Curse

~ Dan ~ · Nov 03, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

the best derv skills are AoM, VoS, and EDA.

I wouldn't consider VoS to be one of the best derv skills. There are many elites i'd choose instead. But when speccing earth, Mystic Regen is pretty much a staple skill.

There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill.

iridescentfyre · Nov 03, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

are you serious? OF tanks are fantastic and always have been.. what game do you play?

The issue was not that OF tanks are inferior to, say, other tanking builds. The problem is that tanking is a pointless waste of time. PvE isn't hard enough to justify it.

Burst Cancel · Nov 03, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

That's just the point I made earlier adding a couple defensive skills doesn't hurt the offensive strength of most dervish builds! I can still maintain high dps despite the fact that I'm using Great Dwarf Armor + Mystic Regeneration. Removing those two skills and adding two attack skills won't be improving my damage output.

The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:

Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)

There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.

And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.

In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.

And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team.

Magikarp · Nov 03, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

I wouldn't consider VoS to be one of the best derv skills. There are many elites i'd choose instead. But when speccing earth, Mystic Regen is pretty much a staple skill.

There is also a reason why mm's and fire eles take the skill.

i was talking about derv elites, sorry... and im not fan of mys regen.

and to fyre, im aware tanks are pretty much useless, but if you're going to use one, use the best. either OF or AoM. thats just my take on it. the only time i've ever even played the role or pure "tank" was in the first few weeks of DoA, where we were all trying to decipher good set ups, and my guild was afraid of party wipes. i refuse to play such a waste of a team slots role, so now we just run balanced damage specs like everyone else.

if this is still on subject, AoB just isn't good enough to justify it as an elite. not when its just mocking sentinal warriors or WY!'ers.

party wide utility=synergy and good team play. thats why shouts are so darn good.

Arkantos · Nov 03, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

are you serious? OF tanks are fantastic and always have been.. what game do you play?

Tanks are horrible. What game do you play?

Tyla · Nov 03, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:

Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)

There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.

And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.

In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.

And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team.

maybe thats because that build is actually VERY powerful?
could fit in a little of the old faithful intervention though...

~ Dan ~ · Nov 03, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:

Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)

There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar.

Everybody knows that lyssa is all about your DPS, and that you take no defense on a lyssa bar. This proves nothing. You also should run eremites, mystic AND protector's, not either/or which free's up a slot by replacing the IAS. But that's a discussion for some other time..

Darkside · Nov 03, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The only build I use where I have any space on the skillbar is Vow of Strength builds, which have 3+ optional slots and are specced into Earth Prayers anyway. In that case, bring defense if you want; it's not like there's anything else to bring. For everything else, I never have any room. For instance:

Avatar of Lyssa {E}
Aura of Holy Might (PvE)
Eternal Aura (PvE)
Flail
Prot Strike/Mystic Sweep
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Sweep/Wild Blow/Distracting Blow/"Finish Him!" (PvE)/"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (PvE)
Res Sig/Rebirth Sig (PvE)

There's no room for defense anywhere on that bar. The Avatar, AoHM, Eternal Aura, IAS, and Res are must-bring. That leaves 3 slots. Victorious Sweep is pretty much must-bring also (+29 unconditional damage, 5e, 4s recharge ...). That leaves the remaining two slots. With Lyssa, I usually bring at least one fast-attack, sometimes two, to take advantage of Lyssa's damage bonus. If I bring one, the last slot is a utility attack: Wild Blow for blocking stances, Distracting Blow if I need an interrupt, "Finish Him!" for deep wound, "YMLaD!" for KD+snare.

And then there's the fact that this build runs 14 scythe/13 myst, which leaves no points for things like Mystic Regen or Conviction. And there's no synergy with, for instance, Armor of Sanctity because I apply no conditions.

In general, you must sacrifice some offense to bring defense, by definition: instead of whatever defensive skill you brought, you could have brought an offensive skill instead. Vow of Strength is the exception here, because it disables a huge selection of offensive skills and leaves you with pretty much nothing else except offensive enchantments - most of which aren't very good. In other builds, you can almost always replace healing/defense with another attack skill, a utility skill, etc.

