Curse

moko · Nov 11, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Too much quote wars. Bad players will never learn, and will continue to argue while being blinded by their beliefs.

what divine said.

LightningHell · Nov 11, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

By "infrequent/small packets hitting a few people," I did not mean infrequent and/or small in the absolute sense, like fighting level 3 devourers in Old Ascalon. Rather, I meant it in the relative sense in terms of prot's energy efficiency as a function of packet size and/or frequency. As in: "not frequent and/or big enough to get prot's energy efficiency up above heal's (but still frequent and/or big enough to kill someone if you don't do anything about it)".

In short, nobody is in danger of dying?

Jaigoda · Nov 11, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

He means places where damage comes in 40-50 packets at a time, which makes PS/SB pointless, while quite easily handled by healing. For instance, I was doing HM ascalon, and the grawl warrior dudes were hitting for about 40-50 damage, not enough so trigger SB, but enough to make me need to majorly spam ZB. Of course, I also used guardian, which was nice, but still not enough to take away the threat. Basically, he's just trying to say that hybrid isn't always the way to go.

Also, I think that having a full healer and a fuller protter is more effective than two hybrids. First, the attributes have to be spread out more (either a 12-9-9 or a 11-10-10 setup), which makes the skills at least slightly less effective. Second, if you have two hybrids, most likely you're going to overlap enchantments at some point or another (you both put a Guardian on someone, wasting one of them), while you'd never have such a problem with a healer and a protter. Third, similar to the second reason, is that you can overlap heals. If both hybrids use LoD when only one was needed, that's wasted time, energy, and recharge. The same with DK, ELight, HWhisper, etc. With a healer and a protter, there is no overlap at all. One focuses and getting the bars up, one focuses on stopping the bars from going down. It's as simple as that.

Ensign · Nov 11, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think I must have chosen my terminology poorly, since I managed to get myself misunderstood by at least two people...I thought it could be safely assumed that everyone would know I wasn't talking about damage that could just be ignored.

No, you're just overestimating the necessary response to what really is non-pressing damage. If that's really the type of damage coming in, then you're not describing anything that can't be adequately addressed by Dwayna's Kiss between wands; certainly nothing that requires you to do anything other than spot heal duty during an otherwise meaningless encounter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In order to make a hybrid bar 'useless', you have to tailor the situation pretty carefully

One of the funny things about tailoring a situation to get around Aegis / SoA / Prot Spirit is that you virtually always end up making Reversal of Fortune a phenomenal skill. One of the main reasons you won't catch me running a second spot heal is that whenever your one spot heal isn't good enough, RoF outperforms any other spot heal you could put on your bar by leaps and bounds. The only exception to this I know of is against the rare toucher mobs. Regardless of whether or not a given Protection skill is good in a given situation, there isn't anything in the game that a 3rd spot heal helps against.

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Originally Posted by Jaigoda

He means places where damage comes in 40-50 packets at a time

RoF is king. Cycle it with your spot heal and any applicable Prot. Win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Basically, he's just trying to say that hybrid isn't always the way to go.

If that's his point he's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Second, if you have two hybrids, most likely you're going to overlap enchantments at some point or another (you both put a Guardian on someone, wasting one of them)

Only if you don't bother to coordinate bars at all, which you're certainly doing if you're talking about any pair of Monks. You double up Aegis, otherwise your guys have different small prots, different large prots, with some spot heals and removals. Done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

while you'd never have such a problem with a healer and a protter. Third, similar to the second reason, is that you can overlap heals.

That's only ever really a problem if your Monks are bad. With two real Monks on a team there's enough prot flying around that spot heals are only used on really low targets anyway, who can take more than one heal. What you end up doubling up on is removal for the most part; usually in a given pair of Monks one of them will be Mend happy, so you have to feel that out a little bit in the first couple minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

With a healer and a protter, there is no overlap at all.

That's a huge liability. When the team's bars are in a state where there's not a lot of need for healing, the healer is dead weight; when the bars do need the healing coming in, the protector can't help. Inefficiencies from overlap are minuscule compared to the power lost by running weaker, rigid bars that cannot adapt to a situation.

