Curse

Sab · Feb 12, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Except to buy it from someone who has gotten the reward. Perhaps you missed this point I have made on more than one occasion. The status of the reward is moot if it can be bought by someone who didn't earn it. At least, with the Ursanway teams, they are actually going into the area.

That doesn't apply to Vanquisher, Guardian, and other HoM achievements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Actually, I wouldn't mind that at all. Again, titles, gold, rewards, all of that is just so much fluff to me. I play this game for fun. I set my own goals and things I want to achieve. My satisfaction comes from being able to obtain those goals - not what other players may think of the visible results of those goals or rewards.

If you play GW like a single player game, sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

True, but the point of contention here was that UB takes little skill to use. I simply argued the fact that it is not alone in that category. Regardless of whether any of the other "idiot" builds can be used in any or all areas of the game, UB is not unique to this point. However, with the proper team (just like running full Ursanway), even any of the "idiot" builds could probably be successful in the hardest parts as well.

Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

But it's still content included in the game. Personally speaking, I don't think even the "extra" content should be denied to anyone, if it is something they would enjoy playing. This is especially true for those casual gamers who simply may not have the time to dedicate to learning the intricacies of BEing their specific profession. Simply because someone plays GW part time does not mean they do not "deserve" to play and succeed in these areas using only the basic forms of tactics and strategies taught by playing through the game.

Again, no one is *denied* the endgame content, I don't know where you're getting this idea from. People either choose to put in the effort it takes to complete the endgame content and reap the rewards, or they choose not to. But if they choose not to, why do they deserve the same rewards?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

As I have - with a character of each prime and never having to change secondary or use UB myself. As I said before (either here, or in another thread) most of the time I forget that a particular character I am playing has the skill unlocked. When I run into trouble, I simply analyze what I did wrong and head back to try different tactics. About 90-95% of the time, I succeed on one or more following runs without ever having to change one skill.

What's stopping anybody else from doing the same?

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 12, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle

The key question has not been answered by Ursan defenders. Can you think of any skill mechanic that could ever be considered imbalancing for PvE? Would a skill that killed all the mobs on the map with one button press be bad for the game? I should hope you think it is. Anet has in the past with PvE-specific nerfs. Now ask yourself why this is.

The same logic applies to Ursan. It obviates the need for any build design or planning. It throws any modicum of required skill completely out the window. Come up with a rationale for Ursan that doesn't apply to the Auto-Kill skill.

Again, this does not describe UB. UB is hardly Godmode, it is hardly a panacea for some of the problems inherent in the game, so this is a moot point. But then again, how many skill balances have we had since GW:EN was released - at least four or five major ones I believe with at least a half dozen other minor ones in between. And you are right - other PvE skills have been nerfed (and buffed) along with the regular skills in some of these balance changes. Perhaps you should ask why in all this time and with all the other changes, UB has not except for one small update which actually made perfectly logical sense.

However, let me ask you this: at what point does an area created for an 8-man party become unbalanced when a two monk team can vanquish the area through some creative button mashing (without UB on either skillbar)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Price check on Mallyx statues and LV titles pls

About the same as the Party Animal and Sweet Tooth tracks, oh, and any of the other Eternal Hero or Conqueror statues, I imagine. And the last time I checked, the HoM was still about personal accomplishments and confer no in-game benefit whatsoever, nor will whatever benefit it confers to GW2 offer any player an in-game advantage over another. What's the going rate of runs nowadays?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

IMHO if Ursan existed in rl, we could all be athlete-celebrity-geniuses in no time at all, which isn't fair to the people who dedicated time to learning something or were just born good at it. I'm siding with Sab on this one, just because I want everything in rl and that's what would make me happy doesn't mean I deserve it. Ursan takes away much if not ALL of the challenge of certain areas and the fact that someone whose been playing 4-6 months can put this on their bar and mash 3 buttons in no particular order, can be as good as someone whose been playing since release isn't fair at all.

But as so many other people are fond of pointing out - this is a game, it is not real life. Also as many other people are fond of pointing out - UB actually needs little skill in order to be used, therefore someone who uses UB exclusively will never "be as good as someone whose been playing since release." And since you have brought it up, I am sure many people on this board, both pro and anti Ursan can point to examples where players who have played since April of 2005 still "suck" even if they have never used UB. Anyone can throw on a typical CC or farming build and still be able to succeed with it no matter how long they have been playing the game. UB is hardly unique in that regard. What's the going rate for runs again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

What's stopping anybody else from doing the same?

It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.

