Curse

~ Dan ~ · Nov 07, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion

A sin is more of a team player than a derv? Wow. Just, wow....

candyman_sb · Nov 07, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

other than imbue dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA.

Sorry but you fail.

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 07, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.

Considering they have self heals instead of extra armour i don't see how your point about backlines needing to watch them more is valid. Anyhow, seeing as your profession is "W/" i expected this kind of opinion on the dervish.

You mention "without having to stop attacking" but yet suggest ranger spirits and sin hexing are viable? Well then watchful intervention, the entire pious renewal / arcane zeal support healer build, mystic healing.. there may be more but these were off the top of my head.

If you want to find out about what derv's offer to teams.. hell look around this forum. If not, shut up, because this thread has gone way off topic.

.. AoB gogo!

Str0b0 · Nov 07, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion

The average derv bar has at least three attack skills. I know I never run less than three. If you run less than three you don't have a balanced build you have a tragedy. As far as team utility I've said it once and I'll say it again, it is not the front line's job to buff the team. Yeah the warrior has shouts and stuff but by and large these never even reach the party since a warrior's place is on the front line. It is your support classes, you know monks and ritualists and paragons, job to buff the party. A Dervishes job is to kill things quick. The difference between an assassin and a dervish is that a dervish is designed to take out three targets at a time, the assassin is not but they fullfill the same function. If you want to buff and heal the party other classes have the ability to do it better, rarely the talent but the ability,but it is stupid for you to expect a class that is not designed to do those things to do it. Here's a thought, since all characters apparently must have party wide utility then why bother even having the other professions for secondary? Why not just make everyone's secondary monk? Then they can spam prot and heal skills that they don't have the energy for and generally fail at doing their job. As far as lacking the prowess and being a liability? Ummm warriors fail all the time, my dervish rarely dies. I take care of myself without the need for backline attention and in the unfortunate situation of a party wipe I'm usually the last one standing and can finish off the remaining enemy and then res.

candyman_sb · Nov 07, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.

Your post sounds more like derv bashing. Why? Because you say dervs offer shit support and that sins can support better(how?). Don't tell me that dps=support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.

Probably you also fail to make a balanced derv build with decent survival and offense. The only defense a derv needs in pve is conviction and mystic regen to be decent and can still take lots of offensive skills + some utility like mending touch, cripling sweep, wild blow etc.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 07, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyman_sb

The only defense a derv needs in pve is monks that don't fail at GW

fix'd.

12chars

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Considering they have self heals instead of extra armour i don't see how your point about backlines needing to watch them more is valid. Anyhow, seeing as your profession is "W/" i expected this kind of opinion on the dervish.

You mention "without having to stop attacking" but yet suggest ranger spirits and sin hexing are viable? Well then watchful intervention, the entire pious renewal / arcane zeal support healer build, mystic healing.. there may be more but these were off the top of my head.

If you want to find out about what derv's offer to teams.. hell look around this forum. If not, shut up, because this thread has gone way off topic.

sins hexes are 1/4-3/4 of a second, and watchful is pathetic. its a minimal anti spike tool and imo a waste of a skill slot. the pious renewal zeal supporter is pretty much a trash build itself, and anyone with a brain could easily end that little gimmick combo. mystic healing is nice, i'll give you that.

i know what dervs offer to teams, i see all the top gvgs and ha matches just like everyone else, but it think the dervish player community trying to compare them to warriors is absurd. different play styles and .. its just goes on and on. my post was to be in debate of the AoB junk from earlier, and wasnt to say dervs suck, but that their utility when using builds like that is minimal to none. i rather have team players than a guy with msy regen, aob, watchful, vigor, and conviction on the same bar.. not to mention almost never bringing a res.

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyman_sb

Your post sounds more like derv bashing. Why? Because you say dervs offer shit support and that sins can support better(how?). Don't tell me that dps=support.