Div · Nov 11, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's a huge liability. When the team's bars are in a state where there's not a lot of need for healing, the healer is dead weight; when the bars do need the healing coming in, the protector can't help. Inefficiencies from overlap are minuscule compared to the power lost by running weaker, rigid bars that cannot adapt to a situation.

Probably the most important point in the argument against running one heal monk and one prot monk. You never want to get in a situation where a heal monk is sitting there not doing much outside of using WoH on a target with > 80% health, or in a situation where health bars are so low the prot monk is spamming prots to bring up red bars with the divine favor bonus (aka playing like dunkoro).

I don't see how people are bad enough to keep arguing after reading Burst and Ensign's responses. I thought it was obvious enough, and even if it wasn't, it would be after reading their posts.

For the record, stealth, we beat HM Slaver's with two hybrid LoD bars with dwaynas against those touchers. Maybe your monks were bad, but I personally never had any trouble running hybrid bars against those guys, and hybrid bars are much stronger in any other scenario in there. And that's with a crazy warrior that likes to aggro about 20 things at a time too.

You can't see me · Nov 11, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

If you knew anything about Under Used Monk Skills, you would welcome the change to LoD with open arms, and give it to at least one of your monks.

~Taken From Wiki:

Holy Haste:

For 1...48 seconds, your Healing Prayers Spells cast 50% faster. This Enchantment ends if you cast another Enchantment.

Light of Deliverence

All party members are healed for 5...57 Health

Heal Party:

All party members are healed for 5...57 Health

Glyph of Lesser Energy

For 15 seconds, your next two spells cost 10...16 less Energy to cast.

These four spells will keep a party alive easily against 90% of mobs. You don't even have to sit within the agro range. Monks can now literally stand back and do massive party healing for the cost of 5 energy and a 1 second cast time, never having to come within agro range, target a certain player, or worry about the high energy cost or high casting time.

This also chains well with:
~High Casting Time Healing Prayers Ressurection Skills
~Low Casting Time healing Prayers Spells, now gives you about 1/4 cast time, making you a very hard inturupt target.

You can keep Holy Haste up indefinetly, and the need for enchantments for healing is totally debatable. I welcome all changes to monk skills.

moko · Nov 11, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Holy Haste is bad cause you can't use enchants. read the topic as to why hybrid is better, bye.

only time i'd use it is as a third monk..and three monks mean you're bad.

arcady · Nov 12, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Under the old LoD, I found it rarely useful.

If the fight was going well, my prots kept more than one or two people from ever going below 80%. If it was going bad enough for several to be below 80%, LoD just didn't heal enough to stop the incoming wipe.

While I kept it on Dunkoro, I noticed he almost never used it. When I made a hybrid and put it on myself, I found the scenario above. I switched my own monks back to full Prot builds with ZB, or Life Sheath, or even (while leveling) Divine Boon and no elite - all of which I got more out of than LoD.

As for the new LoD, on Dunkoro I've swapped in Word of Healing and Heal Party. I'm working under the assumption that I will not need a party wide heal often but I will need a good 'spike removal' for when my Prots on my own toon or Tahlkora fail to cover.

Perhaps the real impact of this nerf is that there will no longer be 'one build to rule them all' for Healing and Hybrid monks - but rather a variety of solutions.

mr_stealth · Nov 12, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In other words, your argument is predicated on people playing badly? I'd also like to point out that in situations like pulse AoE, where the pulses are small enough that prots don't trigger, the best skills in the game to deal with the damage aren't even in the monk lines - they're warrior/paragon shouts. A single WY! can reduce pulse AoE damage to the point where SoA/Shielding Hands nullifies it completely, and LoD is enough to mop up.

Armor increasing shouts and wards are nice for reducing damage like that, but that SoA is still only helping one person while the others are still taking damage that LoD isn't nearly enough to "mop up". And those wards/shouts are also helping to make your other prots less effective.

