Curse

skanvak · Feb 13, 2008, 10:22 AM // 10:22

All the argument of pro-UB resume to this : this is a single player game so let me use my god mode that does nothing to your experience of playing.

Well GW is not a solo game. But this tend to be how Anet and some people here concieve it. I find that team play and competition with other was important. Title was meant to be able to compare player, but utimetaly Anet left every thing that spoil title of their meaning : hfff, UB... Like if the titles they put in the game mean nothing to them or anyone.

When I play I want that something is at stake, with UB nothing is.

What I am afraid of, if that they want to make a game that 12 y/o player or bad player could finish. Let's put it, if this is so, I don't want to play such a game. It is ok to play with bad or young player, it is a challenge to make them good player. But it the difficulty is so low that they will succeed without help, them what is the challenge for me or player better than me?

One of the problem, I think, is that most gamecomputer designer don't know how to make real challenge for human. IA is so weak that given the same asset than a human, they will be beatten (except in chess but that is because their is a solution). The only way game designer now to make a game difficult is to cheat! So when they want to make their game easier they give a cheat to the player, that does not bother them. You want example of how badly Anet deals with difficulty : look at Zenelhun, the farm is easy because the AI is stupid (can't check her LOS) instead of making it check her LOS which would have made the game more realistic and harder, they diminished the drop rate though spoiling non farmer and farmer alike! They CHEATED. So When people complained that DoA was too difficult, common people couldn't finish the titles fast...etc... then they give them a cheat! Perfectly normal in their actual way of thinking.

I was pretty happy to not be able to go in the DoA because I was planning my guild to put together to face the challenge. Well UB come, and I finished the whole thing in 3 hours (Mallyx included in a PUG). Well, now do I need to gather my guild to face the challenge? No, just go UB in the first UB PUG.

I begin to think that it is the concept of MMORPG that is broken, because you can't make every one heroes, period.

KennyC · Feb 13, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

^^well said, I agree.

gerg-nad · Feb 13, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Now that Ursan is here it must remain unchanged. To get your Norn level up you need to grind points and will become more powerful and more successful. The monotony of grinding points out to get higher levels of important skills is now a fact of PvE play in GW.

Here are some facts and logical conclusions about Ursan Blessing.
1. It is one of the most powerful skills in the game. - logical conclusion = Use it in the most difficult areas/parts of the game to improve efficiency and the probability of success.
2. It is a PvE skill and cannot be used by hero's - logical conclusion = Team up with real people as the team will be very powerful
3. It is equally available and usable by all classes- logical conclusion = All classes can do pretty much any area equally well, so little class discrimination.
4. You become more powerful with higher levels in Norn - logical conclusion Grind points and you will be rewarded with more power and ease with difficult areas.
5. It is very simple to use - logical conclusion = Even the novice player can use effectively and team synergy is simplified.
6. It is a bar skill not just a single skill - logical conclusion = Your active skill bar is predetermined making poor skill choices and team skill synergy irrelevant for all but the monks so speeds team formation and skill checking.

Again, MY POINT IS, I despise grinding points and now I am grinding points, so this skill better not be nerfed or all my grinding will be for not. It is like spending money on a Ferrari and a few days after you enjoy it someone steals your car and replaces it with a bicycle.

KennyC · Feb 13, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

why do you buy the ferrari?

You bought it because its cool and not many people have one.

But everyone has UB now and they are all driving around in their ferraris like so many identical clones bashing those
C,1,2,3,4 SPACE buttons as fast as they can.

It's ruined PVE, taken all the challenge out of it and made all titles worthless because they are now attainable by anyone.

Demandred · Feb 13, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Not actually, its allowed my assasin main to get a mallyx statue in HoM

Edit: (submitted too soon >.>)

how has it made ALL titles worthless? ok cool UB is so gonna help me get my last explorer and help me max wisdom. However i think it has made vanquisher and guardian alot easier to achieve but because you cant get it on your heros, it still requires some brain power if ur the only one using it and ur hero and henching like i do.

Abedeus · Feb 13, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

What if there are 3 ursans + healer? Any other combination of non-ursan players is worse than ursanway. Or 6 ursans + 2 healers. Ursan requires as much brain power as remembering your birth date.

