Curse

Carinae · Mar 10, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Aside from neutering a single annoying healer at an opportune moment, what use is WoD? Are you really getting that much mileage from that sort of single-target shutdown?

WoD neuters everyone. Everyone.

240 damage lightning orb air ele, a physical who broke through to your backline, a healer of any type, etc

Defensively it's better than EB+SY combined.

The Meth · Mar 10, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

WoD neuters everyone. Everyone.
240 damage lightning orb air ele, a physical who broke through to your backline, a healer of any type, etc
Defensively it's better than EB+SY combined.

Umm... no? Lets assume WoD will 100% shutdown an enemy for the time its on. Echoed, it can be kept up on ONE enemy 80% of the time. EB will lower the damage from multiple physicals by 66% each, while SY will lower the damage from any armor affect source by 82%. Now, even considering that not all damage is armor affected, when either of those gets on more then 1 enemy it beats WoD easy, and can be kept up 100% of the time.

Now, as for the usefulness of SS, your other curse choices can be basically trimmed down to Feast of Corruption and Corrupt Enchantments. Corrupt enchantments is primarily good as an enchant removal, which is unneeded in PvE. Feast of Corruption is a lot harder to get good mileage out of. Leaving us with SS for reliable damage.

Assassin's promise is a good alternative, IF you have a good, coordinated team that can follow mark of pain/barb targets. Or heroes.

Carinae · Mar 10, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Umm... no? Lets assume WoD will 100% shutdown an enemy for the time its on. Echoed, it can be kept up on ONE enemy 80% of the time.

Kept up?? Kill target before it expires. Echo it it supress two targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

EB will lower the damage from multiple physicals by 66% each, while SY will lower the damage from any armor affect source by 82%. Now, even considering that not all damage is armor affected, when either of those gets on more then 1 enemy it beats WoD easy, and can be kept up 100% of the time.

EB and SY work on physicals, just SY works on eles. EB doesn't supress attack skills. WoD works on everyone. And even vs those two, I think having 0 in all attributes outweighs EB and SY. Of course, all three is better yet.

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 10, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

I used WoD tonight. The problem enemies in this mission were made ineffectual. The HH just walked all over them-as if they were a squishie, minor character. The rest of the mob went down as usual, quickly-with Barbs and weaken armor and Mark of Pain on them. And the warrior enemies did very little dmg to the casters they were chasing, with enfeebling blood and reckless haste. I'm going to have to give WoD a big 2 thumbs up. a great skill for PVE.

arcanemacabre · Mar 11, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

SS is the #1 skill for taking out Raptors (or any team of mostly Sins). Other than that, it is mediocre at best. It's still a decent "set it and forget it" skill for them frontlines, and since a Curses Necro is already running Enfeebling Blood and now Weaken Armor, they are more than equipped to remove the physical threat.

Ensign · Mar 11, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

SS has this interesting effect that the more intensely they heal, the more damage SS does.

The damage done by Spiteful is trivial compared to the amount of health returned by every cast. Spiteful on a healer is a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But once you've done that, if the target isn't dropping, there's nothing wrong with using SS to break the target.

It does a better job of that when you put it on a non-priority target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Do you have better options to deal that last 100/200/300 to a priority target?

Wail of Doom and he dies. The only way Spiteful deals 200 damage to a priority target is if it lasts its full duration. The only way it deals 300 damage is if your team is awful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Since the primary target is still taking the most heat (unless the SS-ed target is incredibly weak or the team's offense is incredibly sucky)

It should drop in the few seconds the healer is diverted unless your team's offense is incredibly sucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Aside from neutering a single annoying healer at an opportune moment, what use is WoD? Are you really getting that much mileage from that sort of single-target shutdown?

Wail of Doom makes things die. Yes, I am getting that much more mileage out of Wail of Doom than Spiteful Spirit. Spiteful Spirit is shitty and Wail of Doom is awesome. It's a pretty clear choice really.