And again, I don't have anything against defense in general - Paragons are pretty ridiculous in most areas of the game due to their party-wide buffs that can't be interrupted or removed. But using skill slots to bring something that only benefits yourself - and only slightly - simply doesn't make sense in a balanced team.

Here's an example of one of the builds I run

Scythe Mastery - 13 (12+1)
Earth Prayers - 8
Mysticism - 12 (11+1)

The reason for those stats are to meet certain breakpoints. 8 in earth prayers for +3 mystic regen and for when I run vital boon, or some other earth prayers skills and mysticism at 12 for the energy gain from enchantment removal.

1.Great Dwarf Armor
2.Avatar of Lyssa
3.Mystic Regeneration
4.Eternal Aura
5.Aura of Holy Might
6.Heart of Fury
7.Resurrection Signet
8.Optional

So I get +24 armor and +60 life from Dwarf armor which lowers the damage I receive and as a bonus gives me +60 life (I find it to be a good mix of conviction and vital boon but only takes up one skill slot, not to mention that one enchantment alone in combination with the insignias on my armor gives me over 100 ar). Avatar of Lyssa for the extra damage to foes activating skills and for the extra energy to put up my high cost enchantments. Mystic Regeneration works well with this build because of all the enchantments so its an easy way to self heal. Eternal Aura lets me maintain Lyssa indefinitely, does 100 Damage (max sunspear rank) to all nearby foes, and recharges my other enchantments. Aura of Holy might gives me a little more kick on attack and heart of fury increases my attack speed. That leaves me one optional slot for whatever I need and a res. Or two optional slots if I don't take a res on my skill bar and bring a scroll of resurrection. I've not scarified damage and can heal myself quite well.

Burst Cancel · Nov 03, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Everybody knows that lyssa is all about your DPS, and that you take no defense on a lyssa bar. This proves nothing. You also should run eremites, mystic AND protector's, not either/or which free's up a slot by replacing the IAS. But that's a discussion for some other time..

That's an interesting argument: "Well OF COURSE you don't take any defense on that bar, it's all about DPS!". So the only time you take defense is on a bar that isn't about DPS? In other words, you're confirming that if you want to do high damage, you don't take defense. Thanks for agreeing with me.

As for the build itself, you can vary the attack set depending on what you need. If I run all three fast attacks and remove the IAS, I replace the IAS with one of the utility skills I listed. So no, there's no free slots - and no free attribute points.

I take Victorious Sweep because of the unconditional +29 damage bonus, which allows me to do good damage even when they aren't activating skills, and gives me an aggregate +73 when they are. You'll note that Mystic Sweep is +20 at best (when AoHM and EA are both up), and will most often be +10 only, since EA is only up 10s out of 30s. Prot Strike basically has no damage bonus. Eremite's goes from +10 to +30 conditional on the number of adjacent allies, which is unreliable.

The main point of those skills is to compress a lot of hits into your opponent's skill activation window, not necessarily to serve as your primary means of attack. If spammed, Prot Strike will cost you 5e/3.5s = 1.43e/s, and Mystic/Eremite's cost you 1.05e/s each. Total, that's a 3.53e/s drain, countered by only 1.33e/s regen. And that's not taking into account recasting Aura of Holy Might and Eternal Aura. Even with the +20e from Lyssa you can't keep this kind of attack spam up for that long.

In contrast, bringing the IAS increases the DPS of your normal hits, allows you to bring skills with unconditional damage bonus without significant speed penalty, and still retains the benefits of damage compression during the activation window.

Re Darkside: Contrary to your assertion, you are sacrificing damage. From an attribute standpoint, you lose a point in scythe, which lowers your critical hit chance and base damage rating, and you lose a point in mysticism, which is 3 less damage per hit on Lyssa. More significantly however, you don't have any attack skills, and your speed boost is only up 2/3rds of the time.

