Curse

~ Dan ~ · Oct 11, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Ok I already went over this in the other thread but apparently it bears repeating here.

That was kinda the reason i made this. Hopefully this thread can make clear to everyone that AoB = crap. So that i can have a link to ping when someone tells me it's good

Saves it spiraling into tons of other threads where [skill]Avatar Of Balthazar[/skill] isn't the center of the topic.

draxynnic · Oct 12, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

So that's all great stuff unfortunately for AoB you can get a decent armor boost from Conviction or from Great Dwarven Armor. You can get holy damage from Aura of Holy Might or Heart of Holy Flame. Dervish's also have access to a lot of speed boost skills in the wind prayer line...so if you really wanna run faster you can always do that. (personally I don't care how fast I walk/run). That is what kills Balthazar. You can get all the bonuses using other skills...without wasting an elite spot.

On the other hand, with Balthazar you can get all three without using three slots - and all at the same time, which you can't get by combining Conviction with Pious Haste. It also has a slight armour advantage over Conviction, counterbalanced by not having the other effects of Aura/Heart.

That's where the advantage lies - it's collapsing multiple boosts into one skill (two if you count Eternal Aura to keep it up). You're basically trading your elite slot in order to have up to two extra normal slots. Of course, if you're not using all three boosts, or if you want, say, Holy Might for its other effects, its efficiency drops remarkably - although the holy damage is probably the least important (Balthazar is still provides better armour than Conviction on the armour side, and on the speed side doesn't require Wind Prayers or losing your armour bonus in order to run as the Conviction/Pious Haste combination would require. So by that measure, Balthazar/Eternal Aura is probably better than Conviction/Pious Haste in the same way Energy Drain is better than Energy Tap... although admittedly it's been a long time since I've used EDrain).

Stormlord Alex · Oct 12, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

On the other hand, with Balthazar you can get all three without using three slots - and all at the same time, which you can't get by combining Conviction with Pious Haste. It also has a slight armour advantage over Conviction, counterbalanced by not having the other effects of Aura/Heart.

That's where the advantage lies - it's collapsing multiple boosts into one skill (two if you count Eternal Aura to keep it up). You're basically trading your elite slot in order to have up to two extra normal slots. Of course, if you're not using all three boosts, or if you want, say, Holy Might for its other effects, its efficiency drops remarkably - although the holy damage is probably the least important (Balthazar is still provides better armour than Conviction on the armour side, and on the speed side doesn't require Wind Prayers or losing your armour bonus in order to run as the Conviction/Pious Haste combination would require. So by that measure, Balthazar/Eternal Aura is probably better than Conviction/Pious Haste in the same way Energy Drain is better than Energy Tap... although admittedly it's been a long time since I've used EDrain).

Or, in less, yet harsher words... "a bunch of weak buffs hobbled together to form a weak elite".

Seriously, there's nothing that Balthazar does that's worth wasting your elite on - especially when you could be spamming Eviscerate whilst being immortal, or just plain pwning face.

... Dervs have really kick ass elites. People who consider AoB even remotely worthwhile in the face of Mel or Reaper's need removing from the gene pool, for the sake of humanity.

boarderx · Oct 12, 2007, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

It isn't a good elite option for new players, since new players can cap all elite Forms by the time ethey get to Balthazar, along with some non-form elites. Why encourage new players to use a bad skill while they learn how to create builds?...it'll just set them into a downward spiral of bad choices imo.

Dude, i know its not a great skill at all, but im talking about players that dont understand much about the game, and just spam skills cuz they are on their skill bar, not everyone is born able to figure out RPG games quckly, this is a skill where you dont do as much in game but theyll like it cuz it looks cool and runs fast and give them more survivability, im not trying to encourage the use of the skill, im simply saying its a skill that new players like to use.

anyway, im in the same boat as you, im not a fan of the skill, lol.

boarderx · Oct 12, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

.......face.

roflmao nice

Tyla · Oct 12, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

On the other hand, with Balthazar you can get all three without using three slots - and all at the same time, which you can't get by combining Conviction with Pious Haste. It also has a slight armour advantage over Conviction, counterbalanced by not having the other effects of Aura/Heart.