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Another issue in this case is that you keep talking about how prot wouldn't be able to do anything in X specific situation, or Y other situation, but you haven't shown how healing would be any better. If your entire team is standing in 40-point pulsed AoE, what healing bar are you going to be using?

The point is that any heal, even a whimpy little Orison, is better than a Spirit Bond that won't do anything at all. The healer (or a more heal heavy hybrid with few prots) will have more tools to deal with the situation.

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WoH pretty much means that there's no point in bringing many other heals because their efficiency is terrible in comparison, and you're going to be mashing on WoH as much as you can.

Just because another heal isn't as efficient doesn't mean its bad to bring it. Sometimes being the most efficent (cost per hp gained) takes a back seat to getting the job done and actually saving people. That point would be valid if WoH recharged instantly, but that's not the case.

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Your example of one person taking ele damage, one person being degened, and one person with a warrior train on them is actually the hybrid's forte. The person tanking the ele gets a prot spirit or spirit bond to reduce most of the incoming damage, the person with the warrior train gets Guardian/SoA and RoFs, and LoD cleans up all three at once.

I actually said one person standing in AoE, and another taking degen and damage. That person standing in AoE is dead because PS/SB did nothing, LoD might have covered player two's degen, but he needs something for that damage. Player three with a warrior beating on him will probably survive with Guardian and some RoFs(assuming the they arent wasted on a wand hit from something else), but wouldn't it be better to save him with a WoH and still have a couple other heals powerfull enough to save the other 2 as well. With your current setup, all you have is a RoF that might work, a Dwayna's Kiss that will work(at least "as advertised", and likely more due to hexes/enchans), and an LoD that I'm wondering why you're still using. You need more skills like Kiss here, which means more healing skills.

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Prot also 'just works', if its being used correctly.

Prots are all conditional, but they have very strong effects when their conditions are met, and hybrid bars are constructed so that you can cover as many common situations as you can.

Those two statements contradict each other, and the latter points out exactly what is making a hybrid bar less effective in a situation where you already know what you are going to be up against. You are still stuck on the idea that prot>heal always, and that the elite must be LoD because its the current PvP build. PvE isn't PvP, you know what you are going to be up against and its best to build accordingly. Being setup optimally for the current situation is better than being ready to hand anything in an adequate fashion. Healing and prot both have their place, but don't be blinded by the preconception that prot must be the dominant side of the monking strategy.

«Ripskin · Nov 12, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

So I just tried a glimmer/WoH backline in gvg.

Glimmer is still bad, I don't have time to read through all these pages and find out everyone has already said that, but... it's bad.

So we're now running RC/WoH Woh being the infuser.

Burst Cancel · Nov 12, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

This is my last round of quote wars; I'm done with this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

Armor increasing shouts and wards are nice for reducing damage like that, but that SoA is still only helping one person while the others are still taking damage that LoD isn't nearly enough to "mop up". And those wards/shouts are also helping to make your other prots less effective.

First, if the damage is already so low that you're not triggering prots like Spirit Bond, armor shouts and wards definitely decrease the damage to the point where LoD is enough. I know we're having a theory wars argument, but you still can't have it both ways. Is it a lot of damage, or is it a little? Pick one.

Second, there aren't any healing skills that a hybrid couldn't run here that would do better. Healing Seed? Okay, I can slot that. I'm not sure whether I actually would in an actual run, considering everyone should be moving out of AoE, but for the sake of argument, there's no reason I couldn't run that skill.

Third, the point of the hybrid bar is to cover different situations with different spells. Situations that make prot spirit and spirit bond less useful are making RoF and SoA more useful. Are you going to argue that a healer uses his whole bar all the time? No, that's silly - you use the best skills for the situation. Watch Yourself! isn't going to help that much against boss Channeled Strike, which is what PS is for.

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The point is that any heal, even a whimpy little Orison, is better than a Spirit Bond that won't do anything at all. The healer (or a more heal heavy hybrid with few prots) will have more tools to deal with the situation.