EDIT: This is getting really off-topic. If no one has an inclination to argue this further (I know I'm losing interest), I vote we stop here.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 03, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

That's an interesting argument: "Well OF COURSE you don't take any defense on that bar, it's all about DPS!". So the only time you take defense is on a bar that isn't about DPS? In other words, you're confirming that if you want to do high damage, you don't take defense. Thanks for agreeing with me.

No, it's the fact that any Dervish deciding to go full out DPS, will pick Lyssa, No doubt about it. If you want a balanced build with self heal, Lyssa isn't for you. But i didn't expect you to know that.

Quote:

EDIT: This is getting really off-topic. If no one has an inclination to argue this further (I know I'm losing interest), I vote we stop here.

Your very first post was off-topic. You found the wrong thread i'm afraid..

Burst Cancel · Nov 03, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

No, it's the fact that any Dervish deciding to go full out DPS, will pick Lyssa, No doubt about it. If you want a balanced build with self heal, Lyssa isn't for you. But i didn't expect you to know that.

(emphasis added)

By definition:
a) Offensive build = offensive skills
b) Defensive build = defensive skills
c) Balanced build = mixed

This isn't about Lyssa. My entire point was that options b) and c) are pointless with a monk backline. Way to totally miss the issue.

Quote:

Your very first post was off-topic. You found the wrong thread i'm afraid..

Baseless accusation. My first post dealt with AoB and why the +40AL was worthless. I also addressed the issue of why Dwayna's wasn't a good recommendation - a recommendation that someone else had made earlier in the thread.

The fact that you're clearly ill-mannered makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 03, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

(emphasis added)

By definition:
a) Offensive build = offensive skills
b) Defensive build = defensive skills
c) Balanced build = mixed

This isn't about Lyssa. My entire point was that options b) and c) are pointless with a monk backline. Way to totally miss the issue.

Mine (and other's) entire point is that self heal isn't pointless with a monk backline. Period.

Quote:

The fact that you're clearly ill-mannered makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.

The fact that your clearly arrogant, and think your opinion = fact, makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.

Burst Cancel · Nov 04, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Mine (and other's) entire point is that self heal isn't pointless with a monk backline. Period.

You haven't successfully argued that point. Accordingly, there is no "Period". Let me sum up your argument:
- Mystic regen is a lot of regen.
- Other skills can reduce damage to you and, combined with mystic regen, reduces the need for the monk to heal you.
- Taking defense doesn't require offensive sacrifices.

I've addressed these points several times. You don't actually help the monk in any significant way with self-only healing/defense. You said it's good for mopping up minor damage - but that's exactly what LoD does, and the monk doesn't expend any extra effort, time, or energy to heal multiple people with it. Then we agreed that it won't help against severe damage like the 300-point fireball. Unfortunately, extreme, concentrated damage is what takes the monk extra effort to deal with. So if you still need the monk to deal with that, you aren't really helping.

Taking defense always requires offensive sacrifices, because any defensive skill could be replaced by an offensive skill instead. As I've said above in regard to Vow of Strength, some builds simply don't have many additional offensive options, in which case there's really no reason not to take defense. But aside from those special cases you can always add something else - an additional damage buff, more attack skills, etc.

And again, I've repeated these arguments several times without any credible response from you. Rather, you make unsubstantiated claims that basically amount to just, "No, you're wrong".

Quote:

The fact that your clearly arrogant, and think your opinion = fact, makes me even less inclined to discuss this further.

I've done nothing but make supported arguments. If that makes me arrogant, then okay, I'm arrogant. At least I'm civil.

Anyway, I'm done with this. As Whiskey stated earlier, I'm sure you'd continue to espouse the virtues of insignificant defense skills regardless of any evidence to the contrary, so pursuing this further is simply fruitless.

Quicksilver Switch-Blade · Nov 04, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage. Conviction, while Ive used it in my VoS build (don't like specing into 4 att lines for tactics), WY and SY is a better choice because of the party aspect if you want defense. /W is needed for some Utility that is lacking (Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, Flail), don't know why a Derv doesn't have it, its needed for a melee class to be effective, but.........
Heart of Fury is a decent IAS, but flail beats it even with no strength.

