Curse

- Tain - · Nov 06, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

In a balanced UW group (not the "easy button" Ursan BS that's letting morons think they're decent players), an OF tank is common - pretty much standard/required for clearing. Most of these tanks are W/E... however, I've had a lot of experience in UW and found that E/D or E/Me work much better for almost all situations here. Let's compare:

- Typical W/E OF tank -
[card]Stoneflesh Aura[/card][card]glyph of Swiftness[/card][card]Obsidian Flesh[/card][card]Wary Stance[/card][card]Grasping Earth[/card][card]Glyph of Concentration[/card][card]Dolyak Signet[/card][card]Signet of Stamina[/card]
Strength: 12+3+1, Earth 12, Tactics 3

Pros: Interrupt and knockdown prevention, higher base armor, higher health
Cons: No energy management (needs Balth Spirit from team), can't maintain OF or Stoneflesh without consumables, no self healing

- E/D OF tank -
[card]Obsidian Flesh[/card][card]Glyph of Swiftness[/card][card]Stoneflesh Aura[/card][card]Armor of Earth[/card][card]Stone Striker[/card][card]Mystic Regeneration[/card][card]Conviction[/card][card]Grasping Earth[/card]
Earth: 12+3+1, E. Storage: 10+1, Earth Prayers: 8

Pros: Constant OF and Stoneflesh, constant +10 hp regen
Cons: No energy management (needs Balth Spirit from team)

- E/Me OF tank -
[card]Obsidian Flesh[/card][card]Glyph of Swiftness[/card][card]Stoneflesh Aura[/card][card]Armor of Earth[/card][card]Stone Striker[/card][card]Channeling[/card][card]Mantra of Earth[/card][card]Grasping Earth[/card]
Earth: 12+3+1, E. Storage: 8+1, Inspiration: 10

Pros: Constant OF and Stoneflesh, excellent energy management, damage reduction (works beyond +armor cap)
Cons: No self healing

- Overview -
For me, this is a very, very easy decision. If a party member doesn't mind taking Balth Spirit (typically a necro - soul reaping ftw), the E/D is clearly the best choice. If no one will bring Balth Spirit, the E/Me is ideal. The W/E just doesn't bring enough to the table. Let's take a look:

"But the warrior has more health!"
In general, more health means you live longer. However, having a constant 33 damage reduction and spell protection in addition to either +10 hp regen or 42% damage reduction easily makes up for any health difference over time (unless you're being spiked for 700 damage, which won't happen here).

"But the warrior has more armor!"

If the ele uses Geomancer's Insignia to synergize with Stone Striker, they have a base 80 armor and +62 bonus armor for a total of 142 armor against any physical or elemental damage.

Most warrior OF tanks use Radiant Insignia for energy, but let's say they're using Sentinel's to give them as much benefit from their primary profession as we can. That would give them 100 base armor, with a bonus of +42 armor for a total of... 142 armor against physical or elemental damage. Identical to the supposedly weaker ele, and if said warrior was using Radiant rather than Sentinel's, the ele would have stronger armor vs elemental attacks (terrorweb dryders, maybe?).

"But what about interrupts?"

True, an ele tank can be interrupted by aatxes and grasping darkness. However, you will only encounter these in the Labyrinth - a small fraction of UW. Simply pre-cast your enchantments (except for OF, it isn't needed for these) and wade in. One good nuker or SS can wipe out these mobs before you need to re-cast your enchantments, and most groups have 2-3 nukers as well as an SS. If you do find you need to re-cast, the skills Shield of Deflection, Guardian, and Reckless Haste are very useful to prevent interrupts and are all very common skills for teams to carry. As far as interrupts in other areas of UW (mesmers in Chaos Plains), the ele with constant OF will handle them far better than the warrior.

"And knockdowns?"

Constant OF means you will never have to worry about being knocked down by a dryder's Meteor Shower. The only thing that will knock you down is a charged blackness using Shock, which come in groups of ~3 and are squishy eles that die very quickly (long before your initial enchantments run out).

Niila · Nov 07, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

E/Me: Channeling -> Melee Ward. Some block always helps and mantra really gives you all the energy you need.
Kinetic Armor -> Sliver Armor. You get rid of annoying 3sec cast time, besides you already have enough armor and ramage reduction.

E/D: No need for conviction. OF is already +20 armor, seeing they don't stack, conviction is pretty much worthless.

- Tain - · Nov 07, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Yes, lot's of possible variants probably make more sense.. this was just off the top of my head mostly

It's not Kinetic Armor, it's Armor of Earth - the guru skill cards just have the wrong icon. Also, the +armor does make a noticeable difference, as well as the fact that Sliver Armor can drive enemies out of aggro like AoE damage.

I'd take Ward vs Foes before Melee, though. 90% snare when combined with Grasping Earth lets your SH eles go nuts without worrying about drawing aggro - plus, taking melee hits recharges your energy (and the damage is negligible).

I do still like Channeling, however, because not all damage is physical/elemental. In areas like the chaos plains and bone pits you would not always be gaining energy from Mantra of Earth (chaos + dark damage).

Olias__ · Nov 07, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

actually if you use tanks you're terrible

- Tain - · Nov 07, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olias__

actually if you use tanks you're terrible

Clearing in 2:10 isn't what I would call terrible for a balanced UW group. Using a tank is not always the fastest way, but almost certainly the most reliable.

Washi · Nov 07, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

R/E

[card]Obsidian Flesh[/card][card]Glyph of elemental power[/card][card]Stoneflesh Aura[/card][card]Armor of Earth[/card][card]Stone Striker[/card][card]serpent's quickness[/card][card]storm chaser[/card][card]Grasping Earth[/card]

Constant OF, base 100 armor, infinite energy (you only need to use storm chaser for a few seconds but need to be carful not to break SQ chain :P )

Dunno if its better or worse than W or E, I use it cause my main is A ranger and I have no problems at all.