Read above. If Spirit Bond isn't triggering, RoF and SoA suddenly become really good.

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Just because another heal isn't as efficient doesn't mean its bad to bring it. Sometimes being the most efficent (cost per hp gained) takes a back seat to getting the job done and actually saving people. That point would be valid if WoH recharged instantly, but that's not the case.

With WoH on the bar, how many other skills could you bring? You are going to use WoH every time it comes up if you're not bad. Given that spells have 0.75s aftercasts, and most heals are in the 0.75~1s cast time range, how many other spells could you cast before you can hit the WoH win button again? How many of them are better than Kiss and RoF?

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I actually said one person standing in AoE, and another taking degen and damage. That person standing in AoE is dead because PS/SB did nothing, LoD might have covered player two's degen, but he needs something for that damage. Player three with a warrior beating on him will probably survive with Guardian and some RoFs(assuming the they arent wasted on a wand hit from something else), but wouldn't it be better to save him with a WoH and still have a couple other heals powerfull enough to save the other 2 as well. With your current setup, all you have is a RoF that might work, a Dwayna's Kiss that will work(at least "as advertised", and likely more due to hexes/enchans), and an LoD that I'm wondering why you're still using. You need more skills like Kiss here, which means more healing skills.

Let's give you the situation I actually see: the person standing in AoE isn't dead because he moved out of it, the guy taking degen and damage is alive because prots handle the damage and LoD cleans up the rest, and the guy with warriors on him survives because Guardian and RoF are incredible against melee.

Furthermore, nothing stops me from running WoH on a hybrid bar (have you seen GvG recently?) If I run WoH, RoF, and Kiss, then what? You want more heals?

Quote:

Those two statements contradict each other, and the latter points out exactly what is making a hybrid bar less effective in a situation where you already know what you are going to be up against. You are still stuck on the idea that prot>heal always, and that the elite must be LoD because its the current PvP build. PvE isn't PvP, you know what you are going to be up against and its best to build accordingly. Being setup optimally for the current situation is better than being ready to hand anything in an adequate fashion. Healing and prot both have their place, but don't be blinded by the preconception that prot must be the dominant side of the monking strategy.

The statements are not contradictory, because of the part you failed to bold, specifically, "if used correctly". Again, I'm not going to use PS unless it's going to work. People who PS when the target isn't going to take big damage are just bad at GW. It has nothing to do with the skill.

A hybrid bar is put together so that the prots cover all of the reasonable situations, and you have a few heals to actually move bars up. That's it. Read my post again - nobody is advocating taking a GvG bar into situations where you know it isn't going to work. My point about prots is that they're far more effective than heals in the situations they were designed to address. Therefore, by taking a spectrum of heals and prots, you can make sure you're always using skills that have the highest effectiveness possible.

Okay, I'm done here. Good luck, have fun, and all that jazz.

Ensign · Nov 12, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

For the record, stealth, we beat HM Slaver's with two hybrid LoD bars with dwaynas against those touchers.

In fairness I'm pretty sure Yichi had Whisper over RoF on that level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And that's with a crazy warrior that likes to aggro about 20 things at a time too.

Eh, crazy Warrior = SoA and grab a coke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

The point is that any heal, even a whimpy little Orison, is better than a Spirit Bond that won't do anything at all.

Those of us who are not flaming retards have eight skills on our bars. We are also able to use them appropriately.

The questions that we're waiting for you to answer are, what targeted heal do you want to have on your bar *in addition* to RoF and Kiss? (substitute Kiss for Zealous Benediction, Word of Healing, Gift of Health, or any other targeted heal if you prefer). What is that skill going to let you do that the aformentioned pair do not?

Snow Bunny · Nov 12, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Under the old LoD, I found it rarely useful.

If the fight was going well, my prots kept more than one or two people from ever going below 80%. If it was going bad enough for several to be below 80%, LoD just didn't heal enough to stop the incoming wipe.