Demandred · Feb 13, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Ok, lets preted someone is going to vanquish an area, they are in a new guild with a marvellous 2 members, who are currently busy with other stuff, the outposts that allow entrance to the area are empty, oh oh wait, that means he cant go with more ursans and will have to take heros! :O what a surprise, so the player decides to take ursan blessing(a skill he has worked hard to max to reap its benifits in such a case) along, to ensure generic all round damage for those nasty blockers who are currently residing in the area, and he also starts picking his heros whom he will take, and Oh what a surprise hes made all the hero builds himself with his experience that hes gained through his GW experiences. Still only need that small amount of brain power for ursan blessing in this case? this was the case i was referring to, so perhaps think before posting?

Abedeus · Feb 13, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Uhm, I'm not the one that has to think. Grinding 24/7 =/= hard work. Instead of grinding, he could just try to make a valid builds.

And other lesson - don't make a guild with 2 members, unless you aren't expecting... anything. Better join a larger guild with more members and a big alliance.

And if someone choose UB, then made builds for his heroes... Who knows if they will work? If he gave your heroes builds at same level as those first given from A.Net (every char x/mo, resurrect and ,,capable of healing teammates'' - epic fail), he didn't learn a crap.

Oh, I understand someone is forbidding you organizing a PuG vanquish with your precious UB?

skanvak · Feb 14, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Demandred,

What you are saying is an easy way to play GW alone. Even with heroes and henchmen HM is somehow easy if you take UB. Beside getting with a group and a good guild IS the fun in GW. So people asking to be able to solo the title are, again, making this MMORPG game meaningless.

Already playing with heroes was pierceve to be easier than playing with pick up players. Now people can just play alone except the hardest of the hardest part, that is DOA (one of my guild member defeated Duncan alone with heroes, henchmen and UB to get there).

The main point, if we want to limit the debate, is that UB is THE skill. Do you people say the same thing of the Crow or wolf blessing? No. And, btw, LoD got nerfed. All we want is UB to be somewhat in line with other elite skill, even is marginally better and avoid the one skill bar syndrom.

Look at my proposal to fix it, I don't say that the damage should be lowered, only to have a real recharge time so that ALWAYS fighting in UB during a mission should not be possible.

Demandred · Feb 14, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

well to each his own, i personally do everything alone or with a friend or 2, there are a few things about ursan blessing that i do not like, such as how its made DoA too easy, and i can just see tormented weps going the ele sword route, which is worrying, however i like the fact that its nice to vanquish with, after getting canthan and elonian vanquisher the old fashioned way with heros hench and my trusty PvE build, i find UB a nice treat especially in Tyria. Perhaps change something in it to make it LESS easy to play, but dont break it altogether, its made vanquishing tyria alot more efficient to me.

KennyC · Feb 14, 2008, 12:32 PM // 12:32

If you had trouble vanquishing before UB and now its easy, then thats a clear indicator that it's totally unbalanced skill.

The bottom line is that it needs either changing or removing.

If you leave it like it is everyone will use UB and not use any other skills, people who before UB couldnt get vanquish, guardian and other titles for whatever reason (inexperience, low skill, crap pugs etc) will get those titles and other titles with ease. And those that actually worked and thought through their builds for those same titles will feel cheated.

The very existence of this very busy UB thread and other threads like it prove that there is as issue that needs resolving, and it needs to be resolved quickly.

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 14, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I used casual as a nice way of saying retardedly bad, but my point remains. Endgame areas are designed to give *more* of a challenge than normal areas - that's kind of the point. As such, players are expected to know *more* than just the bare minimum required to finish the game.

DoA was designed to be the most difficult of all endgame missions. It is substantially harder than any storyline content, for sure. Should a retardedly bad player with no real understanding of the game (finishing the game in NM doesn't require you to know much), be able to beat this area by C-Space 1-2-3? Ursan has reduced it to that.

Unfortunately, the game was already reduced to that long before UB came into the picture. When players can simply send a solo bot into an area to farm, we have a problem. Naturally, this problem is not inherent to GW alone, but it is a symptom of the genre and a evidence that no matter how much we talk about balance in a game, it can never truly be achieved. That doesn't mean we need to dumb down the game to the lowest common denominator, but in a game designed for the casual player, certain concessions must be made to the core audience. Much has changed in GW since Prophecies was released, a lot that caters to the more hardcore type of player. GW was never supposed to be a game about grind - yet we have grind, GW was never supposed to be a game about leetism, yet we have leetism. I simply view UB, and an attempt to place a band-aid over some of the imperfect core mechanics of the game and bring it back to some of the things it was originally supposed to be about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, and of course Ursan is better, but this elite is better than any other elite in game.

