Curse

arcady · Nov 12, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Given a 'normal team, not a specialized one, in general play rather than farming some special area...

Is [card=big]Barrage[/card] likely to be wasting several of its hits?

In other words, how likely is it that the average use of the skill is going to hit more than 3-4 targets? Unless you have a team focused on grouping large mobs together, is Barrage overkill?

Would it be better to take [card=big]Volley[/card] and some other elite to get the same end result that Barrage would deliver, barring special zones where Barrage is particularly useful?

Chthon · Nov 12, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Less bonus damage and a TWO SECOND recharge. Anywhere barrage is worth using in the first place, those weaknesses are going to be pretty glaring, especially the recharge.

That said, I do use splinter/volley/broadhead for some dungeons just because I want to splinter, but I know I'll need the broadhead for the end boss. I may have to reconsider this now that splinter has been nerfed so damn hard.

iridescentfyre · Nov 12, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

The biggest X factor here is where its being used. I would have to say in the larger proportion of PvE environments, you're not going to be hitting more than 3 enemies at a time on average, and sometimes no more than 2. In a place like Vizunah Square, it makes more sense to bring it given the relatively small areas where tons of enemies show up.

I would say Barrage is a wasted elite in most of the places it sees use, especially with Volley out there now.

Marverick · Nov 12, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Volley is almost always better than Barrage on Rangers. 4 arrows is all you need because Splinter Weapon on an R/Rt only affects 4 attacks since you can't get 14 Channeling Magic.

Only exception is if you have Orders to make your bow attacks actually do significant damage themselves.

Barrage might be better on Rt/R since they can get 5 attacks, and also because Rits have jack**** for elites. But as a Ranger you have more useful skills for your elite.

arcady · Nov 12, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Nod.

I've always used Barrage on my ranger heroes, but Friday I made my first ranger (after 2 years in this game, I got my first ever max-stat green, a bow - so it needed a character

), and this afternoon I got far enough into Nightfall to cap Barrage and get Volley out of GW:EN. After seeing Volley in play with me rather than the AI in the driver's seat, I started wondering about the topic here.

Looks like Barrage is only useful in special situations, like Vizenuh Square. Volley however can be handy anytime mobs might clump in small numbers - which is fairly common.

The counter argument is the recharge time, but I'm not sure if that's enough of a counter to make it worth spending my elite slot on Barrage. I think it's time to make a new 'default' build for my ranger heroes.

tekDragon · Nov 15, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Well.. barrage just got a slight damage increase in the latest update.

Witchblade · Nov 15, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

i didnt try Volley yet but the 2s recharge seems too much

i'll prolly go for Volley when i'll need to pack Broad Head Arrow ^^

AaronSwitchblade · Nov 16, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Wow, it had never actually occurred to me - I mean I've seen volley but always thought of it as "worse" Barrage. I didn't think about it not being elite, and it's rare that I hit more than 3 enemies anyway.

Thanks for this, I have changes to make when I get home from work!

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 16, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Well, maybe it's just because I have a 500ms ping, but I personally can only use barrage every 2nd attack anyway, which more or less satisfies the 2s requirement.

Volley stacks better with splinter weapon. 4 attacks for 4 arrows. Additionally, casting SW before you pull, then pulling with volley, then casting SW again before using volley a second time should make that 2 second delay unnoticable.

Ok, so you lose 5 damage per arrow. But instead you get to take a different elite.

Barrage just isn't what it used to be.

zwei2stein · Nov 16, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Volley > Barrage, since you can use it with actually good elites.

Performance Pudding · Nov 16, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

they only made volley to make people get gwen... to bad they coulda just made new armor

Lhim · Nov 16, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Too bad volley removes all preparations. Just before they started the GWEN preview weekend they listed all the skills on wiki. At first there wasn't going to be any preparation removal with volley. They found out about their mistake though.....Just imagine incendiary arrows/apply poison + volley

Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often.

Aldric · Nov 16, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Overall i think Volley is preferable to barrage. There are certain builds and areas where Barrage would suit but the usefulness of a Volley/Elite combination is too good for me to pass up.

R/D Ebon Dust Aura/Volley is what I'm using in a number of current guild games. I can just circle around plinking off 2 or 3 arrows at once which virtually shuts down enemy melee leaving everyone else time to concentrate on monk/caster killing.

The occasional Enchant removal is a hard punch in the face though

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 16, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by deank81

Too bad volley removes all preparations. Just before they started the GWEN preview weekend they listed all the skills on wiki. At first there wasn't going to be any preparation removal with volley. They found out about their mistake though.....Just imagine incendiary arrows/apply poison + volley

Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often.

You can only carry 1 prep at a time.

And honestly I wonder just how devastating a preparation could be.

With poison arrow you can pretty much spam poison at will (and I've read reports that poison tip signet works on all barrage attacks... I haven't tested it and I have my doubts, but if the reports are correct, then barrage might just as well work with AP too). Barrage + Mark of Rodgorts + conjure flame spreads burning very nicely. Barrage just got a 5 point boost in damage, so read the wind doesn't seem like it would push it over the top either.

Burning arrow could work with volley, but not Barrage. However, the burning effect can be replicated and warmongers weapon more or less replicates the interrupt function AND already works with barrage (works great on groups of terrorweb dryders, btw).

Explosive arrow is another possibility, but splinter weapon FAR outclasses it in terms of damage.

