it was too strong in certain builds. To promote skillful play (as in, going for the right targets at the right time, which I'm advocating for), he lowered the damage. The skill an sich may be seen as useless by some, but I still see its strength: a kd and a tiny damage boost in my spike. That's all it ever was, not a 'useless skill that has a hard-to-fulfill condition and shit +damage' as most people think it is now.

The + damage is there, because Assassins have weak martial weapons. Assassin skills will ALWAYS have bonus damage. Some will just have more, but with a drawback or other requirement (e.g. Temple Strike's high cost and long recharge, or Golden Phoenix's Strike's Enchantment requirement, Falling Spider's KD), or less, but with an added effect (Critical Strike, Falling Spider again).

Izzy won't get rid of those. The main effect of HotO is the knockdown, and it still serves that purpose and has a use, some people just fail to see its true strength. I'd probably still use it if it didn't have bonus damage.

If you want + damage, go for Death Blossom/Blades of Steel/... . No conditional KD, but it's got plenty of damage an sich.

And as for your 'flexibility' argument... Assassins were made to spike. 'Get in, kill your target, get out.'
Exception to the rule would be Moebius Sins (cf. PvE) or Locust's Fury sins.
If you want to be flexible, play a Warrior or Dervish. They've got better self heals, and are more capable of true pressure.

*demands applause*

Yanman.be · Nov 20, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

/applauds to Saph's ability to post a wall of text.

DDL · Nov 20, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Apologies: I was being a trifle more ascerbic than I perhaps intended, but my essential point stands.

As you note, loads of assassin skills have + damage, and the majority of those have quite NICE + damage.

Until recently, HoTO was one of those "nice + damage" skills, now it isn't.

Arguing that reducing the damage encourages more skillful play still doesn't get around the fact that the damage has been reduced. And that's a bad thing. After all, you get a knockdown, sure. But it's a DUAL attack. Sure, there are situations where hitting someone with two knockdowns will work where a single KD won't, but these are rare (right?).

Since KDs are deliberately set up to be difficult to achieve, they made it dual (so you couldn't go straight into it) and ALSO made it conditional on surrounding foes. Ultimately though, you don't really need TWO knockdowns in a single attack: you really want to have a bit more damage on your dual attacks because it IS more effort getting to that point.

If you think that it's fine as it is, would you be similarly happy if they lowered the damage on twisting fangs? After all, you still get a deep wound, right?

You'd just have to be more skillful in target selection.

The key problem is this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Izzy nerfed it because he found it was too strong in certain builds.

Certain builds. For all the people that WEREN'T using those particular builds, a highly useful skill just got hobbled for no good reason. Hence the irritation.

As a lot of people have pointed out, it wouldn't be quite so bad if the nerf wasn't so severe (so hopefully it'll get a slight damage boost sometime in future).

And finally, just because it's funny:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

There is no extreme. No extreme overpoweredness, no extreme uselessness as you are trying to use (and failing at it) for a counterargument.

Um: [skill]Wastrel's Collapse[/skill]

BlackSephir · Nov 20, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Izzy nerfed it because he found it was too strong in certain builds.

Quote:

builds

Quote:

builds

God damn plural
Now, let's play a little game
I'll name 1 build where HoTO was 'overpowered', you name other, also with overpowered HoTO
Ready? Go!
Shadow Prison Sin

@DDL, nice job pwning him with Wastrel's ;d

Saphatorael · Nov 20, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

As you note, loads of assassin skills have + damage, and the majority of those have quite NICE + damage.

Until recently, HoTO was one of those "nice + damage" skills, now it isn't.

Arguing that reducing the damage encourages more skillful play still doesn't get around the fact that the damage has been reduced. And that's a bad thing. After all, you get a knockdown, sure. But it's a DUAL attack. Sure, there are situations where hitting someone with two knockdowns will work where a single KD won't, but these are rare (right?).

... Are you implying that HotO gives a double KD?
The fact that it knocks down your target (given the right circumstances) is strong enough, since the dual attack implies that you already get one more hit in automatically, and usually one normal attack or the next attack skill.

Quote:

Since KDs are deliberately set up to be difficult to achieve, they made it dual (so you couldn't go straight into it) and ALSO made it conditional on surrounding foes. Ultimately though, you don't really need TWO knockdowns in a single attack: you really want to have a bit more damage on your dual attacks because it IS more effort getting to that point.