The Meth · Nov 08, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

In a balanced UW group (not the "easy button" Ursan BS that's letting morons think they're decent players), an OF tank is common - pretty much standard/required for clearing.

Not to be insulting, and you make a good analysis of the pros and cons, but I would say a group using an OF tank (or any dedicated tank that blocks enemies) isn't a balanced group, it is instead exploiting the AI and is an 'easy button' that lets morons think they're decent players.

Oops, I think I just insulted the majority of PvE players.

(dives into bomb shelter and prepares to stay for a few weeks, will come out when its safe)

BTW if you are a PvPer don't laugh, the majority of PvP players have no idea how to play either.

Washi · Nov 08, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Well sure it's better to bring some paragons and spam chants, then you dont need any tank but isn't that also easy? I mean there are lots of good team builds that with half decent players will do just fine anywhere.

- Tain - · Nov 08, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

snip

I get what you mean, but I disagree that using a tank is an exploit... It's an accepted idea in games like this that one character should soak up damage while others deal it. An exploit would be using something in a way that it isn't supposed to be used - having armor boosts, damage reduction, and a snare is using skills exactly how they should be used.

And sure, everyone can use a build - but that doesn't mean they can use it well. Picking up a pug tank is far from an 'easy button'.

Horseman Of War · Nov 08, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Not to be insulting, and you make a good analysis of the pros and cons, but I would say a group using an OF tank (or any dedicated tank that blocks enemies) isn't a balanced group, it is instead exploiting the AI and is an 'easy button' that lets morons think they're decent players.

Oops, I think I just insulted the majority of PvE players.

(dives into bomb shelter and prepares to stay for a few weeks, will come out when its safe)

BTW if you are a PvPer don't laugh, the majority of PvP players have no idea how to play either.

i agree. I think Anet gave us Ursan Blessing for this very reason- so that if people are going to take the easy way out they can at least make it interesting. Even if the dreaded nerf happens for Ursan itll still be classic norn style "we thought 3 would be enough but the kid wanted to tag along" tromps through any area in the game. Bearform was Supposed to own. Let them take away the holy damage and drop r10's effectiveness to r8's level... it doesnt matter- people will piss and moan all day about a nerf but itll still be just as simple and effective. They already have it so you cannot BiP the Bear... If anything the UW clearing teams will start saying r8+ instead of r5+ in towns, which shouldnt be a major concern for those of us already there.

------------_------------ · Nov 09, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

55 monk tank

duh.

- Tain - · Nov 09, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ------------_------------

55 monk tank

duh.

Um, no. Try 55ing in the chaos plains... 55s don't maintain SB, you'll be stripped and dead in no time.

A11Eur0 · Nov 09, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

stripped, interrupted, dead. And that 55 monk would be useless in the entire Twin serpent Mountains area...not that it matters because that area is a joke with 2 nukers.

I really wish I hadn't deleted my level 20 ele. And Eles are too boring at the start for me to want to waste the time getting one back up there.

MisterB · Nov 09, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

R/E

[card]Obsidian Flesh[/card][card]Glyph of elemental power[/card][card]Stoneflesh Aura[/card][card]Armor of Earth[/card][card]Stone Striker[/card][card]serpent's quickness[/card][card]storm chaser[/card][card]Grasping Earth[/card]

Constant OF, base 100 armor, infinite energy (you only need to use storm chaser for a few seconds but need to be carful not to break SQ chain :P )

Dunno if its better or worse than W or E, I use it cause my main is A ranger and I have no problems at all.

That's a nice Obsidian Flesh tank build.

Abedeus · Nov 09, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

MisterB - It is nice, but instead of Glyph of Ele Power put 6 spare points into Air Magic (so it's 12 earth 12 wilderness 3 air) and get Glyph of Swiftness.

Washi · Nov 09, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

MisterB - It is nice, but instead of Glyph of Ele Power put 6 spare points into Air Magic (so it's 12 earth 12 wilderness 3 air) and get Glyph of Swiftness.

Glyph of swiftness will not change a thing! I don't need a faster OF recharge cause I still need to wait for SQ, but if OF lasts longer thanks to GoEP then I can keep it up all the time.

And a side effect is that all other spells get stronger.

Tarkin · Nov 12, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olias__

actually if you use tanks you're terrible

If you use comsumables you is terrible... i like to see 3 or 4 comsumables buffs in "invencible" paragon teams or brainless ursanteams sreens shots... lol

A11Eur0 · Nov 19, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

Glyph of swiftness will not change a thing! I don't need a faster OF recharge cause I still need to wait for SQ, but if OF lasts longer thanks to GoEP then I can keep it up all the time.

And a side effect is that all other spells get stronger.

Glyph of swiftness has a recharge faster than the duration of OF...so when you need to cast of again, just cast glyph again, no waiting for SQ.

Washi · Nov 19, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Glyph of swiftness has a recharge faster than the duration of OF...so when you need to cast of again, just cast glyph again, no waiting for SQ.

Maybe you need to read the description of both skills, and if you don't see a diffrence maybe try actually using them...

lennymon · Nov 19, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

I just use dwarven stability/SQ with my Ranger obs flesh build instead of those glyphs. Perhaps you all haven't played in the last few days either... try glyph of concentration...(I hate it when the critters get interrupts into me - like slavers and magebane ick). 100% SQ mean no waiting assuming you have decent monks and reasonable ability to time casts.