And that doesn't make sense because ...? PvE skills were created to allow players to avoid the PvP nerfbat and to offer alternatives to the standared AP type of skillbuilding. By nature it makes sense that they would be some of the stronger skills available, and the PvE Elites even more so. If they weren't it would kind of defeat the purpose. The fact that UB is the strongest of these skills is just keeping in line with the fact that all elites are not created equal. It has always been the case that some elites are more powerful than others - even within a single Attribute. It makes perfect sense for the three PvE elites to follow the same course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

It makes all rewards easily accessible to unskilled button mashers - Hard mode is supposed to be Hard, but with Ursan and these ridiculous consumables anyone can rampage through any area and vanquish it. Yes, I know we play this game for fun and yes I know that killing everything and winning is fun but there has to be a challenge, there has to be a sense of achievement and there has to be the knowledge that if you put weeks and months of hard work into your titles the person next to you needs to put the same time and effort into the game to achieve that you have. If he doesnt whats the god damn point in playing the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Uhm, I'm not the one that has to think. Grinding 24/7 =/= hard work. Instead of grinding, he could just try to make a valid builds.

I work for a living. I play games for fun. Anyone who thinks games should be work has no clue what entertainment and play mean, obviously. To say someone should have to "work" at anything in a game is just being rediculous. To say that a good game provides a challenge that is suited to the individual playing would be correct. The point of playing any game is to escape the stress and troubles of everyday life - to stimulate the mind and body and allow them to recover from the strains of everyday life. We should be playing this game like we play any other - for fun and enjoyment. We should be playing this game to take satisfaction from being able to achieve goals by playing in the manner that is most fun and enjoyable to use. We should not be playing this game or any other in order to validate ourselves either in game or in the real world based upon how others view us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

But everyone has UB now and they are all driving around in their ferraris like so many identical clones bashing those
C,1,2,3,4 SPACE buttons as fast as they can.

And what was DoA prior to Ursan - just a bunch of cloned teams running through the same area with rare exception, so UB has not changed the fact that Build Experimentation ends up being just running a clone build that is the most effective for any given area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

The main point, if we want to limit the debate, is that UB is THE skill. Do you people say the same thing of the Crow or wolf blessing? No. And, btw, LoD got nerfed. All we want is UB to be somewhat in line with other elite skill, even is marginally better and avoid the one skill bar syndrom.

Look at my proposal to fix it, I don't say that the damage should be lowered, only to have a real recharge time so that ALWAYS fighting in UB during a mission should not be possible.

The problem here is, we can limit this debate to UB alone, but in terms of game play balance, the perception of ease over difficulty, a player's terms of how to have fun playing the game, and the issue of perceived status are all interconnected issues and cannot by themselves be resolved solely through a change to UB, so any argument to nerf or remove UB, must take all of these issues into account.

In terms of setting a recharge limit to the skill, that would be a useless change. All a group would need to do in that case is simply wait out the recharge period in between battles, hence requiring an overly long recharge time in order to make the skill less useful in the elite areas, which would then simply be rediculous in terms of game play. Nerfing UB would necessitate Anet re-visiting all areas and quests in which it is used by NPCs and allies, thus perhaps necessitating a re-balancing of those areas, quests and NPCs. The Magni tournament is case in point. It is also a good example of why, in the grand scheme of things, UB is not as all power and without counters as we would believe. If it were, coupled with Magni's Boss buffs and the fact that he can use normal skills while in form (Unbalance anyone?), Magni would be completely and totally unbeatable one on one. Clearly this is not the case.

***

All this debate comes down to is whether UB is unbalancing the game. If it needs to be nerfed because of this issue, then anything that is unbalanced in the game needs removal or adjusting, such as consumables, such as Holy Damage dealing double damage to undead, such as any individual or team build that allows players to conquer areas with fewer than the max party limitations for that area. The fact that there are builds that allow this when an area is *supposed* to be balanced towards a full party (be it 4, 6, or 8 players), then we have imbalance in the game. This imbalance has existed since the beginning of the game. If we are to nerf UB using the excuse of imbalace, then anything that is imbalanced should be nerfed, including these builds that allow less than a full party or full skillbar to be successful in any given area in order to have a "fair" and "good" game, should it not?

Hanok Odbrook

You can't see me · Feb 15, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

In any online game, new updates will allow players to perform tasks faster or easier than they were if the tasks are not in turn updated to become harder.

