Curse

DarkSpirit · Feb 26, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Actually I find UB to be more difficult to use than a normal build in general PvE. Normal build is just c-space 1 2 3, in UB I need to switch weapons back and forth and because of its long recharge and I have to time my transformation back and forth in between monster groups. In other words, I cant stay as Ursan at all times if the monsters are too sparse and when I change back to man, my energy drops to zero.

Despite what anti-ursans claim, I dont find it easier to use UB at all. It takes more skills and hassel to time the transformations and energy with weapon switching. I dont even need to weapon switch in a normal build.

It is a common misconception that Ursan makes general PvE easier. In certain places, like DoA maybe, Ursanway (along with LB bonus) can be more powerful than many cookie-cutter builds but not in general PvE.

Abedeus · Feb 26, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Actually I find UB to be more difficult to use than a normal build in general PvE. Normal build is just c-space 1 2 3, in UB I need to switch weapons back and forth and because of its long recharge and I have to time my transformation back and forth in between monster groups. In other words, I cant stay as Ursan at all times if the monsters are too sparse and when I change back to man, my energy drops to zero.

Despite what anti-ursans claim, I dont find it easier to use UB at all. It takes more skills and hassel to time the transformations and energy with weapon switching. I dont even need to weapon switch in a normal build.

I hope you are being ironic. If not, you wasted about year of game.

DarkSpirit · Feb 26, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I hope you are being ironic. If not, you wasted about year of game.

Not at all. Many anti-Ursans either have not tried out the skill or are just exaggerating to jack up the prices of DoA items (i.e. they have a personal ulterior motive to ask for a UB nerf). For example:

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=664

and more proofs here where they link Ursan to DoA item prices. That is the perception some people have, so they are asking for an Ursan nerf with their own motive:

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5196 862

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5196 559

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5196 116

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5194 491

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5194 273

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...#post5193 933

Using UB is certainly more troublesome than c-space 1 2 3 for most cookie-cutter builds.

skanvak · Feb 27, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I am not a seller of high end item. In fact, I have never finished DoA before Ursan. But I still find that UB made the game too easy. Price is not the only argument. Price only reflect difficulty to get the item. It apply to the title too(which cannot be sold). Price drop is only one problem.

When I use UB, I don't switch weapon when it bother me. When I leave UB that is 90% of the time so just a mere 25s (recharge of 30s so 5s to get to the next group of monster) to wait before moving a gain, more than enough to recharge energy if you have not taken a skill that give back energy (and one give about 15 that is a lot for a warrior). And really I rarely drop for UB in HM, you just have to keep fighting, and as we do sweet tooth title we don't need to bother dying, so just rush each group fast.

Last evening we have made the 3 asura HM missions in about 1h with 2 bears. Boring, I won't do it again. Even a group of 5 has no chalenge.

And last thing : saying that normal build is just C-space 1 2 3 is just false. So I tend to believe that you are not honest in what you say, just defending you're legal cheat mode for yourself. Why most UB defender have only rethoric argument for it? I guess that they agree with us but they simply like the game easy for them. They prefer to made this competitive game a easy solo game (that will piss off the one looking for a challenge) than taking time to find a good easy solo game that fit their need.

No challenge = No game = No Fun = No player.

Then rework the three blessing (they should be on par)

Metalmaster · Feb 27, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Actually I find UB to be more difficult to use than a normal build in general PvE. Normal build is just c-space 1 2 3, in UB I need to switch weapons back and forth and because of its long recharge and I have to time my transformation back and forth in between monster groups. In other words, I cant stay as Ursan at all times if the monsters are too sparse and when I change back to man, my energy drops to zero.

Despite what anti-ursans claim, I dont find it easier to use UB at all. It takes more skills and hassel to time the transformations and energy with weapon switching. I dont even need to weapon switch in a normal build.

It is a common misconception that Ursan makes general PvE easier. In certain places, like DoA maybe, Ursanway (along with LB bonus) can be more powerful than many cookie-cutter builds but not in general PvE.

I never thought people could be that bad

DarkSpirit · Feb 27, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

No challenge = No game = No Fun = No player.

Then rework the three blessing (they should be on par)

If you want a challenge using UB, use it with H/H in general PvE. It is alot more difficult to manage your energy and recharge. Definitely more challenging than traditional c-space 1 2 3 builds like SF.