Hanok Odbrook

Abedeus · Feb 12, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

About the same as the Party Animal and Sweet Tooth tracks, oh, and any of the other Eternal Hero or Conqueror statues, I imagine. And the last time I checked, the HoM was still about personal accomplishments and confer no in-game benefit whatsoever, nor will whatever benefit it confers to GW2 offer any player an in-game advantage over another. What's the going rate of runs nowadays?

What? Are you, pardon my french, stupid? A title requiring (before Ursan) a lot of skill and team building is in your opinion worth as much as a title you can BUY and CLICK to max level in few hours?

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 12, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

So why not take bots or hacks? Efficiency > game balance, no?

I would, except that 1, I'm too lazy to write one, and 2, ArenaNet does not allow that and I follow their laws. Therefore, until ArenaNet gives botting their official approval, I will never use that.

That leaves Ursan, a ready-made, ArenaNet-approved gimmick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I thought one of the key cornerstones of GW was "Skill over time spent"?

I agree most wholeheartedly, but I think the idea of skill over time spent has been dead for quite a while. Until they re-implement the idea of skill over time spent, we might as well use the tools they are giving us. (As monk it is fully unnecessary for me to grind the Norn title. The Ursans themselves can do that. I'll keep my regular build while they grind up to r10.)

----------------------------------------

I must clarify that I'd much rather Ursan was removed from the game. I just want to make the point that while it's here we might as well make the best use of it that we can, since it is a powerful, easy to use tool. I'll be glad when it's gone and when (maybe?) skill takes priority over time spent, but I don't see that happening ever while ArenaNet is the developer.

=HT=Ingram · Feb 12, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Ursan was yet another stepping stone to drive away the people that made GW successful from the beginning. Indeed PvE skills was suppose to be a protection buffer from nerf bats from PvP. and as it turns out it has been. the down side has become more solo play then EVER before.. and what little multiplayer Cooperative action there is you have no choice but to use an Ursan build. If you do not you stand no chance in hell of getting people to play with outside of a good guild or alliance. As it is you get an invite they take 1 look at your skill bar and if no ursan you immediately kicked from the party.

That here in is the problem. Personally I don't give a crap anymore. I play it solo and will continue to do so for the rest of its existence now (maybe a year if your lucky). Its a single player game, with nothing of value in it except to waste a little time every once in a while.... At least until the GW2 beta start...

so forgive me for saying I told you so, way back when this skill first hit... it would be a problem... Especially without the threat of a nerf bat to it for being over exploited... Oh and thanks to this skill alone, Gold sellers are back 1000 fold. Gee thanks Anet. I stopped reporting gold sellers as I just do not see the point anymore. for every 50 i report 100 more spam bots pop up... Its so bad now I have to contend with it even in emails to master account profiles!!! which is so god dam pathetic....

Buying gold for an online game is like having virtual sex with a $5 wh0re. Whats the point? I just wish every one of these communist pigs would just go away and allow a game to be for what it is instead of promoting CHEATING!

misguiding_prophet · Feb 12, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Dervish has an extremely powerful hurting abilities? What? It's a perfectly balanced class - it can moderately well tank, deal damage at same level as warrior, yet has less armor, for exchange of a bit more hp.

And elementalist... Well, in EVERY RPG there is such class. In DnD it's Mystic Theurge/magician classes/clerics (death magic), in WoW there is a nuker, in Ragnarok Online it's High Wizard, in Diablo 2 it's Sorceress or Druid... It's just a standard class, like a healing cleric/monk or tanking warror/cyborg. Besides, a Necromancer can deal as much damage as elementalist, in HM even more (Spiteful Spirit ignores armor, and since monsters use skills/attack faster, it deals more damage than in NM - and mobs have increased armor, so their uber power is almost reduced to 0).

Saying that,,at least 2 professions implies that (...)(perhaps all of them)'' means almost same as ,,all characters can deal a lot of damage''. So they are balanced... But you don't get the point.

Ursan:
1. +200 health.
2. +20 armor.
3. Speed boost.
4. Armor-ignoring damage (about 100 every 4 seconds).
5. Mass weakness and increased physical damage.
6. Perma-knockdown and AoE damage.
7. Ability to hide 7 other skills when Ursan is down.
8. Everything said above is, as long as skills are being spammed, maintained even for 3 hours.

The reason I mentioned the two was because I could clear most places in factions and eotn in HM using those two professions (in some places solo sufficed, and no I didnt use a secondary monk) without any difficulty.

I dunno why you are complaining so much about its power, its a welcomed change by many. Those who dislike it are definitely a minority. I'd love to pwn Shiro using Ursan lol.

Sab · Feb 12, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.

