Curse

moush · Feb 21, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what's the deal with Mesmer elites. Many of them are sound concepts, but they just aren't effective enough in what they do.

Many of the Illusion elites are worthless, the interrupt elites are horrible (Power Leech and Flux not PD/ PBlock), and most are outdone by non-elite versions. Power Leak punks power leech and power flux in energy denial, E-surge beats it, and does dmg too. Skills like Shared Burden and Crippling Anguish aren't that useful. Inspiration has pretty horrible elites, considering most of them are E-management which can be beat by p-drain.

I'm not mad about anything, since overall the Mesmer is still one of the better professions for pvp. It seems like they put a lot of thought into this profession as a whole since it's pretty unique, yet they don't meet their potential.

Kattar · Feb 21, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Most professions have some crappy elites. Mesmers as a whole are ignored, except for what gets used in PvP, so the skills that aren't used all the time ([skill]Shatter Storm[/skill] comes to mind, I mean wtf?) don't get thought about, and, therefore, nothing gets done about their uselessness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moush

yet they don't meet their potential.

I find that to be true as well. Seems like a lot of people do that in PvP - get stuck using one build and never change tactics til they get hit with the nerf bat. I won't go into how people play mes in PvE. Lol.

Shuuda · Feb 21, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

What's the deal with most Warrior elites?
What's the deal with most Monk elites?
What's the deal with most Assassin elites?
What's the deal with most Dervish elites?
What's the deal with most Paragon elites?
What's the deal with most Ranger elites?
What's the deal with most Necromancer elites?
What's the deal with most Ritualist elites?
What's the deal with most Elementalist elites?

See where I'm going with this? Mesmers have quite a few good elites compared to a lot of other proffessions.

Pick Me · Feb 21, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Isn't E-surge an elite?

Depending on your bar, some if not many of the elites are quite useful.

E-denial in PvE has never really been useful, so don't think that using skills for that in PvE will help.

Many unused elites for any class are really for one specific purpose, otherwise they are utterly useless. Shared Burden as you have mentioned can be useful in slowing a mob down while you run away.

As Shuuda pointed out, each profession suffers from what you have mentioned, some skills are out shined by non-elites, but they still have a place.

Skycluster · Feb 21, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I think some of these skills are capable of being better. They just need to be buffed a bit. I think it might be more useful if share burden added -1 to maybe -2 degen? But that would make crippling anguish look awful. So maybe buff crippling anguish to -3 to -6 degen? I personally love skills with multiple options. Shared burden is awful compared to deep freeze.

The power leech and power flux, if they add another effect I would defenetely use them. If they were 5 energy would you use em? I always carry power spike because of its lower cost. I love power leech but what if it damaged the person for every energy drained for like or even healed the mesmer for every energy drained. I really have no idea how to power flux would be buff >.>.

moush · Feb 21, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

See where I'm going with this? Mesmers have quite a few good elites compared to a lot of other proffessions.

Yes, every class has shitty elites, but this is the mesmer hangout. Many skills are horrible concepts and would never be useful, but many mesmer skills just a tad boost in their stats (energy drained, degen amount etc.) and they would be perfectly viable. It's just that certain elites get made Meta, and no one tries anything else until it's nerfed. Buffs should come instead of nerfs. Probably too late for ideals though.

Div · Feb 22, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Most professions have some crappy elites. Mesmers as a whole are ignored, except for what gets used in PvP, so the skills that aren't used all the time ([skill]Shatter Storm[/skill] comes to mind, I mean wtf?) don't get thought about, and, therefore, nothing gets done about their uselessness.

Mesmer elites aren't very powerful in PvE because of the way the game has become: large, big hitting mobs with near infinite energy.

P.S. Shatterstorm is an awesome skill. It's probably the single most powerful enchant strip for spike builds.

Darkside · Feb 22, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

All the classes have some bad elites... get used to it.

blue.rellik · Feb 22, 2008, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Be thankful you're not a ritualist, you have a couple awesome elites and the rest are either 'aight' or 'crap'

horseradish · Feb 22, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skycluster

Shared burden is awful compared to deep freeze.

Shared Burden is godly in AB with Mantra of Persistence.

On-Topic: Mesmers have some good elites. Most are pretty much useless in PvE though

Lishy · Feb 22, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

What's the deal with most Necromancer elites?

Blood is power,Spiteful Spirit,Jagged Bones,Flesh Golem,Offering of blood,Reaper's Mark,Virulence,Grenth's Balance....

Whats the deal you ask?They pack good utility

Shuuda · Feb 22, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Blood is power,Spiteful Spirit,Jagged Bones,Flesh Golem,Offering of blood,Reaper's Mark,Virulence,Grenth's Balance....

Whats the deal you ask?They pack good utility

Jagged Bones = nerfed into lameness.
Flesh Golem = meh
Grenth's Balance = meh.

