Curse

Mr None · Feb 20, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Oh, so you're the one who took a build that was used in HA for over a year and tacked Sab's name onto it, creating a ridiculous reference.

hehe, I have more sins to confess but lets get back to the topic -)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Anyways I don't see why you'd use an axe elite that has a recharge when you can use one that's adrenal and thus subject to group adren buffs? Have I missed something?

Axe attack is 1.33 seconds, with IAS it's roughly 0.8 seconds. You need to land 8 hits (and not miss a single one out of those eight) to charge Eviscerate. This will take you somewhere from 7 to 8 seconds with IAS. So, Eviscerate is +32 bonus damage (at axe mastery = 16) every 7-8 seconds, right? This gives us 4.5 attack skill bonus damage each second.

Triple Chop is 10 secs recharge; if you're hitting only one foe thats 42 bonus damage every 10 seconds, or 4.2 bonus damage each second. Note: you don't lose that bonus damage if you missed an attack or all attacks before triple chop has recharged or if have been denied of adrenaline (soothing images etc)

If you're hitting at least two foes, Triple Chop results in 84 bonus damage every 10th second or 9 bonus damage each second. This already beats Eviscerate

If you're hitting 3 enemies...

Now, we have other attack skills on our bars. Lets see what happens:
Eviscerate takes 1 srtike of adren to execute, and returns 1 if it hits. Net adren return is 0 if it hits and -1 if you miss
Triple Chop takes 0 strikes and returns 1 if it hits a single foe or 2 if it hits two foes. Net adren return is 1 for each foe hit foe and 0 if you miss

So, it's obvious that Triple Chop lets you charge other adren skills faster then Eviscerate

I know that DSlash is simply the best adrenaline gain engine but we are taking about axes here so lets stay with axes while comparing warrior elites

Have I missed something?

Racthoh · Feb 20, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

If you want to do AoE damage as a warrior you bring a ritualist with Splinter Weapon @14 spec. If you're consistantly getting enough enemies around you that Triple Chop or Cyclone Axe or whatever is making big numbers something tells me you're playing tanknspank or solo farming. I don't care how much AoE damage a warrior could do, that isn't why I bring warriors. I bring warriors because mobs sometimes have an enemy that really needs to die, fast, and warriors do a really damn good job of making that happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

Have I missed something?

The +100 damage Deep Wound from Eviscerate. You could argue that the +100 doesn't stack when a second deep wound is applied, but by the time I see warriors charge a second Eviscerate we've moved onto a clean target. And since Eviscerate is an adrenaline attack it benefits from skills like For Great Justice! and Dark Fury, whereas Triple Chop is a static 6 usages a minute.

Mr None · Feb 20, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The +100 damage Deep Wound from Eviscerate.

I have posted the build I use most of all earlier in this thread (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=10) and it had Desmember in it. I was kind of keeping it in mind and didn't mention again, so, I am not mising the Deep Wound, although I do miss a skill slot

Can't argue with the rest of your logic as it's flawless - spike damage - Eviscerate + Executioners, huge AoE - Splinter Weapon

blue.rellik · Feb 20, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

Axe attack is 1.33 seconds, with IAS it's roughly 0.8 seconds. You need to land 8 hits (and not miss a single one out of those eight) to charge Eviscerate. This will take you somewhere from 7 to 8 seconds with IAS. So, Eviscerate is +32 bonus damage (at axe mastery = 16) every 7-8 seconds, right? This gives us 4.5 attack skill bonus damage each second.

[skill]For Great Justice[/skill][skill]Dark Fury[/skill]

I heard that those skills are sometimes used in PvE. Might be a myth though

Quote:

Triple Chop is 10 secs recharge; if you're hitting only one foe thats 42 bonus damage every 10 seconds, or 4.2 bonus damage each second. Note: you don't lose that bonus damage if you missed an attack or all attacks before triple chop has recharged or if have been denied of adrenaline (soothing images etc)

If you're hitting at least two foes, Triple Chop results in 84 bonus damage every 10th second or 9 bonus damage each second. This already beats Eviscerate

If you're hitting 3 enemies...

AoE lol. With your logic, eles > warriors/dervishs/paragons in DPS because they can hit more guys way more consistently.

Don't forget this; Someone at 40% life can fight just as good as someone at 100% life.

