Curse

ogre_jd · Feb 29, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Care to show us evidence that it's *because* of the lack of tanking that the runs're fast?

Stormlord Alex · Feb 29, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Care to show us evidence that it's *because* of the lack of tanking that the runs're fast?

The new guy has a point

And... there was some thread somewhere, or probably a few threads, discussing Ursan or tank-n-spank and the duality and all that jazz, were people had posted times for beating DoA and shizzle, and essentially, Ursan and duality (imbagon + good bars and tear through shit) times were faster than tank n spank times in every case.

Can't find the threads though, they're likely long dead in Riverside

Beomagi · Feb 29, 2008, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by behling

so im doing the secondary profession quest now. in prophecy. i tried all of them, but i can't make up my mind on wats gd for my warrior. because they only gave a few skills so imho i tink its not enuff when making a big decision. i need all the pros help here. i play most mmorpgs solo and pve only. thx would like to hear your reason of selection. thx.

You can get ALL and change when the need arises.

SERIOUSLY. GET ALL, And experiment!

If not for any other reason than getting skill so that your heros have a wider range of choices available.

Personally, I like antidote signet over the popular necro's plague touch for dealing with conditions. plague touch can have you in a panic if you run out of energy, and I really don't care if i'm dazed. You CAN come up with certain pet builds that are fun and somewhat effective - say, using ferocious strike for energy/adr and damage to help spamming your own attack. A pet REQUIRES skillls though. Charm + comfort aren't so much skills are they are plain necessary.

This is prophecies pve after all, no need for the cookies.

W/E can help with your farming. I used to farm elona reach minotaurs. whirlwind+aftershock. I'd go in with gladiators, build adrenaline, use bonetti's for energy, ww/aftershock, other shield stance goto 0 and do this for exp and drops. Don't forget the power of conjure skills - these used to be much less powerful early on when prophecies was around. You may find you like whirlwind JUST for the ability to knock down any foe next to you thats attacking. It's cheap too.

I actually never liked running w/mo. There's a few nice skills, especially for farming. I just never used it effectively.

Mesmer - if you're soloing, you MAY find the need to take a skill because the henchmen/heros are not doing what they should. Say you're doing a mission where there's a couple nasty boss spellcasters. something like Backfire may hurt your build as a general warrior but can help on a specific mission. Hexbreaker is always nice too.

But, I can't stress enough. Get them all - AND cap skills. You can run pure warrior, and very efficiently too. It's options that you and your heros can use later. Your choice depends on what you're doing. GW builds are usually highly specific.

isamu kurosawa · Mar 01, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

Since the begining of GW, Warrior has been an effective tank. To deny the fact that a Warrior is extremely capable of preforming one of the roles that it was intended to play, is nieve at best.

........

Since the beggining we had people who previously played other games playing gw as if it was seid other game. In these other games the warrior type class had to tank due to the structure of the game.
Guild Wars was designed to be more direct combar oriented which is why warriors are much more capable of dealing damage, tanking was the opposite of the devs concept for the game.

To furthar discourage the use of tanking in the game there where various AI updates in relation to target selection as well as AoE scatter, Yet people without the skill to play properly held onto the method as a crutch.
These are the same people who complain the game is too hard in some areas or that some areas take too long to complete and should be adjusted.

Tanking was always possible and can be done by any profession. It is not however an effective means of play.

Tanking is rigid, unforgiving of human error and slow. It cannot adapt to any situation that might arise and is genrally subpar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

Warriors can tank, deal damage, shutdown, pressure, be a runner, and dance like a pimp. Why do you box yourselves in to one little aspect? If that's what you want to do, fine. But quit trying to confine every new player into the same little chamber.

This is why warriors typically have the "meat head" reputation. You guys think so 2-D.

A decent warrior build can deal damage, shutdown, pressure and spike all in one. A tank tanks, thats it. How is using a more versatile setup thinking in 2d while using the most rigid method available any better?

If i had the time i'd record a video of somewhre like slavers exile being done in a decent team to show the effectiveness. I don't have the time nor the patience however as people who use tank setups refuse to learn regardless of the evidence of past video and screenshot posts.