Ursan is just another example of this. Maybe it came too fast, considering not many things were even near its power when it first came, but... like it or not, that's the road Online Games follow.

Now, I noticed a quote up there that said that the only thing Pro Ursan arguments add up to is that it does not take away from others experience and they should be allowed to use /godmode.

Just to make this fair, I'll point out the only thing Anti Ursan arguments add up to.

"I did all these things the Hard way and now there's an easy way so my E-Peen will be shorter and this is bad! Change it!"

^ Whine Moar Pleez. Just hit /SuperEasy like everyone else. It's not like PvE was not already /Easy on its own.

MMSDome · Feb 15, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

@abe your proving my point, there are PuGs who fail mainly because not everyone is as fprtuinate to find the right guild.

@mmsdome. i didnt say it was available to all. thoe abe was saying it was. so i was assuming everyone could get in a good guild[which they cant or not until they find one]

you wont find a good guild using ursan though

Sab · Feb 15, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Unfortunately, the game was already reduced to that long before UB came into the picture. When players can simply send a solo bot into an area to farm, we have a problem. Naturally, this problem is not inherent to GW alone, but it is a symptom of the genre and a evidence that no matter how much we talk about balance in a game, it can never truly be achieved. That doesn't mean we need to dumb down the game to the lowest common denominator, but in a game designed for the casual player, certain concessions must be made to the core audience. Much has changed in GW since Prophecies was released, a lot that caters to the more hardcore type of player. GW was never supposed to be a game about grind - yet we have grind, GW was never supposed to be a game about leetism, yet we have leetism. I simply view UB, and an attempt to place a band-aid over some of the imperfect core mechanics of the game and bring it back to some of the things it was originally supposed to be about.

I think you misunderstand grinding in Guild Wars. Ursan requires grinding. If a player is sufficiently bad that he needs Ursan to get through certain areas, then that player needs to either learn to play better, or farm Norn points and blow up the problem with Ursan. Why you may appreciate the choice, why should grinding be a replacement for getting better at the game? If this game is not about grind, the second option should not exist - players needs to get better through learning, not get better through grinding.

As for elitism, what's the problem? Good players should be rewarded better than bad players, that's fundamentally how this genre works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

I work for a living. I play games for fun. Anyone who thinks games should be work has no clue what entertainment and play mean, obviously. To say someone should have to "work" at anything in a game is just being rediculous. To say that a good game provides a challenge that is suited to the individual playing would be correct. The point of playing any game is to escape the stress and troubles of everyday life - to stimulate the mind and body and allow them to recover from the strains of everyday life. We should be playing this game like we play any other - for fun and enjoyment. We should be playing this game to take satisfaction from being able to achieve goals by playing in the manner that is most fun and enjoyable to use. We should not be playing this game or any other in order to validate ourselves either in game or in the real world based upon how others view us.

"Because it's fun" is a pretty bad argument. You can use it to justify wanting anything in the game. I want a full set of FoW for my character but I don't want to farm for it. I want a shiny gold animal emote but I don't want to play HA. Or in the case of Ursan, I want to finish this elite mission but I don't want the challenge that comes with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And what was DoA prior to Ursan - just a bunch of cloned teams running through the same area with rare exception, so UB has not changed the fact that Build Experimentation ends up being just running a clone build that is the most effective for any given area.

Bad players couldn't get through pre-Ursan DoA with any sort of efficiency because they were bad. Now they can.

skanvak · Feb 15, 2008, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Thank you, Sab, for answering Hanok Odbrook. I tend to avoid answering specious (faulty logic) argument.

Is holy damage unbalance? no, it is pretty weak against anything that is not undead.
Is consumable inbalance? no, they come at a great price
Is farming alone is really imbalace? no, because no single build can farm alone whole zone every where. Beside Anet did update the UW to prevent that.

The point with UB is that it does every zone, better than any farm build AND has no, absolutly no drawback.

Last point, if you want cheap fun because you are working and want to go your pace then buy a solo game! There are dozens of very good solo game for that that are quite better than GW. GW is about competition with other player, not cheap and garanteed fun.

Kyrein · Feb 15, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

ursan fails against e denial.........pity it isnt very common

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 15, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

Is holy damage unbalance? no, it is pretty weak against anything that is not undead.
Is consumable inbalance? no, they come at a great price
Is farming alone is really imbalace? no, because no single build can farm alone whole zone every where. Beside Anet did update the UW to prevent that.