That's where the advantage lies - it's collapsing multiple boosts into one skill (two if you count Eternal Aura to keep it up). You're basically trading your elite slot in order to have up to two extra normal slots. Of course, if you're not using all three boosts, or if you want, say, Holy Might for its other effects, its efficiency drops remarkably - although the holy damage is probably the least important (Balthazar is still provides better armour than Conviction on the armour side, and on the speed side doesn't require Wind Prayers or losing your armour bonus in order to run as the Conviction/Pious Haste combination would require. So by that measure, Balthazar/Eternal Aura is probably better than Conviction/Pious Haste in the same way Energy Drain is better than Energy Tap... although admittedly it's been a long time since I've used EDrain).

the buffs of AoB are almost never needed anyway.

oops,maybe i should say:the buffs of AoB are NEVER needed anyway.

Darkside · Oct 12, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Ok I already went over this in the other thread but apparently it bears repeating here. If a skill is worse than the alternatives then that makes that skill a bad skill. Worse than the alternatives means it is inferior and inferior = bad. It is not possible to defend AoB by saying, "It's not bad just the other skills of the same type are better." That means it is BAD. It's not rocket science. It is simple English.

I still think even though some of the other avatars are better that Balthazar is an ok skill it doesn't down right suck. There are plenty of other elites in the game that are a lot worse then this one. It's still useful and like drax said it's an easy way to combine several skills and save space on your skill bar for whatever else you might need/want. Looking at the avatars from a purely PVE perspective I would have to say Grenth is the worst avatar of the bunch. Lowest duration of all the avatars, cold damage (meh) and how often are you gonna need to be stripping enchantments off a target?

Tyla · Oct 12, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I still think even though some of the other avatars are better that Balthazar is an ok skill it doesn't down right suck. There are plenty of other elites in the game that are a lot worse then this one. It's still useful and like drax said it's an easy way to combine several skills and save space on your skill bar for whatever else you might need/want. Looking at the avatars from a purely PVE perspective I would have to say Grenth is the worst avatar of the bunch. Lowest duration of all the avatars, cold damage (meh) and how often are you gonna need to be stripping enchantments off a target?

enchant stripping is always useful...it removes positive effects from the enemy,which is useful.
the duration of the skill renders it unusable

Darkside · Oct 12, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

enchant stripping is always useful...it removes positive effects from the enemy,which is useful.
the duration of the skill renders it unusable

Even if Grenth had a longer duration I wouldn't run it on my skill bar just to get cold damage and enchantment removal. I'd rather just bring a long a hero with shatter enchantment, Chilblains, etc...

Str0b0 · Oct 12, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I still think even though some of the other avatars are better that Balthazar is an ok skill it doesn't down right suck. There are plenty of other elites in the game that are a lot worse then this one. It's still useful and like drax said it's an easy way to combine several skills and save space on your skill bar for whatever else you might need/want. Looking at the avatars from a purely PVE perspective I would have to say Grenth is the worst avatar of the bunch. Lowest duration of all the avatars, cold damage (meh) and how often are you gonna need to be stripping enchantments off a target?

Uhh yes AoB does downright suck. Grenth was never conceived as a PvE avatar and it's painfully obvious so saying,"AoB doesn't suck because Grenth sucks worse." isn't a valid position either. I have never advocated that you ned to take several skills to make up for the buffs of AoB. In fact my position has been that of the buffs AoB does give only the armor is remotely useful and even that is usually outclassed by earth prayers skills that are in your bar anyway. I guess though I'll have to break this down again.

The Speed Buff

This is arguably the most useless buff that AoB gives you. I have never in my entire time of playing this game ever needed a speed buff for PvE play, not even for those few missions where you have to catch someone or what have you. The only use for a speed boost in PvE is if you are running someone somewhere and running someone to a location IS NOT PvE. So you can forget about taking any skills to augment your speed because it's a pointless buff.

The Holy Damage

Why? Who cares about holy damage? Undead are not so prevalent in the game that holy damage should be something you are that concerned about. Other than that there is no point in a holy damage conversion. It's easier and more effective to take another avatar like say Lyssa and just put Heart of Holy Flame on there. Sure it can be stripped but even if it is stripped you cause burning at the end. Lyssa+Holy Damage vs undead = much more impressive damage than AoB ever thought about. Granted this is substituting a skill for AoB but the times that you really need holy damage are so few and far between that it barely impacts your bar.