Crom The Pale · Mar 01, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Fastest and easiest time I've ever had in FoW was when I took 4 Wars 1Ranger/pet and 3 Monks. 0 tanking involved we just chewed up foes fast and furiously.

Keep in mind there are also areas where tanking requires far more effort than the standard builds do. Try running a stance tank in Tomb of Primevil Kings or Enchanted tanks in mesmer heavy maps. These are rarer ocurances but they do happen.

behling · Mar 01, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beomagi

You can get ALL and change when the need arises.

SERIOUSLY. GET ALL, And experiment!

If not for any other reason than getting skill so that your heros have a wider range of choices available.

Personally, I like antidote signet over the popular necro's plague touch for dealing with conditions. plague touch can have you in a panic if you run out of energy, and I really don't care if i'm dazed. You CAN come up with certain pet builds that are fun and somewhat effective - say, using ferocious strike for energy/adr and damage to help spamming your own attack. A pet REQUIRES skillls though. Charm + comfort aren't so much skills are they are plain necessary.

This is prophecies pve after all, no need for the cookies.

W/E can help with your farming. I used to farm elona reach minotaurs. whirlwind+aftershock. I'd go in with gladiators, build adrenaline, use bonetti's for energy, ww/aftershock, other shield stance goto 0 and do this for exp and drops. Don't forget the power of conjure skills - these used to be much less powerful early on when prophecies was around. You may find you like whirlwind JUST for the ability to knock down any foe next to you thats attacking. It's cheap too.

I actually never liked running w/mo. There's a few nice skills, especially for farming. I just never used it effectively.

Mesmer - if you're soloing, you MAY find the need to take a skill because the henchmen/heros are not doing what they should. Say you're doing a mission where there's a couple nasty boss spellcasters. something like Backfire may hurt your build as a general warrior but can help on a specific mission. Hexbreaker is always nice too.

But, I can't stress enough. Get them all - AND cap skills. You can run pure warrior, and very efficiently too. It's options that you and your heros can use later. Your choice depends on what you're doing. GW builds are usually highly specific.

oooooo. i've already gone with W/E, gonna try that out. heheh.

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Since the beggining we had people who previously played other games playing gw as if it was seid other game. In these other games the warrior type class had to tank due to the structure of the game.
Guild Wars was designed to be more direct combar oriented which is why warriors are much more capable of dealing damage, tanking was the opposite of the devs concept for the game.

I disagree. I believe they wanted that to be one of several possiblities for warrior. After all, GW is all about diversity. Why just have another, plain-jane, damage-dealing class?

Quote:

To furthar discourage the use of tanking in the game there where various AI updates in relation to target selection as well as AoE scatter, Yet people without the skill to play properly held onto the method as a crutch.
These are the same people who complain the game is too hard in some areas or that some areas take too long to complete and should be adjusted.

Tanking was always possible and can be done by any profession. It is not however an effective means of play.

Tanking is rigid, unforgiving of human error and slow. It cannot adapt to any situation that might arise and is genrally subpar.

You can't really believe that they nerfed AoE just because of tanking... Every single class has some form of AoE and enemies are obviously set to pick a single target above just scattering.

Tanking is effective. You saying it like it's a fact does not make it so. It's not the only way to go, but I never said it was.

Tanking has set-backs just like all other PvE tactics. Nerfs make sure it stays that way.

Quote:

A decent warrior build can deal damage, shutdown, pressure and spike all in one. A tank tanks, thats it. How is using a more versatile setup thinking in 2d while using the most rigid method available any better?

If i had the time i'd record a video of somewhre like slavers exile being done in a decent team to show the effectiveness. I don't have the time nor the patience however as people who use tank setups refuse to learn regardless of the evidence of past video and screenshot posts.

A tank tanks because that is the style of play. That means there are 7 other classes that can focus on doing their job at peak performance.

It's funny that you say others refuse to accept other options, because that's EXACTLY what you are doing. You want it one way or no way. I'm saying that their are several effective ways to play. Your the hard-headed one.

Infact, the people on this forum are the most hard-headed and stubborn people of all of GW. That's why your always referred to as elitests. Just like snobby, pretentious high schoolers. Maybe I'm too old for this place or something.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

I disagree. I believe they wanted that to be one of several possiblities for warrior. After all, GW is all about diversity. Why just have another, plain-jane, damage-dealing class?

