Curse

Abedeus · Feb 16, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Heh... I think I know what's bothering Ursan defenders, and here's a little dialog from the Simpsons:
,,- I thought you came here looking for a challenge?
- Duh, a challenge I could do!''

You want to do challenging missions in a much easier, effortless way. And because someone else worked on it so hard and is trying to take away your easy-mode, you are outraged ;o

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 16, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

His limited time grinding the Norn title you mean? If a player has so little time to play, then he's probably just going through the storyline, which isn't that difficult to begin with. If he is truly stuck, he could look for advice on Wiki or the forums, or god forbid, ask for help ingame (it is a multiplayer game, after all). There's absolutely no need for a casual player to resort to Ursan.

Exactly. He can consult outside things to aid him, just as he can use UB. Therefore, if players use things like wiki and such to help them through the toughest areas, should they not receive less reward than the player who did it completely without any outside help? After all, the players who use the outside resources are starting out with an unfair advantage over those who don't, so shouldn't they be punished for it, just as the "cheaters" who use UB?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

People who get runs through difficult content (e.g. HM vanquishing or guardian) does not justify the right for others to do the same with Ursan. Just because something is exploitable, it doesn't mean others should exploit it too, by the same or different means (take duping or the recent Mallyx exploit for example).

The difference you are neglecting here is that the recent Mallyx exploit was the result of a hack and completely against the EULA. Runs, buying endgame items, and UB are all part of the in-game world, and as of this point in time, still completely legal and allowed by the game. Just because you feel that any one or all of these is an "exploit" does not make it wrong. It is simply part of the allowable game play Anet has included with their product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I've never said that games shouldn't be fun? The fact is, there has to be rules within a game that may not be fun.

Take FoW armor, for example. Farming for a set of FoW isn't particularly fun, but it's meant to be super-expensive, that's what differentiates FoW armor from any other kind of armor. If you shortcut this by, say, Ebaying Gold, then that kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

Similarly, elite missions exist for the challenge, that's what differentiates it from normal missions. And as a reward for the challenge, elite missions offer more titles and better drops than normal missions. If you circumvent the challenge by getting a run or Ursanwaying, then what's the point in playing these *elite* missions?

DoA was not designed for casual players, period. If you think a casual player (even a skilled casual player) should be able to complete it, you're mistaken. It was designed to take a huge chunk of your time, in planning and in actual play-time, and it was made to offer a much more difficult challenge than anything that existed in the game. That's the point of DoA.

For the record, the bolded text above is my doing - for those people who would rather point such things out instead of furthering the debate along.

OK then. Is it about the challenge or is it about the end rewards? Once again, I think we already laid to rest the problem with the end rewards. You don't have to be a skilled player to reap the benefits, or even enter the zone for that matter. Therefore any status associated with the rewards is meaningless until they can no longer be traded and a mechanic is in place to prevent the "unskilled" from getting run through the area.

If it's about the challenge, then we also laid this to rest. The challenge of the area remains unchanged - the elite areas, like any other instanced zone in GW is static (aside from the typical random spawn locations, which are irrelevant). The only change to the area is how one chooses to go through it. Therefore those who REALLY ARE DOING IT FOR THE CHALLENGE can do so in the same way as before the existence of UB. For those who simply do not care to do it in that manner can use UB. If it is about the challenge and pushing the limits of your abilities, then the end rewards are inconsequential. Therefore if you are playing these areas for the challenge, there is no reason for you to use UB, nor is there any reason to deny someone else from doing otherwise, as their choice has no bearing on your desire to gain the maximum amount of challenge from the area.

Personally I think the UW/FOW armor is puke ugly. In fact, I have no desire for any of the elite armor in the game simply because of the looks (no matter what the HoM reqs are). I have one warrior with monument armor solely because I wanted one set of warrior armor from each campaign, and I found the monument armor the least objectionable. So, in that case, if the drops and rewards of the UW/FOW armor are not the reason for me to play through those areas, then why would I ever play them? Just as you point out, it is for the challenge of those areas. I play those areas solely to challenge myself and to reap the self-satisfaction I get from setting the goals and succeeding at them in those areas. That is all the validation I need to enjoy the game. If someone chooses to Ursanway through those areas for whatever reason, then so be it. How and why they do it has no effect whatsoever on how I choose to do it, and the satisfaction I get from doing it my way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

ANet have no idea what they're doing when it comes to skill balances, I'm surprised you give them this much credit. The main example off the top of my head is Soul Reaping, which was exploited for around two years before it was finally toned down (and they still didn't do a good job of it). Other issues in PvP traditionally take months to resolve, and the solution usually brings up more problems, which take even longer to fix.

ANet changes their stances on things, as well. Like reconnects, first stating that it couldn't be done, then finding a way to implement that a year later.

I didn't realize I was giving them a lot of credit. I do give them credit for at least trying, which can't be said for many other developers. But as I said before, I don't agree with a lot of it. I don't agree with the Pet Nerf; I don't agree with having necessary PvP changes affect the skills in PvE. In fact, I have long been a proponent of separating PvP from PvE completely. If this was done from the outset, it would have negated any need to have PvE skills in the game in the first place. No one can argue the point that Anet is not infallible - they have made many mistakes in the past - the BMP is point in fact. However, in my long experience, Anet has done a lot more right by the industry and by their player base then they have done wrong. Like I said in my previous post, this issue could very well be a closed case in their minds, but I did forget to add that also for all we know, they could be working to resolve this issue as well. It's just that there is a lot more to take into consideration for a nerf with this issue than just the overpowered nature of the skill, as I believe I listed in a previous post here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Please at least think of some counters that are actually, you know, common and dangerous

Plenty are common; nothing can really said to be dangerous in this game for any half-decent build either, but since this was to refute the statement that there are no drawbacks to UB, thanks for proving the point with your first comment regarding interrupts in the quoted portion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Heh... I think I know what's bothering Ursan haters, and here's a little dialog from the Simpsons:
,,- I thought you came here looking for a challenge?
- Duh, a challenge I could do!''