Scavenger's focus could stack with volley, but would overall be less powerful than barrage and read the wind.

That leaves ignite arrows. Honestly this looks like the preperation that is the most open to abuse to me, but again the added damage would be dwarfed by splinter weapon.

Edit : forgot about melandrus arrows. It's unlikely that a whole group of targets will all be carrying enchantments. That leaves the bleeding effect which is less damaging than poison. Plus it would only work with volley, since the prep is elite.

So the only thing that I can think of is that Anet doesn't want preperations and weapon spells stacking WITH barrage, or that they don't want to give rangers such versatility without having to resort to the skills of a secondary class (conjure flame, mark of rodgorts, epidemic, splinter weapon, warmonger's weapon...).

malko050987 · Nov 16, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I prefer Barrage because I like spamming it until I'm left without energy >.>

That said, I have BHA in my skillbar most times now, because I'm doing HM and casters need to be shut up.

blakk · Nov 16, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

As you all know, the answer to this is based on one thing: what you are equipping these two skills to do?
Lets do the pound for pound comparison

BARRAGE
5 Energy
1 second recycle
Elite Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17 damage if they hit.

VOLLEY
5 energy
2 second recycle

Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.

I am not one of the people who can do the micro math for skills. I can do the simple stuff:
In 2 seconds, Barrage can hit 12 targets at the cost of 10 energy at+17 damage
Add a Zealous string and well there is no cost

In 2 seconds, Volley can hit 3 targets at the cost of 5 energy and +8 damage.
Add a zealous string and the cost is 3 energy.

Where will you most likely face a mob of 6 targets?
Where will you face a mob of 3 targets?
Ok finding a mob is easy, but for these skills to be effective, the mob will have to stay in the adjacent range.

The thing to consider is this: Barrage’s limitation is that it is an elite. Any non-elite skill that will empower barrage will also empower volley.

In my humble opnion, the answer to the questions is this revolves around Barrage. If you are willing to take barrage and punp it up somehow then you should take volley too.
It is a hero/sidekick (Batman/Robin, Yogi Bear/Boo-Boo) relationship. =D

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 16, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakk

As you all know, the answer to this is based on one thing: what you are equipping these two skills to do?
Lets do the pound for pound comparison

BARRAGE
5 Energy
1 second recycle
Elite Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17 damage if they hit.

VOLLEY
5 energy
2 second recycle

Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.

I am not one of the people who can do the micro math for skills. I can do the simple stuff:

All fine so far.

Quote:

In 2 seconds, Barrage can hit 12 targets at the cost of 10 energy at+17 damage
Add a Zealous string and well there is no cost

Wrong. At best, you can get a bow firing once every 1.33 seconds (normally it's once every 2.0 seconds for a shortbow or flatbow). However, the way that Barrage recharges (after the end of the last attack) will make those attacks occur at less than once every 2 seconds. To put it another way, taking an attack speed boost causes you to make one normal attack inbetween barrages.

Furthermore, it's up to 7 (target + 6 adjacent) targets at once, which in ideal situations would grant you a net bonus of at least 2 energy (or 4 energy with a reasonable number of expertise points)

Quote:

In 2 seconds, Volley can hit 3 targets at the cost of 5 energy and +8 damage.
Add a zealous string and the cost is 3 energy.

It would be 4 targets, and with expertise probably a gain of 1 energy in ideal situations. Again the 2 second recharge is a bit deceptive. Probably once every 3 seconds, depending on how the recharges work (I haven't tested it yet, I'll admit).

lennymon · Nov 16, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Elrien....
Preps are what makes a bow based ranger. First off Deank meant one prep or the other. Poison tip signet works with barrage or any other attack making the very *first arrow* which hits cause poison. You only left off the most glaringly broken combos... consider the ramifications of volley + glass arrows or incendiary arrows... no preps will ever work with it. The reason they don't allow preps is for the very same reason that splinter weapon just got a nerf, hmm?

If you're in a situation where splinter barrage is *actually* the right thing to bring you'll still have 2 barrages per ability to reapply splinter... hence a big reason volley is superior with splinter. You don't waste your elite spot and volley times better with splinter.

Edit: perhaps barrage pet groups could try splinter volley with heal as one instead of comfort?

malko050987 · Nov 16, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

Edit: perhaps barrage pet groups could try splinter volley with heal as one instead of comfort?

Oooh... that's an interesting idea. I'll see if my guildies want to give this a try. It would take off some pressure off the monk, which is good in HM ^_^

blakk · Nov 16, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

All fine so far.

Wrong. At best, you can get a bow firing once every 1.33 seconds (normally it's once every 2.0 seconds for a shortbow or flatbow). However, the way that Barrage recharges (after the end of the last attack) will make those attacks occur at less than once every 2 seconds. To put it another way, taking an attack speed boost causes you to make one normal attack inbetween barrages.

Furthermore, it's up to 7 (target + 6 adjacent) targets at once, which in ideal situations would grant you a net bonus of at least 2 energy (or 4 energy with a reasonable number of expertise points)

It would be 4 targets, and with expertise probably a gain of 1 energy in ideal situations. Again the 2 second recharge is a bit deceptive. Probably once every 3 seconds, depending on how the recharges work (I haven't tested it yet, I'll admit).

I DID say I wasn't big on teh micro math, I see your point.
My point was based on the recharge times of the Skills themselves, not the overall damage in the actual 2 secs.