Quote:

Now, we have other attack skills on our bars. Lets see what happens:
Eviscerate takes 1 srtike of adren to execute, and returns 1 if it hits. Net adren return is 0 if it hits and -1 if you miss
Triple Chop takes 0 strikes and returns 1 if it hits a single foe or 2 if it hits two foes. Net adren return is 1 for each foe hit foe and 0 if you miss

So, it's obvious that Triple Chop lets you charge other adren skills faster then Eviscerate

You're breaking things far too deeply, you're essentially calling a kitten a tiger.
Eviscerate is a 8 adrenaline skill, that means that it takes a good while to charge up. By the time it's charged up, most of your bar should be charged up as well. Blocking is very rare in PvE, there are some notable situations (kournan bowman, jade bow to name a few) where blocking may become troublesome but very few areas where it requires to bring counters. Even if you do miss then you just need to hit again (which is easy enough) to get Eviscerate ready.

Triple Chop on the other hand must hit at least 3 enemies or more for it to be worth taking the elite slot, if it hits any less then all you did was use a elite [skill]Power Attack[/skill] on one/two guys and now need to wait later before power attacking them again. Now you've got some adrenaline, what are you going to do? Keep building it up to dismember/execute someone? If you do then you're still trying to kill one single target quicker than the rest albeit slower than a Eviscerator would. Pump out Whirlwind/Cyclone? Sure that works and keeps in theme with the aoe axe warrior but you're forgetting one thing, you now have three skills that are completely trash if you're not hitting 3+ people.

For that reason, I am labeling 3Chop unreliable for typical PvE. Yes it can deal out completely amazing DPS onto a mob but it can also be crappy Power Attacks if you're hitting lots of targets and you would be lying if you can reliably gather mobs up into bunches all the time (especially HM) and for that reason, 3Chop really isn't that great.

odly · Feb 20, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

AoE lol. With your logic, eles > warriors/dervishs/paragons in DPS because they can hit more guys way more consistently.

Maybe they do ? I wonder what has all the warriors so convinced they are the supreme source of damage these days ?

I hated tanks and I agree if you have to take a warrior he'd better be dealing damage. But that doesn't mean you suddenly outperform all other proffessions.

*Waits for the flaming to start.*
*Waits for the unfounded posts about "Everyone knows warriors deal the highest single target DPS".*

What DPS do you achieve at master of damage (which is after all the best possible circumstances for a warrior) with your regular PvE builds ? No screenshots necessarry, I'll believe you on your word. I'm just curious.

I'm guessing DS is the highest DPS build for warriors ? What does that result in ? I'd test it myself, but I'm out of character slots. And as you might have guessed I don't have a warrior myself.

Mr None · Feb 20, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

AoE lol. With your logic, eles > warriors/dervishs/paragons in DPS because they can hit more guys way more consistently.

If what I said brought you to that conclusion then may be there is something wrong with your personal logic

Rest of your arguments actually make a good point

Racthoh · Feb 20, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

I was kind of keeping it in mind and didn't mention again, so, I am not mising the Deep Wound, although I do miss a skill slot

Bar compression is definately not something that should be overlooked. When Crippling Slash was given the simple addition of causing Bleeding (oh noes, 6 DPS a second!) it became too powerful requiring a change to 5 adrenaline, then later to 6. Allowing sword warriors to lose the need for Sever Artery to get their deep wound was a very powerful change.

Dismember at 5 adrenaline is okay for PvE purposes. It could be 1 adrenaline for all I care in PvE and it would still function the same way. Unless you have the means to kill a single target fast enough it really doesn't matter how quickly you could apply multiple deep wounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Maybe they do ? I wonder what has all the warriors so convinced they are the supreme source of damage these days ?

AoE damage is stronger if you're setting up your AoE to hit every single enemy in the mob. There was a chart somewhere where someone did the math and the old version of Splinter Weapon with Barrage was capable of several thousand points of damage. It is by no means practical as the mob size required for such a high damage output is scarce.

AoE damage is really good if you're spending the time to maximize its potential; tanknspank. Warrior damage is consistant and the only thing stopping you is not having the foresight to bring adequate hex, condition, and enchantment removal to make it so.

LightningHell · Feb 20, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Maybe they do ? I wonder what has all the warriors so convinced they are the supreme source of damage these days ?