You want to do challenging missions in a much harder way. And because someone else didn't work on it so hard and is trying to take away your l33tism, you are outraged ;o

There, fixed it for ya!

Hanok Odbrook

skanvak · Feb 16, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Drawbacks are not counters. You fail to answer the point alltogether.

Energy drain is an effective counter on low mana ursan,BUT it is not a drawback. Drawback are inconvenient, like the deactivation time of dervish tranformation.

On the Mallyx exploit that I don't know, did some one said it was ok? Personnally I am against any exploit (including running through portal to raise). No one denies the fact that UB is in game, and henceforth legal. We are arguing that it take out too much challenge from the game.

But again the main point is that people use only UB and not the Wolf and not the raven which should be equivalent. So please try to answer the problem and not use fuzzy logic to try to blunder argument for Ursan.

Btw what would think black belt in martial art if any 12 year old which do 2 katas could be black belt? (note any one can by a black belt). Well the black belt will become meaningless and the martial artist will no longer use it.

The point is that A net is destroying the meaning of the title. Destroyed the use of skill. Take out challenge. By wanting to make thing too even we will have a no flavor taste game.

Abedeus · Feb 16, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Plenty are common; nothing can really said to be dangerous in this game for any half-decent build either, but since this was to refute the statement that there are no drawbacks to UB, thanks for proving the point with your first comment regarding interrupts in the quoted portion.

Because there are no drawbacks in UB. Loosing skills? Yeah, right, you can carry Res signet, Rebirth Signet and as many hard resses as you want, then take UB as elite and you've got a perfect build with 12 skills. Let's not forget about Mesmer Inspiration stances, refrains, echoes, which you can use on yourself and then change to Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

There, fixed it for ya!
Hanok Odbrook

Thanks, now it makes no sense at all. You are complaining that hard mode is too hard, or what?

blue.rellik · Feb 17, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Plenty are common; nothing can really said to be dangerous in this game for any half-decent build either, but since this was to refute the statement that there are no drawbacks to UB, thanks for proving the point with your first comment regarding interrupts in the quoted portion.

Your points are fail because nearly everything you listed aren't 'counters', they work against nearly anything in the game. Counters are things specifically used/designed in response to something, everything you listed were in the game longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggg before Ursan existed. Not to mention the fact they can 'counter' nearly any other build as well.

Sab · Feb 17, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Exactly. He can consult outside things to aid him, just as he can use UB. Therefore, if players use things like wiki and such to help them through the toughest areas, should they not receive less reward than the player who did it completely without any outside help? After all, the players who use the outside resources are starting out with an unfair advantage over those who don't, so shouldn't they be punished for it, just as the "cheaters" who use UB?

Other outside help, like Wiki, allows one to learn and improve as a player. Ursan does not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

The difference you are neglecting here is that the recent Mallyx exploit was the result of a hack and completely against the EULA. Runs, buying endgame items, and UB are all part of the in-game world, and as of this point in time, still completely legal and allowed by the game. Just because you feel that any one or all of these is an "exploit" does not make it wrong. It is simply part of the allowable game play Anet has included with their product.

Let me rephrase, instead of only having runners devalue titles, you want the runners *and* all the Ursanwayers to devalue the title too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

OK then. Is it about the challenge or is it about the end rewards? Once again, I think we already laid to rest the problem with the end rewards. You don't have to be a skilled player to reap the benefits, or even enter the zone for that matter. Therefore any status associated with the rewards is meaningless until they can no longer be traded and a mechanic is in place to prevent the "unskilled" from getting run through the area.

Again, instead of fixing their game and try to restore some meaning in rewards, they should go in the complete opposite direction and let everybody Ursanway through everything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

If it's about the challenge, then we also laid this to rest. The challenge of the area remains unchanged - the elite areas, like any other instanced zone in GW is static (aside from the typical random spawn locations, which are irrelevant). The only change to the area is how one chooses to go through it. Therefore those who REALLY ARE DOING IT FOR THE CHALLENGE can do so in the same way as before the existence of UB. For those who simply do not care to do it in that manner can use UB. If it is about the challenge and pushing the limits of your abilities, then the end rewards are inconsequential. Therefore if you are playing these areas for the challenge, there is no reason for you to use UB, nor is there any reason to deny someone else from doing otherwise, as their choice has no bearing on your desire to gain the maximum amount of challenge from the area.

The issue goes beyond, "Ursan doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter." It's more to do with how Ursan affects the game as a whole.

Infractions of the EULA - through gold-buying, duping, botting and so forth - generally do not affect the individual player, so why should the devs bother punishing the exploiters? Because it goes against the very design philosophy of the game. Not to mention that if left unchecked, exploits will eventually devolve the game into a steaming pile of shit.