Now, I normally use Hench Heroes with my derv, so I tend to run my VoS high defense build, while retaining some decent DPS, since the AI likes to go after human players in the first place, I draw aggro, and my monks don't have LoD (Henchies, my heroes are offensive minded), so self-defense is almost required to survive, but, in an all human group (which is what I think you guys are arguing about), with ppl who at least know what they're doing, a Derv going full offensive is more effective then one diverting to carry some self defense, unless your healers are incompetent, but I digress. Prot Spirit, SY, TNTF, and LoD make self-defense no where close to being needed on any other party member imo.
Dervs don't have room for self defense until there is something decent within the mysticism line for self-healing (faithful is lame, vigor is lame, balth rage is unreliable, meditation can remove prot spirit if not careful, watchful is good, but it isnt self defense at that point). If you are utilizing the wind or earth prayers for self defense, your sacrificing potential damage, again, because you are sacrificing skill slots and att points. AoM is the only self defense skill that is good (and then some, well, in PvP), but AI doesn't always pressure the melee with conditions like you would see in PvP, so a monk with some decent cond removal can usually keep you up and running in PvE.

jesh · Nov 06, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

1.Great Dwarf Armor
2.Avatar of Lyssa
3.Mystic Regeneration
4.Eternal Aura
5.Aura of Holy Might
6.Heart of Fury
7.Resurrection Signet
8.Optional

I just wanted to point out that there's no attack skills on here. Mmkay, that's all.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Nov 06, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

lol Guru is arrogent. also AoD is fun to use with victorious sweep. Defense is still good even when you use monks. If you are a front liner you should always use a defensive skill. It helps to keep pressure off of monks if your tank decides to go aggro every living thing in world.

Darkside · Nov 06, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I just wanted to point out that there's no attack skills on here. Mmkay, that's all.

Wow good eye brainwave. I have two optional slots since I don't normally run a res. Those two spots are for my attack skills. Also with the build in question you don't need many attack skills since Aura of Holy Might in combination with Heart of Fury make your normal attacks do a lot of damage very quickly.

Str0b0 · Nov 07, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade

Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage.

The reason to run balanced builds as opposed to flat out offensive builds is that I have yet to meet any monk or two monks competent enough to handle a front line. It's always an energy issue or they move to the mid line and fux the aggro up so it breaks off the front and then they get killed and they yell at you for not holding aggro and blah blah blah. It's just a lot easier for me to avoid all that failure and run a balanced build instead of loading up on offensive skills and hoping for the best. So while in theory all of Burst Cancel's points are valid in practice it is rare to find a monk capable enough to handle you without self healing.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Nov 07, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

In pve

Balance>>>>>>>>>>>>>>offensive>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Defensive

Magikarp · Nov 07, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade

Burst Cancel is right, but arguing that you cant use some build is moot since anything works in PvE, only difference is efficiency. Efficiency wise, why would you use a Dervish's self heal with a cap at 20hp per second when LoD (I think this skill should be nerfed and rit party heals and other prof self heals need to be brought up, but thats for a different day) can practically do that, and for 5 energy, and do it for the whole party; Not to mention it takes up valuable slots and att points which could be used to improve your damage. Conviction, while Ive used it in my VoS build (don't like specing into 4 att lines for tactics), WY and SY is a better choice because of the party aspect if you want defense. /W is needed for some Utility that is lacking (Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, Flail), don't know why a Derv doesn't have it, its needed for a melee class to be effective, but.........
Heart of Fury is a decent IAS, but flail beats it even with no strength.

i can barely remember what this thread is about lol.. but this is the best description of why earth/wind healing dervs fail to the epic level imo. self healing like no tomorrow, could survive a nuclear fall out if need be as long as its not direct constant damage, the derv can hold its own for a while, but sacrifces only having one or two attack skills, and ZERO team utility, where as warriors, paragons, and rangers offer tons of team based utility skills whether it be shouts, chants, spirits ect. even sins do with their ability to kill dangerous targets quickly, to defer further mega-damage. other than imbue, imo, dervs lack almost any team quality.... oh.. and EDA. but thats just my opinion