I hated tanks and I agree if you have to take a warrior he'd better be dealing damage. But that doesn't mean you suddenly outperform all other proffessions.

*Waits for the flaming to start.*
*Waits for the unfounded posts about "Everyone knows warriors deal the highest single target DPS".*

What DPS do you achieve at master of damage (which is after all the best possible circumstances for a warrior) with your regular PvE builds ? No screenshots necessarry, I'll believe you on your word. I'm just curious.

I'm guessing DS is the highest DPS build for warriors ? What does that result in ? I'd test it myself, but I'm out of character slots. And as you might have guessed I don't have a warrior myself.

Being in school, I can't do DPS numbers.

But the core of the Warrior being a better damage dealer than most comes from the Warrior being able to deal damage without expending resources, being able to perform damage roles all the while providing disruption (and defensive utility in PvE). +Damage from skills being armor-ignoring also helps.

Keekles · Feb 21, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Maybe they do ? I wonder what has all the warriors so convinced they are the supreme source of damage these days ?

I hated tanks and I agree if you have to take a warrior he'd better be dealing damage. But that doesn't mean you suddenly outperform all other proffessions.

*Waits for the flaming to start.*
*Waits for the unfounded posts about "Everyone knows warriors deal the highest single target DPS".*

What DPS do you achieve at master of damage (which is after all the best possible circumstances for a warrior) with your regular PvE builds ? No screenshots necessarry, I'll believe you on your word. I'm just curious.

I'm guessing DS is the highest DPS build for warriors ? What does that result in ? I'd test it myself, but I'm out of character slots. And as you might have guessed I don't have a warrior myself.

I just tested with 13 str, 14 sword: vamp 15^50 customized sword with frenzy ~85 dps (using only FGJ and D-slash, no adren building included (had a hero hit me with motivational speech until I was maxed before using enduring harmony + FGJ)

But I do think warriors have the highest c-space dps as well. (Though dervs might be higher with the scythe, not sure).

Cathode_Reborn · Feb 21, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

I think it'd be pretty funny to Echo Whirlwind Attack. Bring "FGJ", put Enduring harmony on a para hero, and yeah....much more spammage than T-Chop. The interesting part is that you could Echo some other random skill on your bar if you're not interested in doing AoE.

It's actually been ages since I've used an axe in pve, but I really don't think I'd wanna use T-Chop

If I did want lots of aoe damage, I'd probably use a sword anyways with a D-slash bar. Charging Whirlwind in 1 hit is goodness. Who needs cyclone or triple chop when you can do that? Don't forget how well D-slash fuels "SY" without having to rely on bunched up mobs. Of course with all that, you'd then wonder, "Why use an axe at all in pve?". I guess you can say Eviscerate is always fun

With adren boosters though ("FGJ", Dark Fury, Infuriathing Heat, etc), Decapitate can be pretty deadly.

Crom The Pale · Feb 21, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Variety is the spice of life!

Must be really boring to only have one possible build to play on your war....

odly · Feb 21, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

I just tested with 13 str, 14 sword: vamp 15^50 customized sword with frenzy ~85 dps (using only FGJ and D-slash, no adren building included (had a hero hit me with motivational speech until I was maxed before using enduring harmony + FGJ)

Since you're taking a hero that's 42.5 DPS/character. Not at all impressive !
*Just kidding.* Thanks for testing this for me.

Keekles · Feb 21, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Since you're taking a hero that's 42.5 DPS/character. Not at all impressive !
*Just kidding.* Thanks for testing this for me.

Hero was completely unarmed, and was there only because I'm too lazy to get enduring harmony on my pve warrior :P

EDIT: Hero's skill list: [skill]motivational speech[/skill][skill]enduring harmony[/skill]

Zeff Nut · Feb 21, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

This is an interesting thread for me as my main char is a warrior, I'm a w/e. I have messed around with my build quite a bit, tried hammers, swords and axes. For quite a while now I have settled on using only an axe (longbow for pulling) maybe because I like the look of the axes or because I seem to have the most fun with them. Anyway, I went into it with the idea of being able to survive any initial spikes of damage from enemies then being able to deal lots of damage/put conditions on enemies to make them easier to kill. This is what I have come up with and have been using for a while, seems to work pretty good for me:

1) Triple Chop (Each hit +32dmg)
2) Dismember (Deep wound, lower health 20% for 16 secs)
3) Disrupting chop (Interupt and disable skill for 20 secs)
4) Body Blow (+38 damage, cracked armor= Deep wound for 14 secs)
5)Executioner's Strike (+32 dmg)
6) Griffon's Sweep (+19dmg, if blocked target knocked down and 32dmg)
7) Armor of Earth (30 secs +48 armor 26% slower movement)
8) Endure Pain (17 secs +286 health, which puts me at 816 max health)

Crom The Pale · Feb 22, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

While I really understand the thinking behind Armor of Earth and Endure pain they really are bad skills on a warrior.

The movement decrease can be brutal on a melee char, your much better off slowing down your fow with someting like[skill]Grasping Earth[/skill], if they can't escape from you they can't hurt any of your soft party members.

Endure Pain is basically a suicide pill without a self heal. Your already relying on your monk to heal you before it expires why not trust them a little more and take an IAS to speed up your killing.

blue.rellik · Feb 22, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeff Nut

This is an interesting thread for me as my main char is a warrior, I'm a w/e. I have messed around with my build quite a bit, tried hammers, swords and axes. For quite a while now I have settled on using only an axe (longbow for pulling) maybe because I like the look of the axes or because I seem to have the most fun with them. Anyway, I went into it with the idea of being able to survive any initial spikes of damage from enemies then being able to deal lots of damage/put conditions on enemies to make them easier to kill. This is what I have come up with and have been using for a while, seems to work pretty good for me:

1) Triple Chop (Each hit +32dmg)
2) Dismember (Deep wound, lower health 20% for 16 secs)
3) Disrupting chop (Interupt and disable skill for 20 secs)
4) Body Blow (+38 damage, cracked armor= Deep wound for 14 secs)
5)Executioner's Strike (+32 dmg)
6) Griffon's Sweep (+19dmg, if blocked target knocked down and 32dmg)
7) Armor of Earth (30 secs +48 armor 26% slower movement)
8) Endure Pain (17 secs +286 health, which puts me at 816 max health)

Replace the last three skills with 'Save Yourselves!', Flail and whatever you want, preferably none of the skills you already have in the bottom three

Zeff Nut · Feb 22, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Replace the last three skills with 'Save Yourselves!', Flail and whatever you want, preferably none of the skills you already have in the bottom three

OK, first I just want to say that by no means at all do I think I have the best build out there, however, for arguments sake, why would I put Flail on my bar? Crom said slowing movement can/is detrimental to a melee char, so by adding Flail I am slowing myself by 33% whereas Armor of Earth only slows me by 26%, would it not make sense if I am going to slow down, slow the least amt possible? As for Save Yourselves, that is great maybe if you have a high faction rank, have to be level 11 to even get it to last 6 secs, whereas Armor of Earth lasts 30 seconds with no rank requirements even though it adds 1/2 the armor(in my case, depending on att points) the endure pain makes up the diff (by giving me a large health boost). Also Crom said I should maybe trust the monks a little more and take an IAS skill but in my limited experience, I don't always end up with the best monks, it is nice to have that little burst of health, has pulled me through more than 1 close death. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, only my experience. And lastly, Griffon's sweep, maybe not a real popular skill but I have been in several situations where I swing and swing and swing, and block, block, block... can usually hit them with that, knock them down and have my way with them.

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 22, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeff Nut

OK, first I just want to say that by no means at all do I think I have the best build out there, however, for arguments sake, why would I put Flail on my bar? Crom said slowing movement can/is detrimental to a melee char, so by adding Flail I am slowing myself by 33% whereas Armor of Earth only slows me by 26%, would it not make sense if I am going to slow down, slow the least amt possible?

Flail > Armor of Earth because Warrior's don't need armor buffs, they need to kill stuff. A 33% increase in attack speed is equivalent to 50% more base damage amd 50% more adrenaline, which can then be used to fuel attack skills.