Probably you also fail to make a balanced derv build with decent survival and offense. The only defense a derv needs in pve is conviction and mystic regen to be decent and can still take lots of offensive skills + some utility like mending touch, cripling sweep, wild blow etc.

one, you dont know me, two, i have a derv, three, i dont play derv like how any of you have described. i play dervish primarily in PvP, so you to say im "bashing" the class, when i play the class, makes me do nothing more than laugh. most of the best pvp derv builds use little self healing, and more importantly, create the effective use of their better skill line. btw "lots" of utility skills doesnt include the only skill a derv primary has offensively, crippling sweep. take rending touch, rending sweep, and wounding if you want the bit of good skills scythe mastery has. wild blow, and various secondary skills aside, the dervish is either full offensive, not so offensive but can heal, or full heal/support. you cant have it all. in pve, play anything for all i care, you still wont be that great if you're filling your bar with 50 heals and static enchants.

oh, and AoB still sucks.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 07, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

sins hexes are 1/4-3/4 of a second, and watchful is pathetic. its a minimal anti spike tool and imo a waste of a skill slot. the pious renewal zeal supporter is pretty much a trash build itself, and anyone with a brain could easily end that little gimmick combo. mystic healing is nice, i'll give you that.

Most dervish enchants are also 1/4 - 3/4 sec. Wake up. And watchful intervention is a pro skill.

Quote:

i know what dervs offer to teams, i see all the top gvgs and ha matches just like everyone else

Welcome to the PvE section. Enjoy your stay.

Quote:

but it think the dervish player community trying to compare them to warriors is absurd.

Like who?

Quote:

different play styles and .. its just goes on and on. my post was to be in debate of the AoB junk from earlier, and wasnt to say dervs suck, but that their utility when using builds like that is minimal to none.

Utility is minimal to none? Why? Because your comparing them to a warrior? Shouting out "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields up!" counts as major utility? Every primary warrior comes in here shouting how war > derv.

Take a post from you in this thread for example:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0188420&page=9

Quote:

dervs make it seem like they have it all, make it look like its the end all melee spellsword kinda thing, but face it, would any game replace the most traditional of a ll classes, the warrior, with some broken, overpowered class? no. dervs are simply easy to counter utility characters, built usually with little to no team utility, full self support, yet nothing but auto attack to back it up with. if you actually play a derv that deals damage, you'll probably get smacked with all the same junk us warriors do, that we've been handling since the game came out. you came late, gl with a mes, a necro, a warrior, a ranger, a.. oh.. you get the idea... we all counter your class, that has mediocre counters for us.

And you don't think dervs suck >.> You clearly contradict your very narrow minded comments.

Quote:

i rather have team players than a guy with msy regen, aob, watchful, vigor, and conviction on the same bar.. not to mention almost never bringing a res.

Who the f*ck runs that? That is a very bad stereotype.

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Most dervish enchants are also 1/4 - 3/4 sec. Wake up. And watchful intervention is a pro skill.

Welcome to the PvE section. Enjoy your stay.

Like who?

Utility is minimal to none? Why? Because your comparing them to a warrior? Shouting out "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields up!" counts as major utility? Every primary warrior comes in here shouting how war > derv.

Take a post from you in this thread for example:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0188420&page=9

And you don't think dervs suck >.> You clearly contradict your very narrow minded comments.

Who the f*ck runs that? That is a very bad stereotype.

pvp is what skills are balanced to, nice try with the sarcasm. watchful by no means is "pro", and i saw the warrior thread, it has nothing to do with this. i play warrior, para, and sin in pve, yet i have every other class in pve, all campaigns blah blah blah as well. by no means do i think dervs are bad, poor damage dealers, or sub-par to any other class, they just have a major design flaw imo with their class. they can be countered at every turn in more ways than any other class (if you play balanced). i still play my imba AoM derv almost every day, so for you to attack me is really not doing anything for your argument.

btw, tons of people run that style of derv. go to low tier pvp and general pve. RA/TA/AB kids love that junk, and i see almost as many (almost) dervs running their "invincible" junk as the loser wammo crowd.

just because it says w/ under my profile name, doesnt mean im biased, it just means i play it more than say d/. you call me narrow minded, but you think skills like wy! and shields up, or save yourself isnt pro... lol

moko · Nov 07, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

why are you comparing a solo class (sin) to a normal melee (derv)? this is so pointless and you are so wrong, i'm not even going to start on it. -_-

~ Dan ~ · Nov 07, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

pvp is what skills are balanced to, nice try with the sarcasm.