DarkSpirit · Mar 11, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Wail of Doom makes things die. Yes, I am getting that much more mileage out of Wail of Doom than Spiteful Spirit. Spiteful Spirit is shitty and Wail of Doom is awesome. It's a pretty clear choice really.

Unless you are talking about PvP spiking, I dont see how setting all its attributes to 0 for 3-4 seconds would kill a monster.

Racthoh · Mar 11, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Unless you are talking about PvP spiking, I dont see how setting all its attributes to 0 for 3-4 seconds would kill a monster.

Physical heavy teams can drop a target in 3-4 seconds even without Wail of Doom. Sometimes less on lower AL targets.

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 11, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

WoD makes the previously difficult enemy, easy to kill, You walk over them, as if you would a lvl 1 character. Even after the hex has worn off,for a few moments the enemy seems to be confused. They just stand there as if they were stunned.

DarkSpirit · Mar 11, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

WoD makes the previously difficult enemy, easy to kill, You walk over them, as if you would a lvl 1 character. Even after the hex has worn off,for a few moments the enemy seems to be confused. They just stand there as if they were stunned.

Sounds like a bug. There is nothing in the skill description that says it should alter monster AI.

Chthon · Mar 11, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

/snip

If you're going to make a post that is so unresponsive and devoid of supporting reasoning, you really shouldn't bother. Make your case or don't make it, but don't just say "SS sucks and WoD rocks -- because I said so, that's why," which is basically all your post adds up to right now.

Also, your and my original comments were made before the new WoD came on the scene. I don't think it's entirely kosher to point to WoD as a better source of finishing power for a mob MoP+Barbs can't crack than SS when it wasn't even a viable option at the time the conversation began.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Unless you are talking about PvP spiking, I dont see how setting all its attributes to 0 for 3-4 seconds would kill a monster.

I don't either. I can see it helping with a kill if you're getting suck on a strong healer or self-healer, or maybe even a single monster that's wtfpwning your squad the instant you aggro it (although I'd suspect in that last case that it would still wtfpwn you during WoD's downtime). What I'm not getting is how it's going to do anything whatsoever about the monsters' huge AL and life totals. You're not going to whack those mountains of hp away any faster because SoD is on the target. At best I see the new SoD as a very niche skill for PvE.

As an offensive skill, WoD seems to add very little over something like broadhead arrow or great dwarf weapon. As a defensive skill, it seems to have some nice utility in an "oh shit, melee in the backline" situation, but it's short duration and lack of AoE mean that it can't really replace any of the defensive skills your party was taking before. Perhaps it's ability to do both makes it greater than the sum of its parts, but I'm still very "meh" on it.

Apropos of very little,

1. Despite the radically changed description, SoD is still very much the same skill it was before -- an interrupt (now quasi-interrupt) with some residual shutdown. The only differences are that it now works on casters, shuts down harder, and shuts down shorter.

2. I find it very odd that everyone seems to agree that mesmers are crap in PvE because shutdown is crap in PvE, and yet when necros get one halfway decent shutdown skill, suddenly it's the best thing that ever happened to PvE.

Longasc · Mar 11, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

BTW, regarding Mark of Pain / Barbs and following calls:

I agree Warrior Heroes or Henchmen are not good, especially not for Necros with MoP and Barbs. They often do things of their own and then they have to WALK/RUN before they come into melee range.

For Necros I would suggest Paragons and Rangers.
Rangers do particularly well in Hard Mode, due to high elemental armor and the option of many blocking stances or bringing pets as additional meat bags and attackers. Paragons dish out some more damage, but Barrage/Splinter Weapons usually tops their single target damage.- I guess the moment I suggest tuning down Splinter Weapon, I will get shot by someone, but it is just too well suited to the behaviour of PvE mobs and wipes the floor with them.

CTRL-click MoP, and they will attack the target at once. Warriors cannot react that quickly, even if they react immediately.

