Curse

mr_stealth · Nov 10, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

I never really liked LoD in PVE. In areas with heavy degen or with strong AoE spikes from monsters, it wasnt enough to recover from party wide spikes due to low heal effect and 5 second recast.

I have to agree with that statement. LoD isn't going to be much help when a lvl 28 ele decides to unleash 200-300 dmg on 3-4 players/heroes. I would rather save a couple of them with more powerfull single target heals than heal them all for 70~hp(and no DF), only to have the next hit kill them anyway(if they didn't die during its 2 second cast). LoD is nice for countering degen/mild dmg, but I very rarely find it usefull/powerfull enough to be worth my elite slot.

I've found that Healing Ribbon can be usefull for when several party members get hit with an AoE. Doesn't take up the elite slot, heals for more, cost less then Heal Party, and has a quicker cast. You can cast Ribbon + another single heal in the time it takes to cast LoD/Heal Party. One person gets a large amount of healing, and the other 2 still get more than either full party heal can offer. Its not a full party heal, but unless you are playing alone (all hero/hench) its easy to keep the party spread out enough to avoid them all being victim of the same AoE.

This is speaking strictly for PvE only though(since this is a PvE forum). I rarely PvP, so I will refrain from commenting on any of these skills' usefullness in that aspect of the game.

horseradish · Nov 10, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

As I said in my post, the only way for Glimmer to be viable is if it successfully condenses your bar down to 2 healing skills.
You say it can, I say it can't. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I just have a hard time believing that only Glimmer + Infuse is enough healing to get the job done. From my experience, it is not. Maybe my opinion will change on this in the future, but for right now I'm still not a fan.

It really just depends on the party as a whole anyways.

And it's not like Glimmer is the only choice.

As long as we understand each other, gg

Mark Nevermiss · Nov 10, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

(emphasis added)

LoD didn't require you to be close to anyone. This isn't Heal Area we're talking about here.

If you're ever getting "party spiked" to the point where you need 300 points of healing to the whole party, you have a different and more significant problem than LoD not being able to keep up.

LoD wasn't designed to save you from OMGWTFBBQ damage. It was designed to mop up the stuff that prot didn't catch, and it was damned good for its job.

You misunderstand me, mate. I really know the difference between LoD and Heal Area/Jamei's Healing Circle, but doing Abaddon's mission in NF, I noticed the healing from HP reached further than LoD [this was many months ago].
I may be wrong, but I could almost be certain that was the case.
Btw, how does prot catch the damage in areas such as the one I just mentioned? And I could quote several similar ones

Burst Cancel · Nov 10, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

You specifically said that using LoD requires you to put yourself "needlessly" in "harms way". This is plainly false, regardless of whether HP reaches further or not (I don't know if it does). The effect on both is sufficient that you'll never need to be within range of an enemy to use it.

I think a better question is: how is prot *not* catching the damage in those areas? Specifically what is special about those areas that you need a 300+ point party-wide heal to survive? If you're eating boss fireballs on multiple members of your party, you need to rethink how you're approaching the game.

Mark Nevermiss · Nov 10, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

OK I would like to see your approach at Abaddon's Gate then

Kale Ironfist · Nov 10, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Prot stuff, then LoD what goes through. Simple, no?

Sure, the above is just a gross simplification, but it's what you're supposed to be doing.

Spazzer · Nov 10, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I did Abaddon's Gate right after the skill update. I didn't even use any of the new changes, I just brought 3 dual boons (you know, smiters+divine). There was a 4th monk in the party and I don't know what he was running, but we were a murder-train all the same.

This LoD nerf hasn't changed my PvE monking one bit.