Why just have another tank you can find in every other Online RPG known to internet ready humans?

Defensive tanks are literally a dime a million on the gaming world today as a whole. There's an infinite [literally] number of guides of rpgs about how you can defensively tank and be pretty much invincible in some games [the fact that you can't hurt even a mouse is kinda not worth it in my play style]

plain-jane? There's nothing plain about the Guild Wars warrior when in comparison to other RPGs at all. GW warriors kill things. If not faster than a caster [finally], they can kill and be extremely safe as well. Nearly Godlike?

I highly disagree. A warrior that's crippled, hexed, snared is just as useless as well... A defensive tank...

I've never taken part in these no-tank Underworld parties but I have a stronger belief in that 99% offensive builds will do zones faster than one using a tank. Enemies in PvE [and apparently, even Hard mode, which I have trouble facing solo], are dying fast enough to never need a tank that uses defensive skills.

Watch Yourself gives everyone a minor damage shield and Save Yourselves turns everyone into warriors and then some in terms of armor. Those two skills are all the tank a party would need I imagine...

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Why just have another tank you can find in every other Online RPG known to internet ready humans?

Defensive tanks are literally a dime a million on the gaming world today as a whole. There's an infinite [literally] number of guides of rpgs about how you can defensively tank and be pretty much invincible in some games [the fact that you can't hurt even a mouse is kinda not worth it in my play style]

plain-jane? There's nothing plain about the Guild Wars warrior when in comparison to other RPGs at all. GW warriors kill things. If not faster than a caster [finally], they can kill and be extremely safe as well. Nearly Godlike?

I highly disagree. A warrior that's crippled, hexed, snared is just as useless as well... A defensive tank...

I've never taken part in these no-tank Underworld parties but I have a stronger belief in that 99% offensive builds will do zones faster than one using a tank. Enemies in PvE [and apparently, even Hard mode, which I have trouble facing solo], are dying fast enough to never need a tank that uses defensive skills.

Watch Yourself gives everyone a minor damage shield and Save Yourselves turns everyone into warriors and then some in terms of armor. Those two skills are all the tank a party would need I imagine...

Yes, Save Yourselves is a working build. Not denying that. But your turning into everyone else.

Is that the only way to run PvE? No, not even close.

Tanking can be/is very valuable.

Why bring up other games? Every RPG is basically the same. What's your point? If we are just trying to break the mold, lets get the Nukers (every game has them) to only melee. Lets get Healers (every game has them) to only nuke....etc. In GW, every class can do something other then it was intended, but that DOES NOT mean that they all only have that one option.

I know! Since we are breaking the mold of other games, lets have a party of no healers, tanks, support, or damage dealers....Lets not bring any weapons, skills, or armor either.

Every class can play, at least, a couple roles very effectively. This isn't Sega, we can customize.

isamu kurosawa · Mar 03, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I was going to reply till i saw yukito has posted pretty much what i'd say.

You seem to think that people wanting to run a more versatile build over a tanking one makes them stuck on a single idea yet those builds could also if you wanted to, tank. sticking PS or spirit bond alone on a warrior would make them capable of tanking while still outputting massive amounts of damage.

A warrior is not just another damage dealing class. Before the new professions came out it was THE damage dealing class in the game, completely different from all other games and alot of people aggree thats a good thing.
The way armour is designed also makes warriors more useful for dealing damage than ele's unlike other games.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

Why bring up other games? Every RPG is basically the same. What's your point? If we are just trying to break the mold, lets get the Nukers (every game has them) to only melee. Lets get Healers (every game has them) to only nuke....etc. In GW, every class can do something other then it was intended, but that DOES NOT mean that they all only have that one option.

I bring up other games and yes every rpg is basically the same. It's all in degrees. Name me an RPG that doesn't involve equipment, leveling up, or skills? Hell, D&D, the RPG in 'pure' form to some people has all that at least.

Every RPG except Guild Wars, where warriors can do more than sit there and get raped while the rest of the party gets free hits. I don't appreciate being in that role, though my preference to beefy armor types is a weakness [in other rpgs, I like the heavy armor shield wielders even if they did do no damage, I still try to gear them with high strength stats or what not to hurt things]

Every RPG has a melee shield who doesn't contribute to damage. No RPG has a Guild Wars warrior capable of downing a foe in 3 or so hits using Deep Wound. I'm turning into everyone else using Save Yourselves? You're turning the GW warrior into the warrior every other RPG has.