While I kept it on Dunkoro, I noticed he almost never used it. When I made a hybrid and put it on myself, I found the scenario above. I switched my own monks back to full Prot builds with ZB, or Life Sheath, or even (while leveling) Divine Boon and no elite - all of which I got more out of than LoD.

As for the new LoD, on Dunkoro I've swapped in Word of Healing and Heal Party. I'm working under the assumption that I will not need a party wide heal often but I will need a good 'spike removal' for when my Prots on my own toon or Tahlkora fail to cover.

Perhaps the real impact of this nerf is that there will no longer be 'one build to rule them all' for Healing and Hybrid monks - but rather a variety of solutions.

LoD was maintenance for the party. It worked nicely because you just spammed it when you could really. In the 5 seconds between LoDs, you'd throw around guardian, place an RoF, and maybe PS something if you were going against bosses or heavy focus firing.

LoD wasn't made to power through damage through healing, which Glimmer at a 1sec recharge and WoH at ungodly amounts of healing are obviously meant to do. It was meant as a very nice umbrella to shield the party, to provide a bit of relief when it was needed, and generally keep the party up and running.

mr_stealth · Nov 12, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

First, if the damage is already so low that you're not triggering prots like Spirit Bond, armor shouts and wards definitely decrease the damage to the point where LoD is enough. I know we're having a theory wars argument, but you still can't have it both ways. Is it a lot of damage, or is it a little? Pick one.

LoD being enough against a reduced damage AoE is an arugable point, but it will at least be of good use in that situation. But its not always enough, because you can, and often do, have both types of damage to deal with. The ele thats dishing out Sandstorms will likely have other similar AoEs and skills like Earthquake or Stoning that do heavier damage. This just further confuses the situation because you have to determine who is taking damage from what source. The person standing in that AoE may or may not be taking 60 or more damage, you don't have a way to to know for sure. And who knows which player(s) that ele is going to decide to use his other skills on. Yes, situations like this are absolutely horrible for a monk no matter what the build, but they do happen(and a lot more than anyone would ever want). I would rather have a wider selection of skills that I know will work as advertised instead of skills that might work even better, but have a chance to fail and do nothing to help.

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People who PS when the target isn't going to take big damage are just bad at GW. It has nothing to do with the skill.

This falls into what I said above. You don't know who is going to be the target(s) untill the damage has already happened. Monsters have a nasty habit of throwing damage around on different targets, or even running in closer and going after someone that was previously out of range(your healing and enchants make them aware of you even when you are out of range). The only way to ensure the target of that hit is protted is to prot all of the possible targets, which just isn't practical.

mr_stealth · Nov 12, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The questions that we're waiting for you to answer are, what targeted heal do you want to have on your bar *in addition* to RoF and Kiss? (substitute Kiss for Zealous Benediction, Word of Healing, Gift of Health, or any other targeted heal if you prefer). What is that skill going to let you do that the aformentioned pair do not?

The fact that you blindly assume that RoF is even on the bar is what I'm getting at here. And why is WoH only considered as a substitute to Kiss instead of in addition to it? Quite frankly, I would prefer to replace that RoF with Whipser or Orison. I do have RoF when I'm using a prot build, and all too often I see it absolutely wasted when it triggers on some nothing little wand hit instead of the 50+ dmg impact 1/4th of a second later. I see that happen enough that I'm amazed that so many people consider RoF a replacement for another skill, that while may have less potential, will do what it says.

I guess it doesn't really matter since I'm a flaming retard, but at least I'm not blind.

Ensign · Nov 12, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

The person standing in that AoE may or may not be taking 60 or more damage, you don't have a way to to know for sure.

We have a very good method for knowing if they're taking 60 or more damage from a single hit - their health bar. Big chunks = big damage numbers. Small chunks = small damage numbers. Not only that, but from seeing health bars take hits from certain enemies you can anticipate how much damage that same enemy, or similar enemies, will do in the future. What, that enemy that used Sandstorm is an Ele? Don't those usually have other big damage skills? It just used Sandstorm on that Necro on our team? Hmmm, I wonder what is going to happen next. This is really hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

And who knows which player(s) that ele is going to decide to use his other skills on.

