Curse

Ekelon · Nov 20, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleshharvest

Shadow Prison
Iron Palm
Tiger Stance
Falling Lotus Strike
Twisting Fangs
Black Spider Strike
Blades of Steel
Rez sig -_-

Thus proving the point that Anet needs to hit Tiger Stance and not BLS.

Bad and fail. Here's the real build.

[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill]Iron Palm[/skill][skill]Tiger Stance[/skill][Falling Lotus Strike][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Spider[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill]

Saphatorael · Nov 20, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Sorry, now I'm super confused. Are you saying it's NOT two knockdowns, or that it is?

Since you seem to be mocking me for suggesting it IS two, but then also saying that the fact it's two is super-useful.

Can't have both, now.

See now guildwiki, for instance:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Horns_of_the_ox

Indicates pretty strongly that if EITHER hit contacts, you get a knockdown (similarly, both hits of twisting fangs potentially give a deep wound). Thus, "theoretically" two knockdowns. Since you can't (as far as I'm aware) knockdown a knocked down foe, only one is really needed. Two is..well, useful in certain circumstances..but a trifle excessive in all other situations.

I interpreted that you said HotO knocks down twice. As in, 2 separate, consecutive KD's. Seemed awkward, but that's what I really read. Some people on these forums are able to really think like that, I'm glad you're actually not one of them...
Anyhoo, the fact that it's a dual, gives you a double chance at kd'ing a foe, even if the first is blocked, you second might hit. Odds are that your spike will fail on a protted target, so you might as well hope for a kd to screw the target up anyways, since killing isn't in it anymore.

Quote:

Look, I can perfectly see where you're coming from: you are correct, this change doesn't OMG RUIN ALL SINS FOR TEH EVAR, but it DOES severely hamper perfectly decent non-SP sin builds, for a specifically SP sin-related reason.

It only hampers non-SP sin builds if people don't know how to run it, or if the build is utter tripe. I'm glad that I've made a few that I know how to run, and are decent enough (though not as good as the old SP sin), the fact that people actually expected to face SP sin and prepare themselves for that, is a plus for my unorthodox build. They don't see my spike coming, and that just increases the odds of getting a clean kill.

Quote:

To put it another way, would you be actively annoyed if they decided to ADD damage to one of your favourite attacks?

"Oh god now I don't need as much skill to play! *sobs*"

... hypothetical inversed counterarguments can't prove anything. I wouldn't mind buffs to my fav skills, but that wouldn't stop me from trying it in other builds and new combo's. That's half of the fun of playing an Assassin. The other half is seeing that it's decent/you're good enough at playing it to get some kills.

Quote:

A lot of your answers are very much along the lines of "well it doesn't affect ME, so it must be fine" which is....a trifle shortsighted, really.

I mean, atrocities in Kosovo affect me not one bit, but I don't think they're "fine" because of that.

(Is that a ludicrous example to use? Yes, yes it is...but you get the idea. Fine for you != fine for other people)

It IS fine with me, because I know how to play the sin properly (apparantly; forgive me for my arrogance, but a fact is a fact, I'm not affected.). Other people who play Assassin,just grab a pvxwiki cookie cutter and enter RA, have no actual idea nor experience on how to play an Assassin best.

Quote:

And the wastrel's thing: you never specified it had to be a +damage attack skill...besides, that skill needs more publicity, the poor unwanted thing.

You were ranting about the HotO damage being lowered and rendering the skill useless. I said that HotO's main strength is the KD, thus it not being worthless. I'd still use it, even if it didn't have any bonus damage. A KD is a KD, which is great during a spike.
Anyways, you finding HotO more or less useless, referring to Wastrel's Collapse as useless with no real connection at all (maybe uselessness, but that's just your opinion), never really meant anything, and wasn't funny.

Oh, and yes, WC needs a buff.

moriz · Nov 20, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

horns was nerfed because any nerf to blades of steel will make it absolutely useless. horns of the ox was the only dual attack that can take a damage hit and still remain viable.

if BoS was nerfed, you'll all be complaining about how it is now a crappy version of death blossom.

fleshharvest · Nov 20, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

Bad and fail. Here's the real build.