Bryant Again · Feb 27, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Actually I find UB to be more difficult to use than a normal build in general PvE. Normal build is just c-space 1 2 3, in UB I need to switch weapons back and forth and because of its long recharge and I have to time my transformation back and forth in between monster groups. In other words, I cant stay as Ursan at all times if the monsters are too sparse and when I change back to man, my energy drops to zero.

Despite what anti-ursans claim, I dont find it easier to use UB at all. It takes more skills and hassel to time the transformations and energy with weapon switching. I dont even need to weapon switch in a normal build.

Most, i.e. a very large majority, of the difficulty of Guild Wars lies in the construction of your team build. Ursan nearly eliminates that, all you need are 2 monks and the rest are Ursan of any profession.

Regarding weapon switching and "more skills:" You don't need them. Ursan works well enough on its own. And in a lot of cases you don't need to attack, and this allows me to use a build that has over 1k of health(!!!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is a common misconception that Ursan makes general PvE easier. In certain places, like DoA maybe, Ursanway (along with LB bonus) can be more powerful than many cookie-cutter builds but not in general PvE.

People talk about DoA and Ursan hand in hand because DoA is the hardest area in the game. If you can nearly steamroll the hardest area, what can't you plow through?

the_jos · Feb 27, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Last evening we have made the 3 asura HM missions in about 1h with 2 bears. Boring, I won't do it again. Even a group of 5 has no chalenge.

I'd have to say the Asuran HM missions are not on my list of hard missions.
I can steam those with a decent H&H team in about the same time.
It's a matter of knowing how to counter the environment and AI.
UB just makes that very easy, the 4 skills it provides do just that.

Quote:

If you can nearly steamroll the hardest area, what can't you plow through?

The question is not what area you can't plow through.
The question is, can that be done more efficient.

For DoA, there are most probably no more efficient ways of playing for PUG or inexperienced players than UB.
However, that's also because DoA is full of people looking for UB teams.
When UB teams take 1hr+ to form, they might not be the most efficient anymore.

For most other areas, I doubt it's really the most efficient.
When playing UB, the most efficient 'playing' team is 8 human.
With each human replaced with AI, it looses a efficiency.
Now in DoA it's easy to find those 5 UB and 3 monks, but for a vanq or HM mission it will be a lot harder.

For those, the most efficient team would be two humans with 6 heroes.
Not because they have superior gameplay, but because it allows the minimum time to find a team member and set a decent, flexible team.
UB is not the best skill in that situation to use on the humans as elite.

The biggest difference would be where 8 'bad' players are able to team up fast (guild/alliance, maybe PUG on forums) UB style.
Those players don't have to worry about team builds, but can still do anything they want.
But I doubt this will happen that often outside the elite areas.

That's because many people involved in HM already rely on fast teaming a lot.
That means H&H or 2 humans with 6 heroes.
If they can get a full HM team together fast, they are most probably in an alliance/guild that gives priority to HM and I think most of those would already be skilled enough to finish without UB.
They would use UB to make the team-build process faster.
I doubt many people have an efficient team build for Me, Mo, Mo, Ra, P, Rt, A, A ready in their templates...
Not even considering that players might not have unlocked all skills/elites.
If they do have a decent regular team build at hand, they will probably be more efficient using that and not UB.

As you can see, in general PvE UB might not be the best choice.

Bryant Again · Feb 27, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The question is not what area you can't plow through.
The question is, can that be done more efficient.

It's essentially the same thing. Efficiency = Effectiveness, which = How well and fast you're able to complete an area, including set up time and how easily the build plays out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

*snip* As you can see, in general PvE UB might not be the best choice.

The more pressing concern is that UB makes the game universally easy. It's a very simple path to take, regardless of who's "LFG" or not.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 28, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

I'd like to see this thread die, I'm tired of seeing it XD

As for the Ursan deal, I'm also tired of seeing people complain about it.
You can't argue that Ursan killed the economy, because the economy is already pretty much wacked.
I personally agree with the absolute ridiculous demand of Ursans in some areas. It's even spreading throughout normal PvE now. People don't want a warrior that's not running an ursan bar. Tie in the fact that Ursan (and other blessings) is bugged to permanently keep all skills mimicked with any mesmer mimic skill, and you got an absolutely ridiculous skill. (if it still is bugged, I'm not exactly sure.)

skanvak · Feb 28, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

It is no longer bugged.