If really a warrior is needed at all, any henchman warrior does probably better than the other henchmen options. So you better pick something else, and take a REAL human warrior which will outperform the AI, which cannot use IAS stances e.g. too well. They do well with Distracting Blow, on the other hand.

Oh sorry, just had to waste some minutes while waiting for eBay... became almost a novel.

Racthoh · Mar 11, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As an offensive skill, WoD seems to add very little over something like broadhead arrow or great dwarf weapon.

BHA is good, instant daze means your target is done. I would say that BHA is one of the strongest non-PvE only skills available in a PvE setting as it turns any priority target into an easy kill. However, what do you do with the other 7 skills on a ranger bar? Bow DPS?

WoD is a quarter cast one energy dazed in my eyes and it lasts just as long as I would need it to.

Quote:

As a defensive skill, it seems to have some nice utility in an "oh shit, melee in the backline" situation, but it's short duration and lack of AoE mean that it can't really replace any of the defensive skills your party was taking before.

Right, you already have Enfeebling Blood. WoD on a physical isn't the best use for the skill when you already have a weakness source on your bar.

Quote:

1. Despite the radically changed description, SoD is still very much the same skill it was before -- an interrupt (now quasi-interrupt) with some residual shutdown. The only differences are that it now works on casters, shuts down harder, and shuts down shorter.

Physicals are never the threat in a PvE mob. A wise group would bring the right skills to cripple the enemies offense while you deal with the casters, the targets who pose any sort of threat to victory. In the previous form Enfeebling Blood was doing a much better job of shutting down a mob than WoD could ever hope for.

Quote:

2. I find it very odd that everyone seems to agree that mesmers are crap in PvE because shutdown is crap in PvE, and yet when necros get one halfway decent shutdown skill, suddenly it's the best thing that ever happened to PvE.

Mesmers are considered bad because they don't have AoE, this is the same reason why paragons are considered crap.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 11, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Sorry, but if Spiteful Spirit was being that effective, than your Ursans were doing it wrong. SS shouldn't be killing anything that should be constantly knocked down.

Lol, we did a full run in under 1 hour and 50 min. Your right though, it was probably barbs and mark of pain that did most of the damage because of the reasons you stated.

The Meth · Mar 11, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

When do you actually need WoD in PvE? The only use I can see in complete target shutdown is vs bosses, but guess what? Almost all of the bosses worth using it against have half hex duration. I'm just not seeing it's usefulness. Maybe when every mob has GvG-quality builds and team composition, but surely not the mindless leeroy drones we face now. Yay, I disabled random wannabe healer that wouldn't have gotten a single spell off if we had just bashed its face in the first place.

arcanemacabre · Mar 12, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Mesmers are considered bad because they don't have AoE, this is the same reason why paragons are considered crap.

No, Mesmers are considered crap in PvE because their single-target shutdown uses their entire skillbar and most of their energy. WoD is amazing because it's one single skill that does the same, and the only thing it's replacing is SS. With that Necro, you still have the ability to make enemy frontlines useless, place an insane amount of damage on priority targets, and shutdown that single target - with plenty of energy to do it all and not bat an eye.

Carinae · Mar 12, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Necrosis
Finish Him!
Wail of Doom
Arcane Echo
Barbs
Weaken Armor
Great Dwarf Weapon
Rez or whatever

14 Curses
13 SR

That's what I've been running lately. Buffer/Debuffer. Obviously, you want tons and tons of physicals with this. Call WoD, so they know where to converge, cause it doesn't last very long. Keep GDW on as many physicals as possible. Throw WA on mobs, not individuals, generally. Throw Barbs ONLY on hefty targets. Otherwise they die before it gets on them. Barbs is the weakest skill on the bar, besides rez.

Use Necrosis and Finish Him to pick people off. I can't tell you how many people I have finished with these two.

I LOVE THIS BUILD.

Ensign · Mar 12, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Also, your and my original comments were made before the new WoD came on the scene.