What? A casual player who does not want to spend the same amount of time and effort as a more serious player should *not* be rewarded the same. This is fundamentally what MMORPGs are based on. If a player chooses to play casually, then he implicitly denies himself of the higher-end rewards which are reserved for serious players. He is not entitled to everything just because he bought the game, rather, he has the choice to play casually and accept that he won't get the better rewards, or take it a bit more seriously and earn the rewards.

This is where Ursan comes in - it allows casual players to obtain the same rewards as serious players, but without any of the effort. A casual player with Ursan is functionally just as good as a serious player with Ursan or a proper build. If your argument is that Ursan is the same as any other farming build, I've addressed this already in the form of a question: Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?

Hanok Odbrook · Feb 12, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What? Are you, pardon my french, stupid? A title requiring (before Ursan) a lot of skill and team building is in your opinion worth as much as a title you can BUY and CLICK to max level in few hours?

Well, not so far as I know - or at least not according to some of the intelligence tests I took as a kid. I simply do not need titles or praise from other players to validate my existence. Sweet Tooth and Eternal Hero/Conqueror are the same to me because they are both fluff that have no overall bearing on the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

What? A casual player who does not want to spend the same amount of time and effort as a more serious player should *not* be rewarded the same. This is fundamentally what MMORPGs are based on. If a player chooses to play casually, then he implicitly denies himself of the higher-end rewards which are reserved for serious players. He is not entitled to everything just because he bought the game, rather, he has the choice to play casually and accept that he won't get the better rewards, or take it a bit more seriously and earn the rewards.

I think the problem here is that you are confusing poor player with casual player. They are not one and the same. A casual player is simply one who may or may not have large chunks of free time to dedicate to more hardcore type of aspects of gaming. UB is the great equalizer in that it gives that player with little free time the opportunity to enjoy all areas of the game that they might not otherwise - no matter how much they would desire to do so in the "proper" way. Again, personally I don't have a problem with that. GW is a great game and I would simply like to have the largest amount of people given the opportunity to enjoy every aspect of it. That doesn't mean I think the p**s-poor players have a "right" to any given area, but simply that if a person plays through the game in a normal manner, the skills and tactics he picks up along the way should be more than enough to allow them the "right" to enter any area they would like to visit, without having to dedicate too much extra time on the more hardcore aspects of the game. That's what we have PvP for - a place where the truly good players can show off their prowess and the wannabes run home with their tails tucked between their legs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

This is where Ursan comes in - it allows casual players to obtain the same rewards as serious players, but without any of the effort. A casual player with Ursan is functionally just as good as a serious player with Ursan or a proper build. If your argument is that Ursan is the same as any other farming build, I've addressed this already in the form of a question: Why was DoA relatively empty before Ursan, and filled with "Ursan lfg" now, if Ursan is not unique?

Because there are other areas that are more effective farming areas with most of the farming builds, and DoA was simply a place for the select few who cared to venture forth. UB has simply become the most effective tool now for this area. I certainly haven't seen Ursanway overtaking 600/Smite for the CoF run yet.

Sab · Feb 12, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

I think the problem here is that you are confusing poor player with casual player. They are not one and the same. A casual player is simply one who may or may not have large chunks of free time to dedicate to more hardcore type of aspects of gaming. UB is the great equalizer in that it gives that player with little free time the opportunity to enjoy all areas of the game that they might not otherwise - no matter how much they would desire to do so in the "proper" way. Again, personally I don't have a problem with that. GW is a great game and I would simply like to have the largest amount of people given the opportunity to enjoy every aspect of it. That doesn't mean I think the p**s-poor players have a "right" to any given area, but simply that if a person plays through the game in a normal manner, the skills and tactics he picks up along the way should be more than enough to allow them the "right" to enter any area they would like to visit, without having to dedicate too much extra time on the more hardcore aspects of the game. That's what we have PvP for - a place where the truly good players can show off their prowess and the wannabes run home with their tails tucked between their legs.

I used casual as a nice way of saying retardedly bad, but my point remains. Endgame areas are designed to give *more* of a challenge than normal areas - that's kind of the point. As such, players are expected to know *more* than just the bare minimum required to finish the game.

DoA was designed to be the most difficult of all endgame missions. It is substantially harder than any storyline content, for sure. Should a retardedly bad player with no real understanding of the game (finishing the game in NM doesn't require you to know much), be able to beat this area by C-Space 1-2-3? Ursan has reduced it to that.

enmitee · Feb 12, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Since pugs are so "noob", play with guildies or friends? That seems like a pretty good idea.

if that was a available idea to all, why the hell not. but it isnt. thus making UB a blessing

Abedeus · Feb 12, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Why not? If your guild isn't playing together, change it. If you are the leader, get active people.

If you are in a PvP guild... Then don't play pve ;o I don't understand ,,why the hell not, but it isn't''. Care to elaborate?