As for the 2 UB + 6 Heroes that is our standard HM cleaning team, it works very well.

As for dying, those thread will die when the UB will be on par with raven and wolf blessing. I am not concern by economy per se.

Though, I agree, now the challenge is to make a skill bar better than UB

You see, I am not a for a total nerf, I don't care for a powerfull skill that help pass difficult spot. I bother that alone, it wipe the whole map. I really believe that it is the combinason of the effect that make UB too powerfull :
_ 2 attacks with claws means +2 energy, wolf/raven have only one and slow for raven
_ knock down interrupt, better than speed of attacks or not being knock down.
_ weakness catch all skill, blindness of raven is only anti contact/projectile, not the dangerous spell caster
The 2 skills allow for few damage from ennemy. If you swap any one of those special abilities with another ability of the other blessing you will have a more balanced set, without a great nerf of effect.

I rather have deep wound on UB and weakness on wolf for example. That will make UB damage oriented only.

DarkSpirit · Feb 28, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

People talk about DoA and Ursan hand in hand because DoA is the hardest area in the game. If you can nearly steamroll the hardest area, what can't you plow through?

What can't you plow through using Ursan? Slaver's Exile?

fenix · Feb 28, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Ursan is a blessing because Ursan = God mode. If you want to win GW easy, why NOT use it?

Even so, Paragons > Ursan, so the argument is irrelevant.

Abedeus · Feb 28, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Even so, Paragons > Ursan, so the argument is irrelevant.

Yeah, now tell that to Mrs. Pee You Gee.
People want Paragons in pugs just for refrains on his ursan...

DarkSpirit · Feb 28, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, now tell that to Mrs. Pee You Gee.
People want Paragons in pugs just for refrains on his ursan...

Actually I would go with an Imbagon. Makes the Ursans even more powerful.

skanvak · Feb 28, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Fenix, the question is not wether we use UB or not. The question is " Is a God Mode a good thing for GW".

I tend to think no. I no longer feel epic when finishing a zone, I feel like I just check another mark on my list of to do thing at home (you know the thing that are not glorious, because easy and harmless and that you have to do).

No risk = No Glory = No multi-player game
as UB => No risk => No multi-player game

This game was already not very difficult, mostly because game designer don't know what a really challenging difficulty is. They only do one time problem which once known are no longer anything near challenging. With the UB, the last drop of difficulty (even if gross) was withdraw of the game.

DarkSpirit · Feb 29, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Actually I dont know what so-called god mode you guys are talking about. I H/H with my caster using UB but I die alot more than when I play her as a caster.

How do you achieve this god mode with UB? Do I need to party with other humans? That would be sad....

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 01, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

If they want to get better at the game, why would they be using Ursan in the first place? They would learn a whole lot more if they didn't.

That's really a generalization that may befit yourself and many others, but certainly doesn't hold true for everyone. We all have different ways of learning and none of them are wrong, as long as your personal choice befits your preferred style of learning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Again, you can use that argument to demand or justify anything in the game. It's not a very strong argument.

And there is a fundamental right to do so, and it is up to the game developer to decide what and how much to give us based on how they design their game. This may come as a complete shock to people, but not everything becomes a slippery slope where the worst outcome is bound to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The stuff about the exploits is completely irrelevant. That bolded part is all that's needed.

I think you're playing GW as a single player game, and you're suggesting that everybody who shows off is somehow playing the game "for the wrong reasons." That's why you can display a title, that's why there are max title announcements, that's why you can see people winning Halls. People get certain titles for the knowledge that very few have the ability to achieve it. Similarly with items - do you think people get rare and expensive items to not show off? Perhaps you don't care much about others' gameplay, but I can assure you *a lot* of other people do, and they do not want new ways of shortcutting their achievements, EULA-breaking or not.

I am not saying that if you play to show off you are playing for the wrong reasons. What I am saying is if you play a game (any game, and not just GW in particular), solely for that reason, well, in all seriousness, that's why therapists have jobs. No one should be playing a game to have their existence (either in-game or out) to have validation based on what other people think of them. First and foremost, they should be playing and garnering those achievements for their own personal satisfaction. It becomes a matter of what is more important within the game as it is designed and who the target audience is, and for games geared less towards the hardcore audience, things like achievements and status must always be given lesser weight in favore of playability and accessibility in terms of game design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

There are much more efficient ways of beating Destroyers than Fire Eles. My point still stands - there are no other builds which even approach the power of Ursan. It's a generic build that is on par - if not better - than any other build you can bring for practically any zone.