At least with ONLY SY!! on your skill bar as a defensive skill you can still kill foes extremely quickly.

That's the point of the GW warrior. Again, my gripe is when you try different ways to deal damage [the core of the GW warrior], people rip you to pieces...

Different ways to tank? Been there done that. Play other rpgs... Unique ways to do damage? That's cool, but nobody likes it, ah well...

Hmm, I should add to your argument though, that if you brought a bunch of defensive skills, but still kept a spike of some sort, I personally wouldn't get too psychotic *like some board members here* if you brought an axe with Dismember / Triple Chop as your only attack skills. At least you're doing more damage than an 8 defense skill warrior.

Balancing between offense and defense is better than going all defensive. I feel as though you're advocating bringing ONLY defensive skills on a warrior and that a warrior that doesn't do deep wound is still capable of helping his party. For the record... he's not...

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

I was going to reply till i saw yukito has posted pretty much what i'd say.

You seem to think that people wanting to run a more versatile build over a tanking one makes them stuck on a single idea yet those builds could also if you wanted to, tank. sticking PS or spirit bond alone on a warrior would make them capable of tanking while still outputting massive amounts of damage.

A warrior is not just another damage dealing class. Before the new professions came out it was THE damage dealing class in the game, completely different from all other games and alot of people aggree thats a good thing.
The way armour is designed also makes warriors more useful for dealing damage than ele's unlike other games.

I'm not saying that at all. I tired of people shunning tanking saying it's not viable, when it is. Also, the rigid thinking I am referring to is Imbagon. Everyone on this forum runs that and only that, it seems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I bring up other games and yes every rpg is basically the same. It's all in degrees. Name me an RPG that doesn't involve equipment, leveling up, or skills? Hell, D&D, the RPG in 'pure' form to some people has all that at least.

Every RPG except Guild Wars, where warriors can do more than sit there and get raped while the rest of the party gets free hits. I don't appreciate being in that role, though my preference to beefy armor types is a weakness [in other rpgs, I like the heavy armor shield wielders even if they did do no damage, I still try to gear them with high strength stats or what not to hurt things]

Every RPG has a melee shield who doesn't contribute to damage. No RPG has a Guild Wars warrior capable of downing a foe in 3 or so hits using Deep Wound. I'm turning into everyone else using Save Yourselves? You're turning the GW warrior into the warrior every other RPG has.

At least with ONLY SY!! on your skill bar as a defensive skill you can still kill foes extremely quickly.

That's the point of the GW warrior. Again, my gripe is when you try different ways to deal damage [the core of the GW warrior], people rip you to pieces...

Different ways to tank? Been there done that. Play other rpgs... Unique ways to do damage? That's cool, but nobody likes it, ah well...

Hmm, I should add to your argument though, that if you brought a bunch of defensive skills, but still kept a spike of some sort, I personally wouldn't get too psychotic *like some board members here* if you brought an axe with Dismember / Triple Chop as your only attack skills. At least you're doing more damage than an 8 defense skill warrior.

Balancing between offense and defense is better than going all defensive. I feel as though you're advocating bringing ONLY defensive skills on a warrior and that a warrior that doesn't do deep wound is still capable of helping his party. For the record... he's not...

Actually, according what the party needs a warrior to run, they can easily have attack skills and def. skills. And not only a warrior can tank. Also, even if a warrior has 7 def. skills and 1 attack skill, the team can still be very effective, according to what enemies they are facing.

GW is very situational. That's why it's fun.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

And not only a warrior can tank. Also, even if a warrior has 7 def. skills and 1 attack skill, the team can still be very effective, according to what enemies they are facing.

That's not balanced at all... I do NOT agree.

No SINGLE attack skill can benefit a party.
At least, bare minimum bring a spike. I'll take Evis. Exe strike, Sever Gash Final, or Devastating Hamm Crushing Blow Mighty Blow.

I'm all for offensive warrior tanks.