My point is *not* that Ursan is against the EULA, it's the idea that while something may not have a direct effect within your instance, it can have an indirect effect over your experience and may eventually change the direction of the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Personally I think the UW/FOW armor is puke ugly. In fact, I have no desire for any of the elite armor in the game simply because of the looks (no matter what the HoM reqs are). I have one warrior with monument armor solely because I wanted one set of warrior armor from each campaign, and I found the monument armor the least objectionable. So, in that case, if the drops and rewards of the UW/FOW armor are not the reason for me to play through those areas, then why would I ever play them? Just as you point out, it is for the challenge of those areas. I play those areas solely to challenge myself and to reap the self-satisfaction I get from setting the goals and succeeding at them in those areas. That is all the validation I need to enjoy the game. If someone chooses to Ursanway through those areas for whatever reason, then so be it. How and why they do it has no effect whatsoever on how I choose to do it, and the satisfaction I get from doing it my way.

Continuing from before, perhaps you personally don't care about someone else's achievements, but others do. They want to keep certain achievements hard to get, not to be selfish, but to preserve what value is left of it. They want to keep challenges challenging, not to see it reduced to the lowest common denominator. They, knowingly or not, care about GW's design philosophy and they are quite sure that allowing a bad player to group with similarly bad players, all pressing 1-2-3 and finish the hardest challenges in GW with similar efficiency as a decent team, is not good for the game.

So how does this affect the game as a whole? You can go to pretty much anywhere that offers a challenge and see Ursans LFG. Why is that? While everything can and has been done without Ursan, it's simply requires zero effort to load Ursan on your bar and plow through the thing that was previously a challenge. There is no room for improvement, no learning, no thinking, just mindless, endless button mashing. I can't see this as making the game any better.

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 19, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

Drawbacks are not counters. You fail to answer the point alltogether.

Energy drain is an effective counter on low mana ursan,BUT it is not a drawback. Drawback are inconvenient, like the deactivation time of dervish tranformation.

On the Mallyx exploit that I don't know, did some one said it was ok? Personnally I am against any exploit (including running through portal to raise). No one denies the fact that UB is in game, and henceforth legal. We are arguing that it take out too much challenge from the game.

But again the main point is that people use only UB and not the Wolf and not the raven which should be equivalent. So please try to answer the problem and not use fuzzy logic to try to blunder argument for Ursan.

Noun
drawback (plural drawbacks)
1. A disadvantage; something that detracts or takes away.
Doesn't matter whether any of these things affects only UB or every build under the sun - they are still drawbacks to using UB.

The Mallyx incident was not an exploit - it was the result of a hack to the programming code, and completely illegal in terms of the EULA, which is why many accounts were banned.
Again, in terms of challenge, that point has been refuted countless times. The challenge in any area remains static, the only difference is how the individual chooses to enter that challenge.

Why should Raven and Volfen be equivelent? The point I made previously, which apparently you missed completely is that skills are NOT created equal, including normal elite skills, even within the same attribute, therefore there is no reason for the PvE skills, including the three elites to be any different. Searing Flames is arguably the most powerful Fire Magic elite; UB is the most powerful PvE elite. Can't make it any simpler than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Other outside help, like Wiki, allows one to learn and improve as a player. Ursan does not.

Not really. Any one can copy a tried and true build; anyone can follow a walkthrough; anyone can follow orders while getting a run, but none of these necessarily increases one's abilities or skills. They just prove that they can do what they read or are told to do. It's how one chooses to use the tools given to them that makes the difference, including UB. UB can be the perfect tool for a player who wants to learn to be able to conquer hard mode or elite areas, but otherwise cannot do so for whatever reason. Just like a player in a strategy game may use easy mode on a mission they are having difficulty with to learn new tactics or strategies, so too can a player in GW use UB to learn the kinds of things they need in these areas that they normally wouldn't be able to learn because they can't last five minutes in the area.

In the end, I suppose it's just the philosophy of what one considers more important in the game. I personally feel that bettering one's skill in strategy and battle tatics should take precidence over finding the right "gimmick" build for each area. In this way, it allows players to choose the kind of character they want to play (one of the core mechanics of the entire RPG genre since it began life with pencil & paper games in some kid's basement), and allows them to increase their skill at using that character by using skillful strategies and tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Let me rephrase, instead of only having runners devalue titles, you want the runners *and* all the Ursanwayers to devalue the title too?

Again, instead of fixing their game and try to restore some meaning in rewards, they should go in the complete opposite direction and let everybody Ursanway through everything?

Does it really matter? If you have one thing devalue some type of status, it doesn't matter how much more you pile on to it. Special event weekends: triple green drops, double elite XP capping; double PvP title points, etc. They all can be said to devalue titles and player status, yet they have existed for nearly three years. So, it appears to me Anet places a higher priority on offering players more options on choosing how they enjoy the game, over players who play for status symbols, which makes perfect sense in a game designed to be more casual as opposed to hardcore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The issue goes beyond, "Ursan doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter." It's more to do with how Ursan affects the game as a whole.

Infractions of the EULA - through gold-buying, duping, botting and so forth - generally do not affect the individual player, so why should the devs bother punishing the exploiters? Because it goes against the very design philosophy of the game. Not to mention that if left unchecked, exploits will eventually devolve the game into a steaming pile of shit.

My point is *not* that Ursan is against the EULA, it's the idea that while something may not have a direct effect within your instance, it can have an indirect effect over your experience and may eventually change the direction of the entire game.