Of course, but then it all gets back to how you have the most fun playing the game based on your individual playstyle. I find it the most fun to continue to play my Pyro as is, despite the fact that their are creatures with build-in defenses against such a build. Part of my fun and self-satisfaction comes from finding ways to succeed despite that. It's not always about being most effecient, but continuing to play in the manner that is most enjoyable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I should have mentioned that I was talking about the skill system, and not the role-playing aspects of this game. Other games have different ways of killing things - e.g. with total reliance on execution, or reliance on luck, or just mindless button-mashing. In GW, generally speaking, you make builds that counter other builds. I fail to see how that constitutes an exploit.

It's not an expoit in the way that using terrain to lock up an AI monster is, but what the general premise of BE does is to exploit the weaknesses of a particular area, such as using water magic skills against monsters that do not have strong defenses against cold damage. If you are entering an area with spell casting monsters that use spells with long cast times, taking an interrupter to shut them down is exploiting the weakness of that particular enemy. This is why basing the game solely around the ability to BE (among other things) over basic combat tactics is a fundemental flaw - one the weaknesses in any given area's monsters are known and a team formed to counter that, the game really then just becomes a war of attrition and a matter of pressing the right button at the right time ftw. A mission like Boreas Seabed is case in point. Without a character to interrupt Argo and Zu Hanuku, finishing the mission, let alone doing so within the Master's time limit is extremely difficult, even when using other basic game play tactics. However, exploiting the fact that both of these enemies can easily be interrupted turns the mission into a cake walk - the challenge of playing the mission is essentially gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The status of items is linked to its rarity, I made this point earlier and gave an example. It's not about who has one, it's about how many there are.

Exactly, and so long as players continue to farm for items (whether using UB or not is irrelavent) then the value and status of such items will always continue to diminish over time as more and more of those items enter the game world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The status of titles, however, is different. It is much harder to buy or sell titles than items, so its status is derived from difficulty rather than rarity. While it is still possible to "cheat" the title (by getting runs), the title itself is still respected as long as these "cheaters" remain relatively few. See the Champ title for example. Even though B-Spikers have farmed there way to Champ4-5, the majority have gotten it through legitimate means, and it still remains a respectable title (compared to Hero, for instance, where a huge portion of the HA population have scrubwayed their fame).

In short, if you introduce a new crutch for players who, without the crutch, cannot get the titles, then the titles loses its status.

Which is why, fundamentally speaking, we should first and foremost be playing any game for self-satisfaction rather than for validation. There may be relatively few B-Spikers, but double Champ point weekends come at a regular rate, therefore requiring less time and effort spent reaching higher levels of the title. Despite the fact that I never put much weight in titles and achievements to begin with, my self-satisfaction with any status oriented mechanic of the game will never diminish as I play for self-satisfaction and so long as I continue to play in this manner, and achieve my goals within the parameters I have set for myself, then nothing can take that away because I don't need or rely on having to feel good because of what other players may think about my uber elite skillz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

They prefer to made this competitive game a easy solo game (that will piss off the one looking for a challenge) than taking time to find a good easy solo game that fit their need.

No challenge = No game = No Fun = No player.

Then rework the three blessing (they should be on par)

Again, you are completely missing the point here. GW is not a competitive game - it is a co-operative game. Certainly, the PvP portion is competitive, but in terms of PvE, the campaigns are essentially solo stories that we can invite others along to enjoy along with us. Your ability to complete the campaigns doesn't hinge upon beating other players, but by working together as a team to defeat the monsters you encounter.

Hanok Odbrook

skanvak · Mar 01, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Title and elite content make the game competitive.

People compete to get the armore and title quicker than the other. So the game is competitive.

As for the raritiy of the object you are still using false logic. It is true that on long term rarity of the object will dimish with farm BUT people will still have hard time to have them => good price, if price fall, they will simply stop to farm them to farm something more time/price rewarding. But with UB anyone can farm it so the rarity of thos object plummet down fast. People don't need to buy them anymore they can just go UB and get one (still take 3h).

Kyrein · Mar 01, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

quicker than the other person? no, they just want to get it fast

therefore it is not competitive