I'm somewhat in favor of balanced tanks *50% attack, 50% everything else*

I'm NOT in favor of defensive oriented. Warriors DONT' NEED 7 SKILLS TO DEFEND. You should know that. And the majority will agree with me even if they didn't, I'd rather have balance over defensive.

*best defense is a good offense* applies best to warrior here.

P.S. Once everyone is under Save Yourselves, I believe everyone can tank...

isamu kurosawa · Mar 03, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

I'm not saying that at all. I tired of people shunning tanking saying it's not viable, when it is. Also, the rigid thinking I am referring to is Imbagon. Everyone on this forum runs that and only that, it seems.

the imbagon setup is one of many high damage passive defence options good players here run. If your H/Hing and your not playing para you can't take it anyway.

other examples are mind blast ele's fueling aegis, any number of hybrid Rt bars etc.

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

That's not balanced at all... I do NOT agree.

No SINGLE attack skill can benefit a party.
At least, bare minimum bring a spike. I'll take Evis. Exe strike, Sever Gash Final, or Devastating Hamm Crushing Blow Mighty Blow.

I'm all for offensive warrior tanks.

I'm somewhat in favor of balanced tanks *50% attack, 50% everything else*

I'm NOT in favor of defensive oriented. Warriors DONT' NEED 7 SKILLS TO DEFEND. You should know that. And the majority will agree with me even if they didn't, I'd rather have balance over defensive.

*best defense is a good offense* applies best to warrior here.

P.S. Once everyone is under Save Yourselves, I believe everyone can tank...

I was just using that as an example. But, I am ok with a pure def. tank, btw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

the imbagon setup is one of many high damage passive defence options good players here run. If your H/Hing and your not playing para you can't take it anyway.

other examples are mind blast ele's fueling aegis, any number of hybrid Rt bars etc.

This I agree with, versatility of options.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 03, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Wait.... you're arguing for diversity and the holy trinity setup in the same breath? Bwuh?

Cherng Butter · Mar 03, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

If we are just trying to break the mold, lets get the Nukers (every game has them) to only melee. Lets get Healers (every game has them) to only nuke....etc. In GW, every class can do something other then it was intended, but that DOES NOT mean that they all only have that one option.

Just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD. There's a difference. Tanks are generally crap when you could just run an efficient team build with layered defense.

Asha Rai · Mar 03, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Just to add to the debate, I just finished shards of orr in hm, and we walked over the place _using a tank_. Party was set up as:

ranger ursan tank
2 healers
rest holy damage (ray of judgment, signet of judgment, heart of holy flame / barrage)

To get an idea of the time we took to finish, we got to the end boss on level 3 in under 15 minutes (not including time spent on lvl 1 and 2; which was fast anyhow). The basic strategy was the tank rushes in, then the smiters follow 5 seconds later and pretty much instantly nuke the group of mobs. I cannot imagine a faster way of doing it.

Most of the people who deride the use of tanks here (bad players bla bla bla) rely on imbagons to keep themselves alive in hm areas. Nothing wrong with that, except it's as lame as the tanks and ursans they also mock. (They will often dress this reliance up with terms like layered / passive defense.)

A lot of the anti tank posts also assume some tank loaded up on stances, earth enchants, etc. I agree that is a very inflexible build, especially when they gimp their mspd. In practice though, a tank need only be able to take a number of hard hits (with the assistance of prot) in order to manage the agro, and make aoe much more effective. One person taking 90% of the hits makes a monks life orders of magnitude easier.

Tyla · Mar 03, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

How does that make tanks good?

People have done it balanced before, and walked all over the place, with no PvE-only skills.

Asha Rai · Mar 03, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

How does that make tanks good?

People have done it balanced before, and walked all over the place, with no PvE-only skills.

We aimed to finish the dungeon as fast as possible.
We did it extremely quickly, and our speed and success can be directly attributed to the tank.
Therefore, tank = good (in this scenario).

Can you be more specific on a balanced build that would do the job as effectively, or better than a tank based build? The metric for effectiveness would be time spent in dungeon; faster = better. (Also, we had 2 heroes in our group, and had to cater to the professions / skills available to the people in the group, so the team was far from optimal). Can you also detail how you would kill as fast without taking full advantage of aoe skills.