Punishing of exploiters really has nothing to do with the philosphy of the game. It's really about how the devs view illegal activities like hacking and fair play. Everyone can use UB if they so desire - it's an entirely personal choice based upon what kind of play experience you want to get from the game. Hackers and botters give themselves an unfair advantage over others by nature of their illegal activities, therefore need to be shut down, as you so eloquently put it. The fact that an MMO changes direction is part of the nature of the beast - it is simply one's opinion on whether the new direction is for the better or for the worst based upon one's own personal desires. SW Galaxies is point in fact - many hated the face lift, an equal number welcomed it. To think that GW would not change, especially in the face of new MMO releases along with the upcoming release of GW2, is complete idiocy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Continuing from before, perhaps you personally don't care about someone else's achievements, but others do. They want to keep certain achievements hard to get, not to be selfish, but to preserve what value is left of it. They want to keep challenges challenging, not to see it reduced to the lowest common denominator. They, knowingly or not, care about GW's design philosophy and they are quite sure that allowing a bad player to group with similarly bad players, all pressing 1-2-3 and finish the hardest challenges in GW with similar efficiency as a decent team, is not good for the game.

So how does this affect the game as a whole? You can go to pretty much anywhere that offers a challenge and see Ursans LFG. Why is that? While everything can and has been done without Ursan, it's simply requires zero effort to load Ursan on your bar and plow through the thing that was previously a challenge. There is no room for improvement, no learning, no thinking, just mindless, endless button mashing. I can't see this as making the game any better.

And before, the game was simply C+Spacing your way to victory. Again, everything you mention here is not UB exclusive. To cure the ills of GW is to rebuild the combat system and AI from the ground up. Even without GW2 in the works, that is an impossible venture. UB is simply the band-aid that helps even things up and brings the game back to its casual player roots. Is is the perfect solution? Of course not, but if the choice was the game we had before, and the game we have now, then I am still picking the now. You once again mention about maintaining the value of achievements. Have we already forgotten what was mentioned before? If players truly wanted to keep a high status on elite items, then these items should not be allowed to be traded to sold to other players who did not "earn" them in the first place. The "elite" players themselves began to devalue the status of these items long before UB came into the picture.

Hanok Odbrook

Sab · Feb 20, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Not really. Any one can copy a tried and true build; anyone can follow a walkthrough; anyone can follow orders while getting a run, but none of these necessarily increases one's abilities or skills. They just prove that they can do what they read or are told to do. It's how one chooses to use the tools given to them that makes the difference, including UB. UB can be the perfect tool for a player who wants to learn to be able to conquer hard mode or elite areas, but otherwise cannot do so for whatever reason. Just like a player in a strategy game may use easy mode on a mission they are having difficulty with to learn new tactics or strategies, so too can a player in GW use UB to learn the kinds of things they need in these areas that they normally wouldn't be able to learn because they can't last five minutes in the area.

Keyword: allows. Wiki allows players to use their own thinking and adapt their builds for specific areas.

What exactly does Ursan allow a player to learn that he could not learn better from using a normal build, researching Wiki, asking a friend, or posting here on Guru? More than likely, players who use Ursan will be the type that does not want to learn to play. Those who do want to improve will have better options for learning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

In the end, I suppose it's just the philosophy of what one considers more important in the game. I personally feel that bettering one's skill in strategy and battle tatics should take precidence over finding the right "gimmick" build for each area. In this way, it allows players to choose the kind of character they want to play (one of the core mechanics of the entire RPG genre since it began life with pencil & paper games in some kid's basement), and allows them to increase their skill at using that character by using skillful strategies and tactics.

Tactics are important, I agree, too bad Ursan doesn't allow a skilled player to perform any better than a bad player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Does it really matter? If you have one thing devalue some type of status, it doesn't matter how much more you pile on to it. Special event weekends: triple green drops, double elite XP capping; double PvP title points, etc. They all can be said to devalue titles and player status, yet they have existed for nearly three years. So, it appears to me Anet places a higher priority on offering players more options on choosing how they enjoy the game, over players who play for status symbols, which makes perfect sense in a game designed to be more casual as opposed to hardcore.

Sure it matters. If not, then why not just implement a /maxtitles command that lets players instantly max out their titles? The more ways of devaluing an achievement, the less valuable it will become.

While the game is designed for casual players (and indeed the majority of the game is geared towards that audience), why bother implementing content designed specifically for hardcore players (HM, DoA, etc.), if anybody can get through them? This is fundamentally my problem with their design of these areas, and with people who support Ursan.

Hard mode should be hard for everybody. If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Just make casual mode and ask the good players to take off their armor. Casual players will enjoy that a lot more, as they won't have to run Ursanway all day. I think that would be a better approach to gearing HM to the casual audience, rather than designing hard content which is actually somewhat challenging for them. The latter option, which is what they chose to do, would make a lot more sense if Hard Mode *was* meant to be challenging for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Punishing of exploiters really has nothing to do with the philosphy of the game. It's really about how the devs view illegal activities like hacking and fair play. Everyone can use UB if they so desire - it's an entirely personal choice based upon what kind of play experience you want to get from the game. Hackers and botters give themselves an unfair advantage over others by nature of their illegal activities, therefore need to be shut down, as you so eloquently put it. The fact that an MMO changes direction is part of the nature of the beast - it is simply one's opinion on whether the new direction is for the better or for the worst based upon one's own personal desires. SW Galaxies is point in fact - many hated the face lift, an equal number welcomed it. To think that GW would not change, especially in the face of new MMO releases along with the upcoming release of GW2, is complete idiocy.