Quote:

As for Save Yourselves, that is great maybe if you have a high faction rank, have to be level 11 to even get it to last 6 secs, whereas Armor of Earth lasts 30 seconds with no rank requirements even though it adds 1/2 the armor(in my case, depending on att points)

"For Great Justice!" reduces the amount of hits you need to make to 4, and if you use skills with +adr on hit, like Dragon Slash, you can keep it up all the time with only R1 Lux/Kurz. As previously mentioned, Armor is Earth is pointless because you don't need the armor boost, whereas squishies do. +100AL on 7 other party members > +x (don't know the number) on yourself.

Quote:

the endure pain makes up the diff (by giving me a large health boost). Also Crom said I should maybe trust the monks a little more and take an IAS skill but in my limited experience, I don't always end up with the best monks, it is nice to have that little burst of health, has pulled me through more than 1 close death.

If you want to get your health up, heal yourself, don't fuss around with upping your max health because your health is gonna drop sometime. This is gonna confuse human healers, because they don't know that Endure is ending.

Btw, IAS isn't optional. If you don't have an IAS, you're doing nowhere near what you could be.

Quote:

And lastly, Griffon's sweep, maybe not a real popular skill but I have been in several situations where I swing and swing and swing, and block, block, block... can usually hit them with that, knock them down and have my way with them.

If blocking is a problem, swap targets. Almost nothing blocks to an annoying extent (Jade Bows and Kournan Bowmen come to mind), so it's not a problem to let the casters take them out. Even if blocking was a major problem, just take a Derv with Wild Blow or something.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 22, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeff Nut

stuff

I can understand how you're thinking, but first, you need to understand how truly powerful Flail and "Save Yourselves!" are.

First, Flail - a 33% increase attack speed which charges swiftly, for a puny 4 adrenaline, yet slows movement rate. Honestly, for PvE - the drawback is negligible. when foes have settled, they generally stop moving and they don't kite often, or well - they suck at movement in general so moving slower isn't gonna affect you much for general PvE. Essentially, Flail has no downside.

Now, for the good stuff. An attack speed enhancer ('IAS' - increased attack speed) - is really, really, really strong. In fact, I'd say that it's hard to find a skill that can increase a warrior's overall damage output more than Flail/Frenzy. An IAS decreases the time between attacks by 33% - there's some silly maths, bunch of numbers and shit, but basically, it adds up to this - while under the effects of an IAS, you attack 50% more. You deal 50% more damage in a given timeframe, and gain 50% more adrenaline overall.
And 50% is huge; there's not one skill that can add that much damage - take an IAS, for PvE Flail is godmode.

Now for "Save Yourselves!". It lasts a puny amount of time, aye. But the actual effect of it is insane.
While up, it gives all party members (importantly, not yourself - more on this in a second) a whole 100 extra armour. Under GuildWars maths, that means they take... ~85% less damage. A Deep Freeze from a nasty Ele boss that'd wipe your backline with 300 damage? Under "SY!", that huge nuke gets turned into a patlry 45 damage. Essentially, "SY!" makes your party nigh-on invincible for a few seconds - a very strong ability, one of the most powerful skills a warrior can bring to the table in PvE. Even at only 3 seconds, it's more than worth a skill slot.

Now, I also highlighted that it doesn't affect you - theoretically, you can abuse the AI here - enemies often target people with the lowest armour; if enemies re-aggro while under "SY!", chances are the squishiest guy is gonna be you, so enemies will fall onto you (certainly, I've noticed my health drop faster when my party is affected by "SY!" rather when they're not). This is an incredibly good thing. The warrior naturally has the armour to take very big hits - no further defensive buffs required - and also, it makes it easier on the team's monks, having one guy taking a beating (and the rest of the partry nigh-on invincible).

The downside of "SY!" is that huge adrenaline cost. However, in reality, 8 adrenaline will come up fairly quickly - wailing on something for 7-8 seconds under an IAS will charge 8 strikes, and you'll charge it even faster with multi-hit attacks like Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe, or adrenaline buffs like "For Great Justice!"

Of course it's up to you, but the simple fact is - Flail and "Save Yourselves!" are very strong, and are well worth stapling to your PvE bar because few skills can do as much for you.

Zeff Nut · Feb 22, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Alright, points taken. Thank you for input and not flames. I'll have to throw those on my bar and try them out, what you say makes sense. As I said originally, I have been messing with my build for quite some time. Told myself when I started I didn't just want to copy a build, however it is like ppl have said, what works works and there is a reason why many people use it. Anyway thanks again for the explanations.