[skill]Mark of Instability[/skill][skill]Shadow Prison[/skill][skill]Iron Palm[/skill][skill]Tiger Stance[/skill][Falling Lotus Strike][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Falling Spider[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill]

-_-. The one I posted was for use in RA.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Nov 20, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

It amazes me how much people hate SP sins yet they still like to keep reinventing them.

zknifeh · Nov 20, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Anyways, you finding HotO more or less useless, referring to Wastrel's Collapse as useless with no real connection at all (maybe uselessness, but that's just your opinion), never really meant anything, and wasn't funny.

Oh, and yes, WC needs a buff.

i believe he made that reference to you saying that you would use hoto even if it didnt have extra dmg
so he meant that, if u dont want extra dmg and just the kd, use wastrels colapse

BlackSephir · Nov 20, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

It amazes me how much people hate SP sins yet they still like to keep reinventing them.

Further proving that this nerf didn't kill SP spike. Made it weaker? Sure? Killed it? Hell no. Screwing skills that were used not only in SP spike? Ya-ha.
What's next? AN will 'take care' of SP spike by making Black Mantis Thrust 10e? Making Trampling 10e? BoS max +20dmg?
Again, it's SP + IAS that's the problem, not even pre-nerf BLS was so broken as this is.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Nov 20, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

The way that anet would nerf SP is by either killing the skill altogether or ruining more sin skills that don't need to be nerfed, or by nerfing all IAS mods to the point where they really aren't all that good anymore even on main classes. Still they need to nerf those before they attack more sin skills. Anet really needs to stop RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing over sins,

BlackSephir · Nov 20, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Or they can just leave IAS stances, rest of A's skills and make SP unusable with stances

Everybody wins
No SP sins
No nerfing other skills that don't require nerfing
SP still remains awesome cuz of snare, hex and shadowstep in 1 skill

zknifeh · Nov 20, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

i think they should make it like so...
shadow prison: shadow step to target fow. target foe moves 66% slower. your current stance ends, and all of your stances are disabled for 10 seconds

ensoriki · Nov 20, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Zknifeh's Idea works best.

If you just make it end your stances so what?

Many assassins use their stance right AFTEr they shadow step.

Disabling stances is nice.

However I wish it disabled Certain stances....It would suck if it disabled Vipers Defense or something >.>

How about.

All stances under 3 mastery end =P >.>
Although that probably wouldn't work....

But I want my defence stances up dammit!

MercenaryK · Nov 20, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

BlackSephir has been mentioning that idea you think Zknifeh came up with. I've been seeing a lot of it come from BlackSephir. Regardless I agree. Afterall you have the Shadow Step and the Snare, you may as well include an insta-kill without any further skills needed.

Can't have everything. May as well just have it disable all stances. Besides Viper's Defense makes you randomly teleport away from your attacker; that wouldn't tie well with SP would it? And why would you use it with SP anyways? So you can teleport, get wanded and then teleported away from your target?

SP - disables all stances for X.....X ........... FGJ

ensoriki · Nov 20, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

BlackSephir has been mentioning that idea you think Zknifeh came up with. I've been seeing a lot of it come from BlackSephir. Regardless I agree. Afterall you have the Shadow Step and the Snare, you may as well include an insta-kill without any further skills needed.

Can't have everything. May as well just have it disable all stances. Besides Viper's Defense makes you randomly teleport away from your attacker; that wouldn't tie well with SP would it? And why would you use it with SP anyways? So you can teleport, get wanded and then teleported away from your target?

SP - disables all stances for X.....X ........... FGJ

SP-Disables all Non-assassin stances = Yes.

Why would you have an assassin disable his own stances?
In a role play sense (SHOOT ME) if your a master of your craft... you should be able to handle your techniques.

Thus I think it disabling any non-assassin stances = Better.

ALSO, the assassin can Still use Non sin stances.
However they depend a bit more on luck/prediction/watching the field.

Mirror Stance >.> If you know the warrior has Frenzy/flurry/flail lol

MercenaryK · Nov 20, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

SP-Disables all Non-assassin stances = Yes.

Why would you have an assassin disable his own stances?
In a role play sense (SHOOT ME) if your a master of your craft... you should be able to handle your techniques.

Thus I think it disabling any non-assassin stances = Better.

ALSO, the assassin can Still use Non sin stances.
However they depend a bit more on luck/prediction/watching the field.