I think you slightly missed my point. Someone who exploits can gain an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't, but why should the one who doesn't exploit, care? If someone Ebays their FoW armor, why should someone who got it the fair way, care? After all, someone Ebaying on the other side of the game does not suddenly make your farming harder. Look at this from the FoW farmer's perspective - how does Ebaying affect you personally?

My point is that if it does, then you can also see how Ursan - which you insist doesn't affect my experience of the game - can also affect me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And before, the game was simply C+Spacing your way to victory. Again, everything you mention here is not UB exclusive. To cure the ills of GW is to rebuild the combat system and AI from the ground up. Even without GW2 in the works, that is an impossible venture. UB is simply the band-aid that helps even things up and brings the game back to its casual player roots. Is is the perfect solution? Of course not, but if the choice was the game we had before, and the game we have now, then I am still picking the now. You once again mention about maintaining the value of achievements. Have we already forgotten what was mentioned before? If players truly wanted to keep a high status on elite items, then these items should not be allowed to be traded to sold to other players who did not "earn" them in the first place. The "elite" players themselves began to devalue the status of these items long before UB came into the picture.

The difference between Ursan and other gimmick builds is that other gimmick builds range from being decent, to being on par with other builds, to downright failing. 55/SB tanking works for much of the game, but when you run into direct counters, you might as well /resign. SF is pretty good for most of the game, but it's terrible against high-level or foes resistant to fire. On the other hand, Ursan is an unchanging set of four skills that allows you to steamroll through 99.9% of PvE with the same or better efficiency than any other build.

The "elite" players aren't the ones devaluing the titles, it's the ones who want to appear "elite" but who are somehow incapable of obtaining them the regular way. They're the ones using Ursan, or offering/getting runs, or devaluing achievements through other means.

skanvak · Feb 21, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Again partial logic, Hanok, answering us with rethoric trick will never convince us.

one example :
you said that seling high end item devalue elite area.

That a partial reasonning as we are speaking of title and hall's statue that cannot be sold. It can even be consider false as people buying those item has to get lots of money one way of another.

You want to know more. I don't get my elite items from farming or buying most of the time. They are given to me by the member of my guild. And that reflect better than anything my status in the game.

Beside trading had to the game and give the high end player ressources to get other thing he wants.

So you are failing to make any point.

capblye · Feb 21, 2008, 12:17 PM // 12:17

It appears everyone is off track with the semantics of the effects of Ursan.
The effects of the skill and the overall effect of the game does not matter.

What matters is, Anet found a way to get all the casual players (which btw most are a much higher % than the "l33t crowd)) to WANT to purchase a copy of EoTN.
Its that simple.

They created an overpowered skill that allowed the casual player to be successful in areas that were basically off limits to them before, simply because they could not devote the time and energy to learning the builds and skills that "hardcore" GW'ers know.

Its simple economics, and once word of Ursan reached the ears of the massive amount of casual players, sales of EoTN increased greatly.

There will always be casualties to a course of action such as this.
If 10% of the population of GW's l33t crowd are offended or perturbed by the results of the action, so be it.
They still make their money, (to support servers, developers etc) which in the end is far more important than an unhappy 10% of their client base.
The Purist will ALWAYS be crushed by Capitalism.

Abonai Laguna · Feb 21, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

target ursan, press delete.
Cross ur fingers it works -.-

the_jos · Feb 21, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Hard mode should be hard for everybody.
.....
On the other hand, Ursan is an unchanging set of four skills that allows you to steamroll through 99.9% of PvE with the same or better efficiency than any other build.

I had a strong urge to quote this.

First of all, Hard Mode is not hard for everybody.
I find most missions and vanquishes quite easy except a few missions that I'm not familiar with. It's more time consuming than actually difficult.

Second, while UB allows people to steamroll PvE, the best usage of UB is in full-human teams. Given it takes a while to set up a full team the advantage of UB over 2 players+ heroes or even 1 player + H&H is only relevant in time consuming activities like long vanquishes or elite areas. Or when playing with organised friend/guild/alliance teams.
If composing a team takes 30 mins and the actual clearing UB takes 30 mins, a player with H&H who can finish in 45 mins is still the winner.

Third, most of the time I play with guildies in a vanquish they load a certain teambuild which includes 3 necro's. You must be familiar with that build

It allows them to 'steamroll' 90% the game with the same or better efficiency than any other builds.

While not 100% comparable to the UB skill, it does tell something about the mindset of players.
How many of them do understand the mechanics of the 3-necro build?
Most of them just load the builds given by others and try them only to find out they actually work. They don't know why and don't care because it works.
Now if the build fails somewhere they will ask others to help them because the game is too hard. Showing they only learned a trick and not actually improved skill.

The 'value' of achievements was always relative.
I saw my carto achievements 'devaluated' by Texmod but don't care about it because I know I got them 'oldstyle'. And even then I knew it was just about spending time hugging walls and not something rocket science.
I could have gotten my Armbraces ages ago the moment I got my monk through NF but I decided to play my mesmer more and mesmers and DoA groups did not go together very well. The same was true about PUGing a lot of other 'elite areas'. Is that because my mesmer is not 'elite' enough?
Or because my monk is 'more elite' than my mesmer?
Or should I have spend more time searching for a group that would have accepted me? Or find a guild that would be 'elite' enough to take my mesmer with them?