The fact is your judging derv's by what's seen in GvG. That one bar. It's no wonder your knowledge is limited.

Quote:

watchful by no means is "pro"

It's a perfect spike prevention (useful in HM). Selecting the ally and pre-casting it makes it a pro skill.

Quote:

and i saw the warrior thread, it has nothing to do with this.

Oh, but your comment in that thread bashing derv's is relevant.

Quote:

by no means do i think dervs are bad, poor damage dealers, or sub-par to any other class

What i quoted of you from the warrior thread states otherwise, pretty much.

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they just have a major design flaw imo with their class. they can be countered at every turn in more ways than any other class (if you play balanced).

Shutting down a derv is not so simple as saying "we have a counter". I hope you come to realise this some day.

Quote:

btw, tons of people run that style of derv. go to low tier pvp and general pve. RA/TA/AB kids love that junk, and i see almost as many (almost) dervs running their "invincible" junk as the loser wammo crowd.

General PvE is full of idiots. That is the general reason i created this thread, basing it on the overused pathetic skill of them all. Judging a class, well.. stereotyping.. based on low tier pvp. Well, i lol'ed. When you learn how to set out a good bar from a bad bar, let me know. Disgarding good derv players with the ability to show the dervish to be a good profession, because of a load of lvl18 D/Mo retards is just plain stupid.

Quote:

just because it says w/ under my profile name, doesnt mean im biased, it just means i play it more than say d/. you call me narrow minded, but you think skills like wy! and shields up, or save yourself isnt pro... lol

WY is a good skill. If you didn't fail so bad at reading, you would've realised i said that a few tactics shouts doesn't classify as "good utility". It seems to be the general attitude of main warrior players to look down on us dervishes.

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

dan, idk why you personally attack me over and over again. is it simply because im my personal opinion i dont agree with you? you need to relax, its just a forum.

ensoriki · Nov 07, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Magikarp wtf are you talking about!!!!!?

>.> your making my assassin cry.

An assassin can be more of a team player in PVP if you focus him around it.
Problem is, he becomes generally to inefficient to be a true team player.

Sin's Provide Armor Ignoring Damage like Bruce Lee vs a flower.

Dervishes in pve can damage 3 enemys at once, NATURALLY, thats a team player.
Dervishes in PVP are able to split and so forth (all classes can but still)

Dervishes can heal they're party,

Assassin support really comes from the skills that are used to support them
Siphon Speed
Siphon Strength
Shroud of Silence
Caltrops.

Those skill are generally made to help a sin more than its party members (while they can)

However dervish wind prayers have skills to help your party (wtf is it mystic healing that heals your party or something else?)

Your wrong Magikarp.

Dervish's in Generally have better Team Support (we shouldnt even say Team player >.>)

Turtle222 · Nov 07, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

isnt this going a bit off topic?

AoB isnt totally bad for a person who has to juggle lots of enchants around and is persistent, but imo you could do much better with dwayna, mel or lyssa

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Magikarp wtf are you talking about!!!!!?

>.> your making my assassin cry.

An assassin can be more of a team player in PVP if you focus him around it.
Problem is, he becomes generally to inefficient to be a true team player.

Sin's Provide Armor Ignoring Damage like Bruce Lee vs a flower.

Dervishes in pve can damage 3 enemys at once, NATURALLY, thats a team player.
Dervishes in PVP are able to split and so forth (all classes can but still)

Dervishes can heal they're party,

Assassin support really comes from the skills that are used to support them
Siphon Speed
Siphon Strength
Shroud of Silence
Caltrops.

Those skill are generally made to help a sin more than its party members (while they can)

However dervish wind prayers have skills to help your party (wtf is it mystic healing that heals your party or something else?)

Your wrong Magikarp.