They stick to their target until they aggro onto something significantly softer or at lower health. If you put a Warrior in first to aggro you know exactly where the initial aggro is going to be. It's obvious when they break aggro if you watch the screen. When they break aggro they're going to consistently go after low health soft targets, preferably ones in balls. You'll find out pretty early on who is going to take hits; if you're playing with henchies it's almost invariably going to be the hench Monk, failing that one of the other caster henchies. With a full hero or player team the same rules apply, and you can figure out who is getting targeted first pretty quickly. Look at where people are standing and remember who is most squishy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

This falls into what I said above. You don't know who is going to be the target(s) untill the damage has already happened.

Gee, if only there was a way to tell who the monsters were attacking before the red bars started to move. If only there was an interface element where you could see where the monsters were and what they were doing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

or even running in closer and going after someone that was previously out of range

If only there was some way to see that happen as it was happening! Then you might be able to tell who they are chasing before they get there!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

The only way to ensure the target of that hit is protted is to prot all of the possible targets, which just isn't practical.

You're right, there's no way to tell what is going on before the red bars start to move. I don't understand how people can use protection skills with this grossly insufficient red bars interface. All you see is bars moving, you don't know which one is going to move next or by how much! The only sane answer is to run Glimmer of Light. Then you can Glimmer all the bars and keep them full.

Kale Ironfist · Nov 12, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

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I guess it doesn't really matter since I'm a flaming retard, but at least I'm not blind.

.
.
.

I think Ensign nailed it.

mr_stealth · Nov 12, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

We have a very good method for knowing if they're taking 60 or more damage from a single hit - their health bar. Big chunks = big damage numbers. Small chunks = small damage numbers.

The damage that was being discussed was in the range near that 60hp break point, already making it a tough call whether its really about or below it. And with players having HP that can vary by a large amount, that bar is a rough guide at best.

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When they break aggro they're going to consistently go after low health soft targets, preferably ones in balls.

Look at where people are standing and remember who is most squishy.

While they do often go after the person with lowest HP (they even seem to know who has the lowest max HP, something that you likely do not know), they may only use one skill before strangely deciding to change targets to someone with full HP and knock out 1/3-1/2 of it in a single hit. If it was truely consisten they would continue in their attempt to kill the player(s) they have already weakened instead of picking a new target will higher, or even full HP.

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Gee, if only there was a way to tell who the monsters were attacking before the red bars started to move. If only there was an interface element where you could see where the monsters were and what they were doing...

This is completely true for melee, because they have to get to someone before they can do any damage, giving you time to react. But casters and other ranged attackers can hit anyone that happens to be in there range, which is likely the entire party. And even melees have a tendency to change targets frequently, only hiting each once or twice.

Grammar · Nov 12, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Damn Ensign, that post was made of pure, 100% natural LOL sauce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The questions that we're waiting for you to answer are, what targeted heal do you want to have on your bar *in addition* to RoF and Kiss? (substitute Kiss for Zealous Benediction, Word of Healing, Gift of Health, or any other targeted heal if you prefer). What is that skill going to let you do that the aformentioned pair do not?

Yup, discussion over. Can we end this thread now please?

Winterclaw · Nov 12, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

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The only way to ensure the target of that hit is protted is to prot all of the possible targets, which just isn't practical.

There's this thing called a front line and a very good reason why it is called a front line. Ideally in PvE that makes a grand total of one potential target in the beginning. In PvP it's a little more nuanced, but learning those little nuances is a part of learning to monk in PvP. Make your best guesses as to who's going to be attacked, and if you mess up you can still make a difference.

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And why is WoH only considered as a substitute to Kiss instead of in addition to it?

Kiss has lower healing on average, but in theory can do more and it doesn't burn an elite. WoH can usually do more healing if your target is under 50% health, but only then and it takes up an elite. And you have a limit to the number of skills on your bar so you can't exactly waste them with redundant skills.