The only GuildWars related achievements I am proud of have nothing to do with titles or any 'prestege' items.
It's things like helping people with tasks they have trouble with. I played a lot of THK/Hell's back then and helped people getting their Tyrian carto. What also counts for me is being part of a guild where people return after leaving because it's more fun with us. Or having the experience of doing something in a way not many people did it before. Like finishing an elite area with a completely new teambuild.
Titles, prestige items and stuff like that? Vanity, no more and no less.

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 22, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Keyword: allows. Wiki allows players to use their own thinking and adapt their builds for specific areas.

What exactly does Ursan allow a player to learn that he could not learn better from using a normal build, researching Wiki, asking a friend, or posting here on Guru? More than likely, players who use Ursan will be the type that does not want to learn to play. Those who do want to improve will have better options for learning.

Tactics are important, I agree, too bad Ursan doesn't allow a skilled player to perform any better than a bad player.

Well, experience is everything. Wiki and a strategy guide can give you a broad idea of what to expect, but nothing replaces the knowledge you gain from actually going through an area. I can use Sorrow's Furnance and the Titan Quests as a case in point. Even with wiki, if it wasn't for the one subquest that allows you to explore SF, I would have been at a severe disadvantage for the other quests. With the Titan Quests, I knew what to expect, but it wasn't until a few times through them that I really was able to work out viable strategies to make them "easy." In fact, just in the last day or so, for the first time, I was able to complete Defend NKP without Graywind getting killed - and this with a "weaker" team based on the fact I was using secondary characters with non-ideal builds. Wiki would never have been able to teach me to do that.

I don't think UB is the perfect solution to any of the problems in GW, but at least it opens up more opportunities for players to play through and experience other parts of the game that they normally would not be able to experience, and be able to become better players as a result of it - if they so choose. An unfortunate side effect is that the poor player can also benefit from this, but as the old saying goes, I would rather ten criminals go free than to convict one innocent man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Sure it matters. If not, then why not just implement a /maxtitles command that lets players instantly max out their titles? The more ways of devaluing an achievement, the less valuable it will become.

While the game is designed for casual players (and indeed the majority of the game is geared towards that audience), why bother implementing content designed specifically for hardcore players (HM, DoA, etc.), if anybody can get through them? This is fundamentally my problem with their design of these areas, and with people who support Ursan.

Hard mode should be hard for everybody. If it's not, then why bother making *hard* mode? Just make casual mode and ask the good players to take off their armor. Casual players will enjoy that a lot more, as they won't have to run Ursanway all day. I think that would be a better approach to gearing HM to the casual audience, rather than designing hard content which is actually somewhat challenging for them. The latter option, which is what they chose to do, would make a lot more sense if Hard Mode *was* meant to be challenging for them.

In terms of devaluing, it's not really how many, but how fast. Be it one or one hundred ways - it's really the same to me, it just happens all the quicker with the more options that you have. Just like Survivor, be it just the double XP weekends or that coupled with the Kilroy dungeon, it doesn't really matter - to me it is just as devalued with one as it is with both. At least with more options you can pick your own cup of tea so to speak. Really - if some of these areas are supposed to be hard, then why can a solo or dual team build farm some them with little difficulty - with as much skill as the typical UB player needs?

And that's really what this all boils down to. What kinds of options can we give to the players that allow them to play in the way the most enjoy within a certain set of peramaters for the game? Things like SF and HM were added to the game to give players something more to do after they finished one chapter and while they were waiting for the next. HM especially was created for those who felt the game up to that point was not challenging enough. It gets back to how you want to enjoy the game. I choose not to use UB as I would rather play my characters with the type of build I have most fun with, and use tactics rather than builds to complete tough areas. That's how I get my enjoyment out of the game. Others prefer to change builds on the fly. Still others, as we now see, prefer to use UB. I personally don't feel any one of these options should be more "right" than any other. It should be a personal choice that is formed within the parameters of the game - just like someone who prefers to be run through rather than play through the storyline. If that's how they get enjoyment from the game, then I am glad they paid their 50 bucks to do so, which keeps the GW servers up and running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I think you slightly missed my point. Someone who exploits can gain an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't, but why should the one who doesn't exploit, care? If someone Ebays their FoW armor, why should someone who got it the fair way, care? After all, someone Ebaying on the other side of the game does not suddenly make your farming harder. Look at this from the FoW farmer's perspective - how does Ebaying affect you personally?

My point is that if it does, then you can also see how Ursan - which you insist doesn't affect my experience of the game - can also affect me.

The problem we run into here, then is what is the definition of an exploit. Certainly one can exploit the AI defects to make a quest or area easier. One can make the Last Day Dawns quest easier by starting from Temple of Ages. Who is to say something like that isn't an exploit, but a different way to solve a task? Technically, UB is not an exploit - the skill is being used exactly how it was designed. In terms of Gold Farming and things like eBaying - that hurts the bottom line profitability of the developer and publisher, so actually falls outside of the perspective of "exploit." Personally speaking, again, people who eBay or play the game differently have thus far no bearing on my experience of the game or the satisfaction I get from playing it. That's just me. Do "normal" farming players have a viable beef about UB lowering prices? In one perspective they do - there's no doubt that UB can and does accelerate the price drop of high end items. But again, as has been mentioned many times before, so do many other factors, so UB is not the sole culprit here. However, we can't base a nerf solely on what a small faction of the player base decides is detrimental. We have to look at the big picture and what can be termed to be the "normal" type of game play environment here.