The Armor Buff

Sure you get +40 armor which cuts damage by half. That's all fine and dandy but armor doesn't do anything to mitigate degen which can be caused by poison, burning, bleeding, or hexes. all of these things are prevalent in just about every area of the game. I won't even go into the various armor ignoring damages that one encounters in the course of the game. In the end though this is the only remotely worthwhile buff that AoB gives so you are using it for just the +40 armor and in comparison to the other avatars and elite skills at your disposal that's just weak. By and large Mystic Regeneration covers most of the damage you take making the issue of armor a non issue. Since Mystic Regen is in most dervishes bars anyway you're just double covering an already more than effective skill with a crappy elite.

The Conclusion

AoB only gives you one worthwhile buff while the other avatars give you at least two. This makes it an inferior choice in comparison to the other avatar skills. It offers you no damage buffs at all which makes it inferior to the scythe elites. It offers no condition for you to spread around making it inferior to EDA and even Grenth's Grasp. Even without the speed boost VoS makes a better runner because of spell immunity. In fact I would go so far as to say that even Grenth's Grasp is better than AoB because at least it offers a cripple to keep foes in range of your attacks instead of a crappy speed boost that allows you to chase down one foe at a time. AoB is inferior to the other elites and is only better than conviction by a slim margin. What part of that is not flat out bad? It is inferior to every other dervish elite and is so close in effect to a non elite skill that is worth it to take the non elite armor buff and pick another elite. That my friend is a BAD skill.

SpeedyG99 · Oct 12, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

i honstly think, however hated, AoB is 2nd only to melandru in pve....

BlackSephir · Oct 12, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

And why is that?
If it's hated and people are saying it's less useful than the others then, well... maybe they have reasons?

Monk of Myrodin · Oct 12, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

For the most part everyone including me (I prefer Lyssa) here agrees that AoB is not the best avatar to chose for pretty much any situation. Yet I find it funny that any time I take my dervish out in pve and join a group, I am labeld a noob for not taking it because its the, and I quote, "Uber leet avatar that anyone that knows anything about dervishes should know to take." Granted most of the people that have say this have probably never ran a derv. Anyone else get this?

Dr Strangelove · Oct 12, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

It's an elite that essentially does nothing, and it prevents you from taking other dervish elites, which are completely insane.

The reason there's so much hate for it is that everyone and their mother brings it, making PuG dervishes essentially worthless.

iridescentfyre · Oct 12, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

and how often are you gonna need to be stripping enchantments off a target?

Errrm, maybe extremely often in PvP?

Tyla · Oct 12, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Even if Grenth had a longer duration I wouldn't run it on my skill bar just to get cold damage and enchantment removal. I'd rather just bring a long a hero with shatter enchantment, Chilblains, etc...

it was used ALOT pre-nerf in pvp as far as i knew
but the enchant removal IS so easy to get when shatter enchantment+chilblains cost more energy and longer recharge if you need to enchant remove in succession

Str0b0 · Oct 12, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyG99

i honstly think, however hated, AoB is 2nd only to melandru in pve....

I honestly think you're mistaken. The hierarchy of PvE avatars goes something more like this; Melandru,Lyssa,Dwayna, and then AoB and AoG are ties for fourth place uselessness.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 12, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I honestly think you're mistaken. The hierarchy of PvE avatars goes something more like this; Melandru,Lyssa,Dwayna, and then AoB and AoG are ties for fourth place uselessness.

It's also worth noting that there's a ton of non-avatar elites that also outclass balthazar. (Reaper's sweep anyone?)

Str0b0 · Oct 12, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Oh I covered that in my post just a couple of posts up from this. But as far as the avatars goes that hierarchy stands sound I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk of Myrodin

For the most part everyone including me (I prefer Lyssa) here agrees that AoB is not the best avatar to chose for pretty much any situation. Yet I find it funny that any time I take my dervish out in pve and join a group, I am labeld a noob for not taking it because its the, and I quote, "Uber leet avatar that anyone that knows anything about dervishes should know to take." Granted most of the people that have say this have probably never ran a derv. Anyone else get this?