1 - Yes it is. It is not any weaker than any other comparable damage such as dark damage and chaos damage, but neither one of those damage types have such a huge buff against a particular type of monster that I recall, so yes, in terms of damage types Holy damage is unbalanced.

2 - Again, yes they are. Exactly what great price are you talking about? The handful of minutes it takes to complete the quests that reward them? Or the less than an hour it takes to farm the materials to craft them? Even less than that if you simply buy the materials. Gold cost is insignificant in this game - many platinum can be had in less than an hour, so there really is no great cost.

3 - Doesn't matter whether it's the entire area or not (although in many areas the entire area is possible), again, any and all areas should theoretically be balanced to the max party size allowable, therefore, whether it is right outside the portal, or on the other side of the zone, if any build can survive with little difficulty or with botting with less than the party max, then it is unbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

The point with UB is that it does every zone, better than any farm build AND has no, absolutly no drawback.

UB can be interrupted while being cast
UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD
UB has no defense against conditions
UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills
UB has no defense against energy drain skills
UB has no defense against damage reversal skills
UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

Last point, if you want cheap fun because you are working and want to go your pace then buy a solo game! There are dozens of very good solo game for that that are quite better than GW. GW is about competition with other player, not cheap and garanteed fun.

I usually refrain from responding to immaterial and irrelevant statements such as this, but I enjoy the entertainment this thread brings so .... Actually GW is a COORPG (Co-Operative RPG) and not an MMORPG.
The only real competition in the game involves the PvP arenas and the Challenge Missions. If you want true competition go play Linage or Eve Online.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I think you misunderstand grinding in Guild Wars. Ursan requires grinding. If a player is sufficiently bad that he needs Ursan to get through certain areas, then that player needs to either learn to play better, or farm Norn points and blow up the problem with Ursan. Why you may appreciate the choice, why should grinding be a replacement for getting better at the game? If this game is not about grind, the second option should not exist - players needs to get better through learning, not get better through grinding.

And I didn't say I was happy with things like the grind titles, and to further the point, the Hall of Monuments. I think that both additions to the game have weakened the original premise. The point with UB is that a casual player can now actually spend the limited time he has advancing through the game instead of spending countless hours with trial and error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

As for elitism, what's the problem? Good players should be rewarded better than bad players, that's fundamentally how this genre works.

And they are - with the self-satisfaction and knowledge that they have accomplished their goals and tested their skill to become better players. They are also rewarded with respect among their peers. If you are talking about the tangible in game rewards, well, I already answered that several posts ago - hardly rewarding when those items are easily bought and sold, or a simple (or not so simple run) can be bought to achieve the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

"Because it's fun" is a pretty bad argument. You can use it to justify wanting anything in the game. I want a full set of FoW for my character but I don't want to farm for it. I want a shiny gold animal emote but I don't want to play HA. Or in the case of Ursan, I want to finish this elite mission but I don't want the challenge that comes with it. Bad players couldn't get through pre-Ursan DoA with any sort of efficiency because they were bad. Now they can.

Well, if we don't play games for fun, then what the heck are we doing. I certainly don't go to work because its fun - I go because I have to. Last time I checked, no one is forced to buy or play a game, therefore, if it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. Therefore, I think fun is pretty big point here as the entire gaming industry's existence is based around that very concept. And yes, it can be used to justify wanting anything in any game, and it is up to the creators of that game to decide what they will and will not provide. Pre-Ursan, skilled casual players didn't have the time to find a party and vanquish DoA. Now they can.

Let's face facts here. UB has been around for nine months or so - and this issue nearly as long. Clearly Anet knows about - heck they even updated the skill to make it actually work the way it does in the storyline quest. In addition to that, the game and the skills were tested and re-tested long before release, so we really aren't telling them anything they probably don't know already. In terms of KennyC's comment a few posts ago, as far as we know, this issue HAS already been resolved in their minds - case closed. The resolution just doesn't happen to be one that you or many others likely approve of. The same can be said about any decision Anet has made - I detest the current pet corpse nerf because it makes no sense in my mind (aside from the PvP balance issue of course), coupled with the fact that only player pets are affected - mob pets still leave exploitable corpses. But I have accepted the fact that the change has been made, and from all appearances is a permanent one. I still don't like it, but I have gotten over it.

Hanok Odbrook

Sab · Feb 16, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And I didn't say I was happy with things like the grind titles, and to further the point, the Hall of Monuments. I think that both additions to the game have weakened the original premise. The point with UB is that a casual player can now actually spend the limited time he has advancing through the game instead of spending countless hours with trial and error.