Capblye makes a good point. Even in a single-player off-line game, choices within game design and direction have to be made that won't necessarily please everyone. In a game such as GW, we know that they certainly won't. Therefore, we have to decide what is more important - accessibility or status. If history proves anything, accessibility sells more games than status does.

Players who enjoy the challenge that elite areas and HM have to offer still have the choice to play "normally" and experience every bit of the challenge those areas have to offer and enjoy the satisfaction they get from victory. Players who simply want to mindlessly button mash now also have that option. If that's how they get their kicks, then so be it. So go ahead and implement /maxtitle. It still won't change the way I go about "earning" them, nor detract from the satisfaction I get from having earned them while playing the game in the manner which I found most enjoyable. Nor will if affect the fact that I simply don't care about what other players think of how I earned those titles - I simply don't need other people to grovel and throw accolades upon me every time I am in an outpost simply because of some piece of armor, a title, or other status symbol - that's not why I play this, nor any, game. If someone is playing a game for this reason, then they are gaming for all the wrong reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The difference between Ursan and other gimmick builds is that other gimmick builds range from being decent, to being on par with other builds, to downright failing. 55/SB tanking works for much of the game, but when you run into direct counters, you might as well /resign. SF is pretty good for most of the game, but it's terrible against high-level or foes resistant to fire. On the other hand, Ursan is an unchanging set of four skills that allows you to steamroll through 99.9% of PvE with the same or better efficiency than any other build.

The "elite" players aren't the ones devaluing the titles, it's the ones who want to appear "elite" but who are somehow incapable of obtaining them the regular way. They're the ones using Ursan, or offering/getting runs, or devaluing achievements through other means.

One point of contention first - Actually I have found SF and my Pyro to work quite well in fire resistant areas like the RoF. Fire resistant foes still suffer burning and still run from AoE affects, and I have found both to often work better than the typical solution of bringing water magic skills.

But really, isn't the point of Build Experimentation (finding the most ideal build to suit an area - i.e. gimmick) a form of exploiting in and of itself? Isn't that the whole idea of BE - to "exploit" the weakness and defects of the enemy and it's AI? Therefore, shouldn't a player who takes a less viable build into an area be deserving of better rewards for success than the player to fine tunes to the perfect build since the first player was able to succeed against a more difficult scenario?

You're a also bit off base with your last statement. Again, "exploits" like running have been around long before UB, and titles have been getting devalued even before Nightfall came out. And you can't argue the fact that with or without UB, that the "elite" players devalue such area status when they hand over (either for free or gold) some high end item to a player who did not "obtain" it in the "regular way." Therefore, really, who is to say what the "regular" way should be? And who is to say how much "skill" is enough? Even with the Level 10 update, doesn't it take some modicum of skill to reach that level and get through enough of the game to the point that UB is unlocked for that character? If not, then is that really the fault of the player for not becoming skilled at the game or is the fault of the game for not being able to teach the player the skills necessary to complete all areas of the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

Again partial logic, Hanok, answering us with rethoric trick will never convince us.

one example :
you said that seling high end item devalue elite area.

That a partial reasonning as we are speaking of title and hall's statue that cannot be sold. It can even be consider false as people buying those item has to get lots of money one way of another.

You want to know more. I don't get my elite items from farming or buying most of the time. They are given to me by the member of my guild. And that reflect better than anything my status in the game.

Beside trading had to the game and give the high end player ressources to get other thing he wants.

So you are failing to make any point.

Actually, this debate, like all the threads before it began because of the issue of players using full UB teams in DoA, and that they are not deserving of the rewards for doing so. In regards to how you have acquired the rewards, that is pretty much my case in point. It does say alot about your status in the game when you feel you should be able to get those rewards for essentially doing nothing, yet criticize those who, at the very least, are playing through the required area. Thus, the rewards are devalued by such as yourself who basically get them handed to them on a silver platter. Doesn't matter what reasons a trade system is in place for in a game, if it is the matter of the status of a particular item, then according to the arguments put forth here, than anyone who does not get them the "right" way devalues the status of them and the area from which they are acquired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capblye

It appears everyone is off track with the semantics of the effects of Ursan.
The effects of the skill and the overall effect of the game does not matter.

What matters is, Anet found a way to get all the casual players (which btw most are a much higher % than the "l33t crowd)) to WANT to purchase a copy of EoTN.
Its that simple.

They created an overpowered skill that allowed the casual player to be successful in areas that were basically off limits to them before, simply because they could not devote the time and energy to learning the builds and skills that "hardcore" GW'ers know.

Its simple economics, and once word of Ursan reached the ears of the massive amount of casual players, sales of EoTN increased greatly.

There will always be casualties to a course of action such as this.
If 10% of the population of GW's l33t crowd are offended or perturbed by the results of the action, so be it.
They still make their money, (to support servers, developers etc) which in the end is far more important than an unhappy 10% of their client base.
The Purist will ALWAYS be crushed by Capitalism.

I don't think UB was put in place so much to make sales on the expansion as it was to offer something new and different in terms of what we have seen before - such as the avatar forms in Nightfall. The blessings are just the next logical step in that direction. However, the update that allows level 10's to access EotN can most certainly be attributed to your theory.