Yep, I ran Spiteful Spirit before WoD. It was the worst skill on my bar, but there are no other elites even remotely worth taking, and it's not so bad that I'm going to run an elite-less bar. It was used to speed up mop-up duty and divert heals against persistent mobs.

Now I have Wail of Doom, so there's no point in bringing Spiteful unless I really really want to tri-spec for some reason. If Wail of Doom was reverted I would probably drop Spiteful Spirit for Broad Head Arrow. With the energy buff to Enfeebling Blood I don't feel that I get much mileage out of Glyph of Lesser Energy anymore, and with a free secondary I might as well spec into a crazy good elite.

Actually, now that I think about it, I might do that anyway.

Barbs, Enfeebling Blood, Rip/Rend Enchantment, "Finish Him!", "You Move Like a Dwarf!", Necrosis, Broad Head Arrow, Weaken Armor/Blood Ritual/Foul Feast/Mark of Pain/Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

What I'm not getting is how it's going to do anything whatsoever about the monsters' huge AL and life totals.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/science/981b/

All you'll ever need to deal with those huge HP and AL totals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As an offensive skill, WoD seems to add very little over something like broadhead arrow or great dwarf weapon.

What does Spiteful Spirit do in a build that contains a Broad Head Arrow or Great Dwarf Weapon? Hell, how much does it do in a build that brings a Meteor Shower, or any shutdown at all?

It does slow damage to low priority targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As a defensive skill

It has only slightly more value as a defensive skill than Spiteful Spirit has on a priority target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm still very "meh" on it.

Don't get the wrong impression, Wail of Doom is not a powerhouse PvE skill. It is however an elite that actually does something on a good team, which cannot be said for any other elite the Necromancer has to offer.

With a free secondary, grabbing Broad Head Arrow is much more attractive than it should be. Hell, dig through secondaries for anything that strikes your fancy, you don't need a secondary anymore and you can free up attribute points easily enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. I find it very odd that everyone seems to agree that mesmers are crap in PvE because shutdown is crap in PvE

What Mesmer skills would you use to shut down monsters in PvE?

Serious question.

Mesmers have three main categories of shutdown:

1) Attrition magnification. Think Diversion and edenial. Very little immediate impact, but one that becomes significant over time. Completely unsuitable for PvE.

2) Deterrence and Punishment - Backfire, Empathy, Mistrust, Ineptitude - disruptive pseudo-shutdown against players, glorified DOTs against mobs.

3) Precision tools. Interrupts, enchantment removal, and the like. Extremely timing and target dependent, but more importantly, not exclusive. Anyone can bring an interrupt. Anyone can bring enchantment removal.

On the time frames that you want to shut down a mob, Mesmers don't do anything. At best you interrupt a couple spells (with super fast casting in Hard Mode!) and Shatter a prot. A lot of the time you don't do anything. Everything that works on a short time frame is reactive when you want to be proactive.

The only Mesmer skill I've really come to like in PvE is Frustration, as a decent combination of shutdown and damage...ok, I really just like how well it combos with Broad Head Arrow. Seriously, Mesmers don't shut down anything. If they actually did I'd use them in PvE all the time, but as is, Enfeebling Blood + Broad Head Arrow provides more shutdown than anything a Mesmer could do.

Longasc · Mar 12, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

When do you actually need WoD in PvE? The only use I can see in complete target shutdown is vs bosses, but guess what? Almost all of the bosses worth using it against have half hex duration.

Yup, that is the problem. 2 seconds does not kick that much. Even in a mob with multiple strong healers, disabling one does not do as much good as just spreading SS on nearby mobs, they will kill their own team, everyone taking ~37 damage constantly is going to overtax the healers sooner or later. BHA can have an even better effect when it comes to screwing up a caster.

p.s., regarding Mesmers: Wandering Eye and Clumsiness deal AoE damage now, two spells with 97 AoE and decent recharge. Cry of Pain and the Kurzick/Luxon Skill might turn you into something that is not a typical Mesmer, but it sounds good. They still do not have Soul Reaping, but maybe people should give them a chance.