Mirror Stance >.> If you know the warrior has Frenzy/flurry/flail lol

Deadly Paradox disables attack skills, shall we make it not disable attack skills? What stances does the Assassin have that would greatly benefit being used with SP? Way of the Mastery? Flashing Blades? Or maybe Dash and the other running skills the Assassin has?

But by the time the SP effect ends, it's time to run anyways. Even if you need to use a run stance mid-way because everything went wrong, you can't because stances are disabled, thus with no getaway you die. Sucks yeah, but guess you gotta pick your targets or situations better.

*shrugs* Disables all stances is an easy fix.

ensoriki · Nov 20, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

Deadly Paradox disables attack skills, shall we make it not disable attack skills? What stances does the Assassin have that would greatly benefit being used with SP? Way of the Mastery? Flashing Blades? Or maybe Dash and the other running skills the Assassin has?

But by the time the SP effect ends, it's time to run anyways. Even if you need to use a run stance mid-way because everything went wrong, you can't because stances are disabled, thus with no getaway you die. Sucks yeah, but guess you gotta pick your targets or situations better.

*shrugs* Disables all stances is an easy fix.

Heres my idea.

If it aint Broke.DONT FIX IT

SP + assassin Stances = Not broke , So don't Fix it.
If you stop secondary stances go ahead fine.

Your point is lame, Oh uh....assassin stances aren't that great so why would you use em anyways? If they aren't troubling anyone. Then wtf?

And Deadly paradox? So maybe there a different kind of an assassin (im not talking signet spike)
And are using Deadly arts to serve as utility

You want to shut em down for that?
Killing the Secondary stances is fine >.> Just gimping potential assassin builds that may become useful later on >.> Well thats genius.

MercenaryK · Nov 21, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

I think you missed the 'mistake' I put in my post purposely.

Shadow Prison(Elite)
Flashing Blades(Elite)
Way of the Master(Elite)

The stances that AREN'T Elite are

Shadow's Haste, Dark Escape, Dash, Viper's Defense, Deadly Paradox, Smoke Powder Defense, Unseen Fury, Shadow Walk.

Now if Shadow Prison, like some have suggested, disables all stances, which of those in the situation of using Shadow Prison, would you use?

Not Shadow Walk, not Deadly Paradox, doubt you'd use Shadow's Haste and hopefully not Viper's Defense.

My guess with Shadow Prison is that you shadow step, unleash your combo, and get out asap. So by the time, I'm assuming, your combo is finished, and based on the amount of seconds that your stances are disabled, which could be up by then, you can use Dash or Dark Escape to ...... escape.

So it doesn't really matter if you go ahead and disable assassin stances. May as well. So what if you can't use Viper's Defense after using Shadow Prison? Like I said, wand > teleport, bam, your combo has to wait 20 seconds when you had to cause poison and teleport. Just seems odd.

The Assassin doesn't have 'fantastic' stances that are geared for increasing combat ability, but for getting in/out of combat.

And the master of craft idea .......... there's lots of skills that disable their own profession's skills or entire attributes. Can't call them off the top of my head, but Monk has a skill that disables ALL Protection Prayers. Warrior's have a stance that disables all attack skills. Is the Assassin truly going to be dead if they can't use any stances with Shadow Prison? I highly doubt it.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 21, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

The idea isn't to kill them, but to remove the insane speed at which they kill things. Besides, if you've got shadow prison on your bar, you probably have an IAS as your stance, not any of those you have mentioned.

MercenaryK · Nov 21, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

The idea isn't to kill them, but to remove the insane speed at which they kill things. Besides, if you've got shadow prison on your bar, you probably have an IAS as your stance, not any of those you have mentioned.

True .............. so it would be pointless to make it disable all stances and make it non-assassin stances ........

Bobby2 · Nov 21, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

*sighs* thread is going in circles.
Camp 1: HotO damage nerf is relevant.
Camp 2: HotO damage nerf is irrelevant.

To all those in Camp 2: you are a Sin, you exist for the sole purpose of bringing a target from X to 0 in the least amount of time possible. This is balanced only by your own willingness to forego self-protection (whether in the form of disruption or personal buffs). If you argue that a damage nerf on a skill you use does not affect you YOU FAIL @ GW.

Just my 2cts. Requesting lock if at all possible.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 21, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Oh, so every sin skill should do 800 damage so they can achieve the "X to 0" quota better?

Not. You forget the little concept of game balance in your theories there.