Hanok Odbrook

Kyrein · Feb 22, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

jesus christ how long did you spend writing all that?

skanvak · Feb 22, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Once again you use rethoric, Hanok. You reduce the debate on the item and don't answer on the title because it does not go your way. Most people don't care about people having bought their high end item as long as they sell high. What they care is that any one can get them through farming (making them common).

And the main point is that it is the title / statue that are devalue.

Point failed, again.

I prefered the original post. At least it was giving a real explication of why he like this skill. Caplye and Jos make shorter but more pertinent post.

But noone explained me why it is normal that, though I was not able to finished DoA before, when UB came in the game I felt like something has been taken out of the game.

Bottom line is that it does, subjective point of view, affect my experience of the game. Except if you are totally associal, you cannot ignore thing that are normal content of the Game (UB, teleport/rez through zonning out...).

xDusT II · Feb 22, 2008, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Q: I really want to do elite areas but I just got this game a few weeks ago, is there any way I can still participate?

A: Sure, just grind up a norn title and get this skill called UB. It's what all the pro PvE'ers use to beat all the hard stuff.

Q:This game is hard, trying to think of 8 skills to put on my bar is really annoying and tricky. All those skills are really complex and I don't understand them. Is there a way for the game to make a skill bar for me?

A: Don't worry, just take this one skill and it simplifies your skill bar to only 5 skills. 1 of which you don't even have to use!

Q: I don't understand these skill descriptions. Some skills even have consequences if I use them incorrectly. I didn't get this game to think about when I should use each skill, that's boring, is there any way around this?

A: Sure Thing! We've made the skills really easy to understand that even a brain dead monkey can use them properly. Just mash skills 1 and 2 on recharge to do damage!

Q: I keep dying a lot because of AoE and other damage sources. This game is really lame and boring when you die so fast.

A: That's ok, all you have to do is concentrate on mashing skills 1 and 2. UB will do the rest of the work for you. In fact we'll give you a bonus of 200 health and armour, so you can stand in all that nasty AoE damage and still keep attacking!

Q: My character moves to slowly. I didn't buy this game to just walk around all the time, is there a way for me to go faster?

A: Sure is, UB also gives you a permanent speed boost, to make the game 33% faster for you!

Q: Wow, my team is using non-ursan skill bars and because of this they can't keep me alive or kill anything fast enough. Are they noobs?

A: Yes they are. Because they are to stupid to realise that all 1000 or so skills in the game are just there to confuse you and make you not run UB. You should proceed to tell them how much they suck, because you were never this noob. You realised all you need is UB on your bar to win this game and you should be constantly mocking your skill-less peers every time they let you die that they are stupid nerds for trying to think and strategize in a video-game. When you quit, say something like your going to visit your gf to make them realise how much cooler you are than them.

Q: Wow thanks! Now is there any chance you could introduce some hard areas into the game? it's getting too easy and boring now.

A: ...

Trub · Feb 22, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

xDust, you gave me my 'lolwut' for the day..thank you!
But what's scary is..I DO see that scenario happening daily in DoA......

___________________
PeeVeeEEH? Helpful Hint #9915: Bear fat rubbed generously upon the breast plate gives an added +100 armor.

Abedeus · Feb 22, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Even if it's a joke post, it's very, very true. I hope the ursaners will notice the heavy irony. If not, even a very large shovel wouldn't help them.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Feb 22, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

A few weeks ago I did HM Deep; an elite mission, in hard mode. We used steel wall (I was monking) and it was very very easy. Three people took all the damage and they were very easy to heal, and the rest took the enemies down very fast. Ursanway, would have been similarly easy; very resilient tanks, powerful AoE damage dealers, and a big wall separating the monks from the enemies.

So is Steel Wall is bad as Ursanway? Both make what should be a hard task, an easy accomplishment. Both have the builds provided for them (Ursan gives you the skills and S.W. has a (somewhat) specific skill set because 90% of people use copy/paste wiki builds) If they are just as bad as eachother, what would you have people run? Bring-your-own-build-and-let's-hope-to-god-it-works-way? Just because it makes it easy and mindless, doesn't make it evil and awful.

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Ursan; it does take the fun out of what ever you're doing. But a lot of people don't play, or do certain things, for the fun. Many people don't kill Mallyx so they can say 'I killed Mallyx!'. They do it so they can get his drops, and get the gems on the way. They do it so they can get money to buy better things.

But hey! If it makes that easy, and all the Ursaners get bored, maybe they'll all quit!

Bryant Again · Feb 22, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Lipgloss is Cool

So is Steel Wall is bad as Ursanway?

Not really. For one, the "steel wall" build is tailored for the Deep, while UB can be used anywhere. The fact it and DoA are always talked about hand-in-hand is because DoA is the hardest area in the game.

But to be more specific. The difficulty in GW is less in its execution and more in its set-up, i.e. the challenge lies in putting together your build (organization and communication is key as well, I'll mention.) When you refer to "skill" you're not talking about how you play but what you play. The challenge is having to put together the right team build to be able to successfully complete an area from start to finish, and being able to overcome the counters you'll have to face.

The reason I'm much more acceptable to someone copying builds as opposed to someone taking UB is that the former shows you builds. Even if you just copy + paste you're getting a hell of a lot more out of it than just taking Ursan. You have a much greater chance of learning something new in a team with a variety of wiki'd builds as opposed to a team with only two or three different types of builds (6 Ursans, 2 monks.)

I could say more, but I'd just be repeating myself. So instead I'll just link to this.