Burst Cancel · Nov 10, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

OK I would like to see your approach at Abaddon's Gate then

I mean absolutely no disrespect, but Abaddon's Gate is a trivial mission, for the following reasons:
- You can stay out of range of everything Abaddon does except Words of Madness.
- Words of Madness itself can be cleaned up by LoD. Bring two.
- The Graven Monoliths are underpowered monsters because there are only two of them per group and they are far too easy to kill. Their Mesmer aspect is singularly worthless, as most of the damage comes from degen. The Dervish and Paragon forms can be protted through like any other physical damage dealer.
- Torment Claws are a potential problem if they spawn at inconvenient times. However, their only threatening ability, Torment Slash, can be easily interrupted with Lightbringer's Gaze, or can be protted through.

You can get Masters on this mission in both NM and HM with a 2- or 3- monk backline and any damage dealers you want. Armor-ignoring damage works best, but you can take typical fire eles or something similarly uninspired and still finish in time.

Turtle222 · Nov 10, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

hmmm LoD mesmers perhaps?

mr_stealth · Nov 10, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Prot stuff, then LoD what goes through. Simple, no?

Sure, the above is just a gross simplification, but it's what you're supposed to be doing.

What you're "supposed to be doing" is whatever is appropriate for the situation at hand. In many cases, blindly applying the current popular PvP build to a PvE scenario is not the thing to do.

Sk8tborderx · Nov 10, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

What you're "supposed to be doing" is whatever is appropriate for the situation at hand. In many cases, blindly applying the current popular PvP build to a PvE scenario is not the thing to do.

Since when? The most efficient PvE builds are modified PvP builds.

«Ripskin · Nov 10, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Since when? The most efficient PvE builds are modified PvP builds.

...I use the shock axe build on my warrior...in pve.

mr_stealth · Nov 10, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Since when? The most efficient PvE builds are modified PvP builds.

There are plenty of situations where the prot skills in a mixed build are rendered completely useless, removed before than can be usefull, or even cause more damage.

There are also situations where prot just isn't enough. Prot skills are great on a tank that is up front with most/all of the aggro, or when an overly powerfull melee monster comes back and starts beating on a caster. But, what about when a couple eles let loose on your casters with a firestorm/sandstorm/churning earth/etc that does 75+ dmg per hit. You can get one person protted to give them a chance to get out without taking too much dmg, but you are still left with several people that just lost a lot of HP. LoD at its max attribute isn't enough to cover a single hit like that, so its going to take several casts of LoD to get your party back to full HP. A monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster. Sure, its likely to cost more energy but thats better than having 1/2 of your party at low HP and easily wiped out by the next AoE.

As much as I like prot and its advantages, I also understand that it does have its weaknesses and that it isn't always best to rely on it alone.

Racthoh · Nov 10, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

But, what about when a couple eles let loose on your casters with a firestorm/sandstorm/churning earth/etc that does 75+ dmg per hit.

Why is your group balling up when you know you're about to fight an enemy with AoE spells?

Antheus · Nov 10, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

As far as PvE goes LoD is still perfectly viable. It's not like interrupts suddenly become a problem when you go from 1c to 2c. Multiple LoDs stacking better now is a net plus.

Holy haste + LoD works well. Hopefully the party healer knows to keep the distance to not get stripped or shattered.

It doesn't change the fact it won't save the group from party wide damage. It's still mostly useful for party-wide degen.

Quote:

Why is your group balling up when you know you're about to fight an enemy with AoE spells?

H/H....

Quote:

firestorm/sandstorm/churning earth/etc that does 75+ dmg per hit

And those hit about 5 times in 5 seconds. LoD, even instant cast, won't save you.

Burst Cancel · Nov 10, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

The argument that heal could pull your team through meatgrinders that prot couldn't is without merit except in very specific situations such as Mallyx, where enchantments in general are rendered useless/harmful.

In an AoE situation, LoD is the strongest healing skill available. Even post nerf, where LoD is only 66 points at 14 attribute, it heals your party for 66*8 = 528. WoH, by comparison, can only manage 236 maximum at 14 attribute, so you'd have to cast it twice for each cast of LoD in order to achieve the same healing strength. Given the now 2s casting time on LoD, the skills achieve rough numerical parity, since LoD is one cast every 7s, and WoH is one every 3.75. Pre-nerf LoD was absolutely untouchable however, at 75*8 = 600 every 6s.