And I'm still waiting for a build that can do same what UB. I made a list of those things on page nr. 6. Skill that overpowered doesn't deserve to live.

enmitee · Feb 12, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

so tell me why there are still random PuGs?

Abedeus · Feb 12, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Because all pugs fail, and ursan lets them not fail, although they would fail even with 600/smite?

gerg-nad · Feb 12, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Please do not nerf Ursan Blessing.

If I am going to GRIND points out to increase my Norn Rank, this better not be for not. I detest the monotony of grinding points.

When I first tried Ursanway team I was getting disheartened. This team is so overpowering and simple it take very little if any skill or thought. This is especially sad where many of the elite areas which gave you a sense of accomplishment, took some understanding of the game, team balance, and synergy, now can be done by any 3 year old and one skill. Just put this one skill on your bar, press it, then run around and use the set of only 4 skills when they come available to kill things. Oh BTW, before you do this spend weeks and GRIND a bunch of points in Norn to max your title, so you can do any area, mission, quest, HM or NM with ease. And BTW you don't need but one character class, since this skill is equally available and effective with any class. Healing may be the only skills or character class you may want as an alternative, but your heros will probably work just fine.

So this may sound kinda negative, but the fact of the matter is the Ursan can be fun and it is very efficient. In elite missions, much of it is about efficiency and probability of success, so if you can do something in less than half the time with a very high likelihood of success thats the team I want to be on.

I detest grinding points (because of the monotony), but have started grinding on a number of my 10 toons. If the skill is nerfed all my time spent Grinding Points will be for not as this PvE skills has motivated me to get my level up.

I play all classes, 6 pretty regularly, and very much enjoy synergistic teams (teams where skills are complimentary). There still are a few areas that are using non-ursan synergistic team builds, and play these areas regularly. I have played all the elite areas and done dozens of runs for each. Whether it is DOA, Slavers, or Urgoz, The Deep, or even UW, FOW, Sorrows Furnace or Tombs. I was a staple at DOA before EotN and before and after the door glitch was fixed on Mallyx.

I play not for titles, as they tend to be a grind, but for the interaction with real people and accomplishing the task. This is especially rewarding when the task takes skill, understanding, and teamwork, such as elite areas.

So you cannot deny for a very efficienct and high probability of success, UB FTW in all of GW.

jaeharys targaryen · Feb 12, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Dervish has an extremely powerful hurting abilities? What? It's a perfectly balanced class - it can moderately well tank, deal damage at same level as warrior, yet has less armor, for exchange of a bit more hp.

You.

Fail.

k?
k.

Abedeus · Feb 12, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

You.

Fail.

k?
k.

K. You fail at noting this is PvE. The only way Dervish is better than other classes (we're talking about damage dealing) is that he can use his Avatars for much longer than in PvP (Eternal Aura). If we are talking about pure damage, Spiteful Spirit/MB + Rodgort/minion mastering is much better.

Oh, and of course Ursan is better, but this elite is better than any other elite in game.

KennyC · Feb 12, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Ursan Needs to be removed from the game, plain and simple. And while we are at it remove those damn consumables too.

It makes all rewards easily accessible to unskilled button mashers - Hard mode is supposed to be Hard, but with Ursan and these ridiculous consumables anyone can rampage through any area and vanquish it. Yes, I know we play this game for fun and yes I know that killing everything and winning is fun but there has to be a challenge, there has to be a sense of achievement and there has to be the knowledge that if you put weeks and months of hard work into your titles the person next to you needs to put the same time and effort into the game to achieve that you have. If he doesnt whats the god damn point in playing the game?

The people that earned their titles with a modicum of skill now stand alongside people that use consumables and press 1,2,3,4 C SPACE as fast as they can without having to pay attention to the game. It's ridiculous!

FFS - look at DOA! It was an ELITE area that a select few people that put in time and effort to learn the area and figure out how to win with skill and finesse - now its full of hundreds of 1,2,3,4 C SPACERS shouting Ursan R10 lfg!

Ursan is a monumental mistake - erase it along with the consumables please!

MMSDome · Feb 13, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by enmitee

if that was a available idea to all, why the hell not. but it isnt. thus making UB a blessing

Wait so your saying you could get in a guild or make friends with out Ursan?

blue.rellik · Feb 13, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

It's called the freedom to choose how you want to play the game.

Hanok Odbrook

i liek 2 use hacks lol!!!!11!!

enmitee · Feb 13, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

@abe your proving my point, there are PuGs who fail mainly because not everyone is as fprtuinate to find the right guild.

@mmsdome. i didnt say it was available to all. thoe abe was saying it was. so i was assuming everyone could get in a good guild[which they cant or not until they find one]