Actually no I never get this. In fact more often than not groups will kick an AoB dervish unless they are just all noobs. Most people prefer to have a Melandru dervish in their group. Very few people know about lyssa's impressive damage.

Darkside · Oct 13, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Uhh yes AoB does downright suck. Grenth was never conceived as a PvE avatar and it's painfully obvious so saying,"AoB doesn't suck because Grenth sucks worse." isn't a valid position either. I have never advocated that you ned to take several skills to make up for the buffs of AoB. In fact my position has been that of the buffs AoB does give only the armor is remotely useful and even that is usually outclassed by earth prayers skills that are in your bar anyway. I guess though I'll have to break this down again.

The Speed Buff

This is arguably the most useless buff that AoB gives you. I have never in my entire time of playing this game ever needed a speed buff for PvE play, not even for those few missions where you have to catch someone or what have you. The only use for a speed boost in PvE is if you are running someone somewhere and running someone to a location IS NOT PvE. So you can forget about taking any skills to augment your speed because it's a pointless buff.

The Holy Damage

Why? Who cares about holy damage? Undead are not so prevalent in the game that holy damage should be something you are that concerned about. Other than that there is no point in a holy damage conversion. It's easier and more effective to take another avatar like say Lyssa and just put Heart of Holy Flame on there. Sure it can be stripped but even if it is stripped you cause burning at the end. Lyssa+Holy Damage vs undead = much more impressive damage than AoB ever thought about. Granted this is substituting a skill for AoB but the times that you really need holy damage are so few and far between that it barely impacts your bar.

The Armor Buff

Sure you get +40 armor which cuts damage by half. That's all fine and dandy but armor doesn't do anything to mitigate degen which can be caused by poison, burning, bleeding, or hexes. all of these things are prevalent in just about every area of the game. I won't even go into the various armor ignoring damages that one encounters in the course of the game. In the end though this is the only remotely worthwhile buff that AoB gives so you are using it for just the +40 armor and in comparison to the other avatars and elite skills at your disposal that's just weak. By and large Mystic Regeneration covers most of the damage you take making the issue of armor a non issue. Since Mystic Regen is in most dervishes bars anyway you're just double covering an already more than effective skill with a crappy elite.

The Conclusion

AoB only gives you one worthwhile buff while the other avatars give you at least two. This makes it an inferior choice in comparison to the other avatar skills. It offers you no damage buffs at all which makes it inferior to the scythe elites. It offers no condition for you to spread around making it inferior to EDA and even Grenth's Grasp. Even without the speed boost VoS makes a better runner because of spell immunity. In fact I would go so far as to say that even Grenth's Grasp is better than AoB because at least it offers a cripple to keep foes in range of your attacks instead of a crappy speed boost that allows you to chase down one foe at a time. AoB is inferior to the other elites and is only better than conviction by a slim margin. What part of that is not flat out bad? It is inferior to every other dervish elite and is so close in effect to a non elite skill that is worth it to take the non elite armor buff and pick another elite. That my friend is a BAD skill.

Yah I'm sure you know exactly what the designers were thinking when they decided what abilities to bestow upon the avatar of grenth. I'm not doubting they had PVP in mind I'm just saying that there is no reason to speculate either way. I never said that AoB doesn't suck because Grenth is worse I was just pointing out that in PVE it's an even more useless avatar yet never gets bashed as bad as AoB.

I'm not sure why you *have to break it down again* my opinion won't change and no matter what you post. Want me to re-post what I already did as well? Lets find out how many times we can re-word our arguments.

I already understand what you're saying and I agree with it for the most part. I just don't think the skill down right sucks and needs to be flushed like a dead fish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

Errrm, maybe extremely often in PvP?

Yah perhaps you should go back and read my post I was referring to PVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk of Myrodin

For the most part everyone including me (I prefer Lyssa) here agrees that AoB is not the best avatar to chose for pretty much any situation. Yet I find it funny that any time I take my dervish out in pve and join a group, I am labeld a noob for not taking it because its the, and I quote, "Uber leet avatar that anyone that knows anything about dervishes should know to take." Granted most of the people that have say this have probably never ran a derv. Anyone else get this?

I do get comments like that sometimes. Mostly being called a noob for running Lyssa.