Your claim that "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster" is simply not credible. Spirit Bond or SoA can, on their own, negate pulsed AoE spells like Sandstorm or Churning Earth. Prot Spirit can prevent 340 damage of a 400-damage fireball that a healing monk would have to heal through with brute force. If strong damage mitigation cannot prevent your party from being mauled by AoE, exactly what are the miraculous healing skills that could succeed where prot failed?

Quote:

As much as I like prot and its advantages, I also understand that it does have its weaknesses and that it isn't always best to rely on it alone.

The entire point of a hybrid bar is to address those weaknesses by not using prot alone.

Chthon · Nov 10, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In an AoE situation, LoD is the strongest healing skill available. Even post nerf, where LoD is only 66 points at 14 attribute, it heals your party for 66*8 = 528. WoH, by comparison, can only manage 236 maximum at 14 attribute, so you'd have to cast it twice for each cast of LoD in order to achieve the same healing strength. Given the now 2s casting time on LoD, the skills achieve rough numerical parity, since LoD is one cast every 7s, and WoH is one every 3.75. Pre-nerf LoD was absolutely untouchable however, at 75*8 = 600 every 6s.

Your claim that "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster" is simply not credible.

I'm not sure who are responding to here, but I'll field this one.

LoD's (potential) healing per energy remains in a league of its own. LoD's (potential) total healing per time is also very good. However, LoD's healing per person per time is craptastic, and this nerf just made it a hell of a lot worse. LoD moves bars very, very slowly.

In fact, at rank 15, casting on the recharge, the new LoD has exactly the same healing per person per time as 5 regen. And you know what people say about healing breeze.... (Heh... I find it kinda ironic that some of the same people who swear by LoD also insist that regen/heal over time is such a bad mechanic they'll never use it...)

Since LoD moves bars so very slowly, you've got two options to deal with it:
1) Prot to the point that bars move down even slower than LoD moves them up.
2) Leave the bars for people who aren't in immediate danger alone and use something with better healing/person/time to quickly push up the ones that are.
(Of course, these aren't mutually exclusive options.)

Now, as for whoever claimed that "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster," that is true in two related senses:
1) So long as only 2 or 3 bars are dipping at a time (which is true for a fair portion of PvE play), a dedicated healer "can get the party's HP recovered much faster" than a LoD.
2) So long as only 2 or 3 people are staring death in the face at any given time, a dedicated healer can get the bars that matter "recovered much faster."

I don't think the claim "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster" is true in the absolute way it was stated. But the general idea it's trying to express is true in many, possibly most, PvE circumstances. And it certainly is not "simply not credible."

Burst Cancel · Nov 10, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm not sure who are responding to here, but I'll field this one.

LoD's (potential) healing per energy remains in a league of its own. LoD's (potential) total healing per time is also very good. However, LoD's healing per person per time is craptastic, and this nerf just made it a hell of a lot worse. LoD moves bars very, very slowly.

In fact, at rank 15, casting on the recharge, the new LoD has exactly the same healing per person per time as 5 regen. And you know what people say about healing breeze.... (Heh... I find it kinda ironic that some of the same people who swear by LoD also insist that regen/heal over time is such a bad mechanic they'll never use it...)

Since LoD moves bars so very slowly, you've got two options to deal with it:
1) Prot to the point that bars move down even slower than LoD moves them up.
2) Leave the bars for people who aren't in immediate danger alone and use something with better healing/person/time to quickly push up the ones that are.
(Of course, these aren't mutually exclusive options.)

The comparison of LoD to regen skills is spurious. First of all, LoD is equivalent to regen on every member of the party for 5e, and requires only one person to be casting the spell. Taking a +5 regen skill on each member of the party consumes 7 more skill slots, requires 8 people to be casting spells, and for much more than 5e. Second of all, LoD is not an enchantment. Its effect cannot be nullified by removing it, and it will not 'overheal' if the target is healed to full sometime during the enchantment's duration. Thus, LoD consistently achieves close to its theoretical efficiency if used correctly.