His limited time grinding the Norn title you mean? If a player has so little time to play, then he's probably just going through the storyline, which isn't that difficult to begin with. If he is truly stuck, he could look for advice on Wiki or the forums, or god forbid, ask for help ingame (it is a multiplayer game, after all). There's absolutely no need for a casual player to resort to Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And they are - with the self-satisfaction and knowledge that they have accomplished their goals and tested their skill to become better players. They are also rewarded with respect among their peers. If you are talking about the tangible in game rewards, well, I already answered that several posts ago - hardly rewarding when those items are easily bought and sold, or a simple (or not so simple run) can be bought to achieve the same.

People who get runs through difficult content (e.g. HM vanquishing or guardian) does not justify the right for others to do the same with Ursan. Just because something is exploitable, it doesn't mean others should exploit it too, by the same or different means (take duping or the recent Mallyx exploit for example).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Well, if we don't play games for fun, then what the heck are we doing. I certainly don't go to work because its fun - I go because I have to. Last time I checked, no one is forced to buy or play a game, therefore, if it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it. Therefore, I think fun is pretty big point here as the entire gaming industry's existence is based around that very concept. And yes, it can be used to justify wanting anything in any game, and it is up to the creators of that game to decide what they will and will not provide. Pre-Ursan, skilled casual players didn't have the time to find a party and vanquish DoA. Now they can.

I've never said that games shouldn't be fun? The fact is, there has to be rules within a game that may not be fun.

Take FoW armor, for example. Farming for a set of FoW isn't particularly fun, but it's meant to be super-expensive, that's what differentiates FoW armor from any other kind of armor. If you shortcut this by, say, Ebaying Gold, then that kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

Similarly, elite missions exist for the challenge, that's what differentiates it from normal missions. And as a reward for the challenge, elite missions offer more titles and better drops than normal missions. If you circumvent the challenge by getting a run or Ursanwaying, then what's the point in playing these *elite* missions?

DoA was not designed for casual players, period. If you think a casual player (even a skilled casual player) should be able to complete it, you're mistaken. It was designed to take a huge chunk of your time, in planning and in actual play-time, and it was made to offer a much more difficult challenge than anything that existed in the game. That's the point of DoA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

UB can be interrupted while being cast
UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD
UB has no defense against conditions
UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills
UB has no defense against energy drain skills
UB has no defense against damage reversal skills
UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage

Do you actually know what you're talking about, or are you just theorycrafting counters? I'd argue point-by-point, but it's easier to say chain-AoE KD (from a pack of Ursans) and Monks deal with the majority of those "counters" you listed. The other "counters" aren't prevalent enough in the game to matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Let's face facts here. UB has been around for nine months or so - and this issue nearly as long. Clearly Anet knows about - heck they even updated the skill to make it actually work the way it does in the storyline quest. In addition to that, the game and the skills were tested and re-tested long before release, so we really aren't telling them anything they probably don't know already. In terms of KennyC's comment a few posts ago, as far as we know, this issue HAS already been resolved in their minds - case closed. The resolution just doesn't happen to be one that you or many others likely approve of. The same can be said about any decision Anet has made - I detest the current pet corpse nerf because it makes no sense in my mind (aside from the PvP balance issue of course), coupled with the fact that only player pets are affected - mob pets still leave exploitable corpses. But I have accepted the fact that the change has been made, and from all appearances is a permanent one. I still don't like it, but I have gotten over it.

ANet have no idea what they're doing when it comes to skill balances, I'm surprised you give them this much credit. The main example off the top of my head is Soul Reaping, which was exploited for around two years before it was finally toned down (and they still didn't do a good job of it). Other issues in PvP traditionally take months to resolve, and the solution usually brings up more problems, which take even longer to fix.

ANet changes their stances on things, as well. Like reconnects, first stating that it couldn't be done, then finding a way to implement that a year later.

blue.rellik · Feb 16, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

UB can be interrupted while being cast - interuppts are not very common. Anyway, only a idiot would use it when there's lots of interuppts flying around
UB cannot knock down foes who are imune to KD - so?
UB has no defense against conditions - so?
UB has no defense against HP stealing/draining skills so?
UB has no defense against energy drain skills - so?
UB has no defense against damage reversal skills - so?
UB has no defense against armor ignoring damage so?

Please at least think of some counters that are actually, you know, common and dangerous