... oh my, you ARE implying that it's 2 knockdowns.
Go use a different skill if you want something that only 'knocks down once' (Shock, Shove, Bull's Strike for all I care, if you want to skip to Falling Spider). If my target somehow gets preprotted in time, the dual attack could still get a hit through, e.g. Guardian, even if the spike fails, you still got that knockdown, which shuts that target down for 2-3 seconds, which can mean a lot in a match. Consider it a semi-reliable way to KD someone during your spike. It depends on your target picking, timing (I'm getting tired of having to repeat this), and maybe a bit of luck when facing a protted target; odds are your spike will fail anyways, but you might as well KD them for annoyance.

If you want more bonus damage, pick another skill. You can't have everything in one skill. It's been made elite, or given a drawback.

Quote:

If you think that it's fine as it is, would you be similarly happy if they lowered the damage on twisting fangs? After all, you still get a deep wound, right?

Nothing wrong with TF having some +damage. If Izzy finds that it needs some +damage to be considered balanced, that's how it is. It IS 10e cost and 15s recharge, after all.

Quote:

You'd just have to be more skillful in target selection.

Yes. Or do you always go for targets you know you can't kill?
Yeah, you MUST be a good Assassin.

Quote:

Certain builds. For all the people that WEREN'T using those particular builds, a highly useful skill just got hobbled for no good reason. Hence the irritation.

As a lot of people have pointed out, it wouldn't be quite so bad if the nerf wasn't so severe (so hopefully it'll get a slight damage boost sometime in future).

Well, I myself hardly use those particular builds: I adapted and created builds to counter theirs, with HotO in there, and they still work/kill, not only against those builds, but of course others as well. As long as you pick your targets well and time it properly.
And it's not that a certain amount of people say that Izzy nerfed something uncalled for, that they're right. See 'Expertise' and 'Soul Reaping' discussions for that matter.

Quote:

And finally, just because it's funny:

Um: [skill]Wastrel's Collapse[/skill]

Haha, you fail at being relevant and getting the point of this discussion.
We're talking about +damage on dagger attacks, and you reference an underpowered Hex. (it's generally regarded upon as underpowered, that's why nobody even uses it. People still use HotO, even after the nerf)

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

God damn plural
Now, let's play a little game
I'll name 1 build where HoTO was 'overpowered', you name other, also with overpowered HoTO
Ready? Go!
Shadow Prison Sin

Oh, ok. I type an 'S' too much. YOU WIN TEH INTERNETZ.
Seriously, if you have no real argument to add, stay the hell out of the discussion. It's the fact that it was a knockdown (Oh lookie, a KD. Why else wouldn't you use it?) with good +damage, combined with IAS. You should be glad Izzy didn't get rid of the KD.

Quote:

@DDL, nice job pwning him with Wastrel's ;d

Nope. He completely missed the point.

EDIT2: I'm getting tired of this. Either get some decent arguments, or stay out. Next time I'll just dot dot dot you and leave you in your need to whine about a perfectly fine skill.

DDL · Nov 20, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Sorry, now I'm super confused. Are you saying it's NOT two knockdowns, or that it is?

Since you seem to be mocking me for suggesting it IS two, but then also saying that the fact it's two is super-useful.

Can't have both, now.

See now guildwiki, for instance:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Horns_of_the_ox

Indicates pretty strongly that if EITHER hit contacts, you get a knockdown (similarly, both hits of twisting fangs potentially give a deep wound). Thus, "theoretically" two knockdowns. Since you can't (as far as I'm aware) knockdown a knocked down foe, only one is really needed. Two is..well, useful in certain circumstances..but a trifle excessive in all other situations.

Look, I can perfectly see where you're coming from: you are correct, this change doesn't OMG RUIN ALL SINS FOR TEH EVAR, but it DOES severely hamper perfectly decent non-SP sin builds, for a specifically SP sin-related reason.

To put it another way, would you be actively annoyed if they decided to ADD damage to one of your favourite attacks?

"Oh god now I don't need as much skill to play! *sobs*"

A lot of your answers are very much along the lines of "well it doesn't affect ME, so it must be fine" which is....a trifle shortsighted, really.

I mean, atrocities in Kosovo affect me not one bit, but I don't think they're "fine" because of that.

(Is that a ludicrous example to use? Yes, yes it is...but you get the idea. Fine for you != fine for other people)

And the wastrel's thing: you never specified it had to be a +damage attack skill...besides, that skill needs more publicity, the poor unwanted thing.

Yanman.be · Nov 20, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

We all know hoto and bls got nerfed because the Yanssassin was overpowered.

BlackSephir · Nov 20, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

We all know hoto and bls got nerfed because the Yanssassin was overpowered.

So if it wouldn't be for Yanman, they wouldn't get nerfed.
Go to hell Yanman and take your builds with u!