You could have atleast put:

Corrupt enchantment.
Aura of the Lich

draxynnic · Feb 22, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Okay, I'll play (Note that this is largely subjective, although I have included the options I know to be popular even if I don't use them myself):

Warrior: Eviscerate, Triple Chop, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Barrage, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Martyr
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Unsteady Ground, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Temple Strike, Assassin's Promise, Shadow Prison (PvP), Shadow Form, Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Quickening, Attuned Was Songkai, Ritual Lord
Paragon: Anthem of Fury, Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration, Cautery Signet
Dervish: Ebon Dust Aura, Avatar of Dwayna, Avatar of Lyssa, Avatar of Melandru

Interestingly, the Mesmer actually comes out with the bigger list. But that's actually something of a bad thing - while other classes mostly have a few good elites that they rely on most of the time to go with the mediocre ones, the Mesmer doesn't really have that.

I think the difference is that most of the other professions have elites that you can build an entire build off. Most of those elites, you can announce yourself as a {elite skill here} {profession here}, and people will know what you are. And with many of the exceptions, the elites are backing up some other skill, so you just need to announce what the other skill you're using is.

Mesmers... don't really have that. Echo and Signet of Illusions do at first glance, but are most commonly used with non-Mesmer skills. Fevered Dreams... is mostly relying on another profession to deliver worthwhile hexes in a timely manner, although there is the Phantom Pain/Shatter (or Drain) Delusions combo. Energy denial has reportedly been nerfed into the ground even for PvP, leaving E-Surge as basically a substandard if armour-ignoring nuke. Which leaves Mantra of Recovery - which presumes that you have a skillbar that can actually handle the increased casting rate, and even if you do it's going to be down - and hence encouraging you to stop casting - an estimated 25% of the time.

Since the OP has referenced PvP, the 'independant' skills aren't actually too bad - I'm saying this without much PvP experience at all, but it's a lot harder to say that Broad Head Arrow makes Mesmer interrupts redundant in PvP, and my understanding is that enchantment and hex removal is more important in PvP and thus elites that provide those are that much more valuable. However, when push comes to shove there's no Mesmer elite that I can think of that has as impressive an effect on a build as, say, Dragon Slash does on a Warrior.

Dodo The Extinct · Feb 22, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Look at Ritualists and you'll realize that you should'nt be complaining

horseradish · Feb 22, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct

Look at Ritualists and you'll realize that you should'nt be complaining

lol true.

but rits don't "need" an elite skill as a good amount of their nonelite skills are better than most elites period.

Mesmers don't necessarily need an elite skill either.

draxynnic · Feb 22, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Or maybe supporters of both professions should be.

Although I must say I actually find it easier to find a good elite to serve as the capstone for a Ritualist build than a Mesmer one nowadays.

Just because a problem is shared doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

Shuuda · Feb 22, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Okay, I'll play (Note that this is largely subjective, although I have included the options I know to be popular even if I don't use them myself):

Warrior: Eviscerate, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash, Earth Shaker, Derv Hammer.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Burning Arrow, Crippling Shot, Magebane Shot, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Shield of Defection, Shield of Regeneration, Healers Boon
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance, Corrupt Enchantment
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm, Enchanters Conumdrum.
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Shadow Prison (PvP), Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Remedy.
Paragon: Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Lyssa

You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate.

Clarissa F · Feb 23, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Shuuda, I laughed hard at you ditching Ebon Dust Aura and AoD and replacing them with BALTHAZAR! Lol, I'd even take Grenthie in its new form over Balth.

I think that the regular skills of the mesmer line are actually good enough to make the elites seem watered down. Unlike other classes, the best elites aren't used to build your bar around, but to amplify the effectiveness of other skills.

Shuuda · Feb 23, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Shuuda, I laughed hard at you ditching Ebon Dust Aura and AoD and replacing them with BALTHAZAR! Lol, I'd even take Grenthie in its new form over Balth.

If you have a few GvG matches lately and read the Avatar of Balthazar thread, you will discover that it is more viable that Dwayna or Lyssa in the right builds, the major thing that major Balthazar (and all non melandru Avatars) Bad was the lack of deep wound, now that has been fixed, AoB has it's good uses.

Now tell me, what GOOD GvG has ever used EDA, when you can just use Blinding Surge?

blue.rellik · Feb 24, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Warrior: Eviscerate, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Burning Arrow, Crippling Shot, Magebane Shot, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Shield of Defection, Shield of Regeneration, Healers Boon
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance, Corrupt Enchantment
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm, Enchanters Conumdrum.
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Shadow Prison (PvP), Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Remedy.
Paragon: Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Lyssa

You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate.

Warriors: No love for hammers?
Rangers: If you include AoB because it's used in GvG then you should include Smoke Trap
Monks: Guess so
Necromancer: More or less.
Paragon: No love for the ranged Eviscerate?