Dervish's in Generally have better Team Support (we shouldnt even say Team player >.>)

sins work just as well in a splint, death blossom owns all in pve paired with the most famous sin pve combo in the game, sins get blinding power, caltrops, hidden caltrops, tons of KD skills (yes, KD is utility), tons of snare hexes, enchant removal, unblockability, high dps (the ability to kill before being killed should be considered utility seeing as it lessens the number of people you're fighting), and have various builds focused on team-wide devastation such as the "fear me!' spammer in pvp.

dervs get rending, touch, crippling, grenths grasp, aura.. if you count it.., imbue, mys, and sig of pious for their team. impo, i find KD, lots of snares to choose from, and target dropping (pvp)/mass aoe thats better than 3 target auto swing (pve), much better. i guess thats just me though. i WISH my derv could KD someone..

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

on topic: Balthazar sucks
Off topic:
You forgot all the wind prayers healing, Constant Pressure, All the enchant removal,

And I dunno about you, but that sexy hood is support for me!

Don't get me wrong Love my sin far more than my Derv, but Derv's have more Team focused Support.

Sin's have utility and support but its not focused on their team or helping anyone but themselves really (we are a selfish class =P)

Hidden caltrops? Please

Cripple dagger >HCaltrops >.> *builds flame shield of fortitude*

When we could utility, where not counting about target dropping magikarp

Which is a place where a Derv ALSO is good at >.>

Heres how it is

Allied/multiple SUpport = Dervs
Singular/self support = Sins

Sin's can give utility, but its not in the same way Dervs do, there Support is better for keeping more than 1 team mate alive.

Where shroud of Silence, Siphon strength (the melee incoming) keeps 1 person/yourself alive .

Magikarp · Nov 08, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

on topic: Balthazar sucks
Off topic:
You forgot all the wind prayers healing, Constant Pressure, All the enchant removal,

And I dunno about you, but that sexy hood is support for me!

Don't get me wrong Love my sin far more than my Derv, but Derv's have more Team focused Support.

Sin's have utility and support but its not focused on their team or helping anyone but themselves really (we are a selfish class =P)

Hidden caltrops? Please

Cripple dagger >HCaltrops >.> *builds flame shield of fortitude*

When we could utility, where not counting about target dropping magikarp

Which is a place where a Derv ALSO is good at >.>

Heres how it is

Allied/multiple SUpport = Dervs
Singular/self support = Sins

Sin's can give utility, but its not in the same way Dervs do, there Support is better for keeping more than 1 team mate alive.

Where shroud of Silence, Siphon strength (the melee incoming) keeps 1 person/yourself alive .

i understand that the two types of utility are totally different, and i totally agree with you. i guess im just more offensive than i am defensive with my utility preferance, and maybe thats where i collide with others on the topic. siphon and shroud still affect your team btw, they still get hindered regardless.

oh, and trust me, i never use caltrops, i was just listing examples lol.

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Hindered regardless maybe, but just remember a Derv can better Constant Support,or wider support to the Entire team thus better in the fact that its constant or affects more than 1 or 2.

The Sin will give strong support to 1 Member of the team or Themselves.

draxynnic · Nov 08, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

then name some skills dervs offer for team utility that still allow them to attack. saying i "fail" without reason is just trolling. warriors have team shouts, paras are obvious, rangers have spirits, snares, and blind skills, sins have hexs and snares, not to mention the utility of target dropping.. what do dervs do? they save themselves most of the time. im not saying they arent good at killing, they just dont do it with the team. they run in and dont have as much armor or overall prowess as a warrior, so their backline needs to watch them more, making them a liability with both melee and spells/enchants.

Well, if nothing else, as was actually mentioned earlier in this thread a Dervish can potentially use adrenal skills (including shouts like SY!, WY! (less so with the recent update) and FM!, as well as the mainly-redundant-but-extra-damage-is-extra-damage Whirlwind Attack) better than adrenal classes - simply because said skills charge up that much faster for the Dervish. By not taking Earth or Wind Prayers, a Dervish can potentially sidespec into Tactics and do the party-support role you're claiming to do better than you can (sure, they don't get runes, but I'd guess most people only use a minor for Tactics and put their headgear and any bigger runes in their headgear anyway). I've also heard of - but haven't personally experimented with - things like orders dervishes.

So, even if you completely discount the party-friendly abilities on the Dervish's own line, the nature of the profession means that it can do a good job of borrowing other professions' party support and being a team player that way. That's assuming that they aren't, you know, better off just killing things.