That aside, I agree that LoD is not enough in heavy damage situations. However, the issue my post was addressing was whether there are any better options.

Quote:

Now, as for whoever claimed that "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster," that is true in two related senses:
1) So long as only 2 or 3 bars are dipping at a time (which is true for a fair portion of PvE play), a dedicated healer "can get the party's HP recovered much faster" than a LoD.
2) So long as only 2 or 3 people are staring death in the face at any given time, a dedicated healer can get the bars that matter "recovered much faster."

I don't think the claim "a monk focused more on healing can get the party's HP recovered much faster" is true in the absolute way it was stated. But the general idea it's trying to express is true in many, possibly most, PvE circumstances. And it certainly is not "simply not credible."

If only 2 or 3 bars are dipping, a hybrid monk is categorically stronger. Against a 400-damage Channeled strike, a healer has to heal all of that damage. A hybrid puts PS on the target and forgets about them, letting LoD mop up the excess later. Hybrids can use Aegis, Guardian, and SoA to reduce a lot of incoming melee damage, rather than simply healing through it - again, allowing LoD to mop up the excess. There's also the issue that people are far less likely to die to huge boss spikes if they're protted - healing must be done after the fact, whereas prot simply prevents the damage.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Playing a hybrid allows you to use prots to mitigate damage to several party members and then use a party-wide heal to mop up. In the event that something big got through, you have Dwayna's to move individual bars up at a faster rate. My argument is that there are no (or very few) situations where a pure healing bar would save a team where a hybrid bar could not.

The original argument that mr_stealth was presenting was that healing monks are likely superior to hybrids in many situations. You have to read my response in light of that argument in order to understand my point.

mr_stealth · Nov 10, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In an AoE situation, LoD is the strongest healing skill available. Even post nerf, where LoD is only 66 points at 14 attribute, it heals your party for 66*8 = 528. WoH, by comparison, can only manage 236 maximum at 14 attribute, so you'd have to cast it twice for each cast of LoD in order to achieve the same healing strength.

66*8 is a lot of healing if you look at it that way, but 66HP isn't going to save any of the players/heroes standing in that AoE if they don't get out very quickly. More powerfull heals on a couple is better than a weak heal to all that ends up doing no good when they all still die.

Quote:

Spirit Bond or SoA can, on their own, negate pulsed AoE spells like Sandstorm or Churning Earth.

SoA could help reduce the damage on ONE person(10s recharge), but would take several additional hits before it builds up enough reduction. Spirit Bond is pretty much the only prot skill that is of any use in that situation. Its great for someone standing in AoEs that are powerfull enough to trigger it. And its recharge is short enough that you can use it to save at least a couple people.

Quote:

Prot Spirit can prevent 340 damage of a 400-damage fireball that a healing monk would have to heal through with brute force.

That is, of course, assuming that you are keeping PS on the entire midline. Keeping PS on 4 players would take 16 seconds and 40 energy to get everyone enchanted, and the 1st PS would be wearing off shortly after the 4th cast. I do this myself in some cases, but I have to choose who to keep protected because keeping PS on everyone is just too costly. IMO, dealing with that type of area is more suited for a bonder and a full heal monk.

All the prot in the world isn't going to do anything for the damage that has already been taken. Its a great way to stop additional damage from killing them, but you still need to get them back to full health. A hybrid can get that done, but a healer can do it a lot faster.

DokkyDok · Nov 10, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

On LoD - Haven't tried it since the nerf, can't say much.

Healer's Boon - Never cared for it, as it would discourage protection usage. And after testing it, I didn't get a use out of it. I wasn't willing to let the red bars drop enough to get it's full use...

Glimmer - Love it, ran it with a condition & hex removal skills. Threw in Vig Spirit, Divine Spirit, & CoP just to play around, with Dark Escape & Return. This was in an AB.

WoH - Had a hard time remembering it was now also a self-heal, and still adjusting.