Curse

Pyro maniac · Apr 01, 2008, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Nerfing a build I use, but giving me new options and new builds - Fantastic.
Nerfing a build I use, but not buffing any other skills to a usable level - Fail.

The bigger skill updates come always with a huge set of buffs. The effect of it is delayed however. If your key skills in your imba-build get nerfed, you'll notice it immediately. However it takes a while to make new builds around the buffed skills and get it adopted by the community. By the time it gets accepted, most players don't even notice it was a buffed skill from a few weeks ago.
While not always, skill balances also DO care about PvE. The effects are rather adjusted in cast time (far more important in PvP then PvE) than in recharge/energy cost.

This thread however is about PvE skills and that those skills should be as effective (or a bit above) the best skills available at that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Define the goal here. I mean is that completing:
1. an area
2. the whole game
3. random selection of areas
4...?

How about if the party Charges though the area? Taking down just the foes that need to be taken down to reach the minimum requirements to achieve the certain goal?

Completing the objective (thus earning the rewards) in the least amount of time, with the best strategy available. Currently the best strategy is leeroy the foes and button-mash.
While I agree the (whole) game shouldn't be just for the 'elite' players, there should be some reward (saving time) in playing well in stead relying on no-brainer button-mashing. This is only possible if the skill-full builds are better then the brainless skills. This is clearly not the case.

upier · Apr 01, 2008, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

Completing the objective (thus earning the rewards) in the least amount of time, with the best strategy available. Currently the best strategy is leeroy the foes and button-mash.
While I agree the (whole) game shouldn't be just for the 'elite' players, there should be some reward (saving time) in playing well in stead relying on no-brainer button-mashing. This is only possible if the skill-full builds are better then the brainless skills. This is clearly not the case.

But the button mashing has a very distinctive negative side to it. One is limited to just that. Whereas a better player has the chance to try out different strategies.
So if an average player does not find the specific team - that player will most likely be unable to complete a challenge. Whereas a better player does not need to rely on the crutch - but is able to adapt.
This is the reward.
In theory.
The problem is once again PvE. It's not designed well. Otherwise PvE itself would counter the simple button mashing tactic. And the better players would have an edge over those that can rely on button mashing only.
But because the PvE foes are so bad - they need to be super strong to at least pose a threat. Which makes the skills that require skill less effective because those skills are balanced on a PvP set of rules and those rules were broken to achieve the threat. Thus your skill-full build can not be the most efficient in the current PvE.
PvE is just a mash of one thing breaking the other and the best we can currently hope for is that the mess that comes out at the end is fun.
And removing the crutch would mean that this mess is less or not even fun at all for a certain segment of players. And because of the specifics of PvE - I don't see why this would be worth it.

Now a full-on fix would be desired. But we already witnessed what a fix means to A.Net in when we were discussing the mesmers in PvE.
Cry Of Pain.
Simple button-mashing.
We can just hope that they learn their lesson for GW2.

jiggles · Apr 01, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Im all for nerfing ursan, but gaile (cant find quote) has already said anet have NO intentions of doing it.

ill keep hoping though.

edit: can we leave finish him alone and nerf all the other pve only skills?

Warskull · Apr 16, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Let PvE skills remain overpowered. That's why they were implemented in the first place, so we can have slightly overpowered skills to play with, that don't ruin PvP.

This is just plain wrong. PvE skills were implemented to allow for the exploration of different roles and functions that would be impossible to balance properly in a PvP environment. Look at mesmers, they are amazing in PvP due to their shutdown and control. However, they are in much less demand in PvE due to the fact that most monsters aren't worth shutting down and brute force tends to be the most effective method. Thus the idea of PvE skills was to allow classes to expand into roles that would be bad in PvP but strengthen them in PvE. For example, trying to allow mesmers to output better damage in PvE without screwing up PvP (Mesmer spike in PvP was a bad thing.)

A great example of this is brawling headbutt, the skill would be ridiculously, completely, and totally broken in PvP. However in PvE shutting down a monster for 3 seconds is much less powerful (and most of the really big things are shutdown immune) so it is used mainly for locking down a lesser boss and doesn't cause issues.

I guarantee you Ursan form was never intended to be overpowered. It came into the game without full realization of what it could do. Personally, I still hate running any of the forms because the loss of my skill bar hurts me more than the gained health and ursan skills in most situations. You can't explore all the different ways something can be used before you put it in the game. D/Mos weren't intended to be walking nuclear weapons before the Nightfall preview weapon, but some of the skills slipped by and all the pieces got put together during the preview event.

For those of you that don't get what Divine is saying:
PvP requires delicate balance and thrives off of balance. It has to be very carefully balanced. PvE has much more wiggle room with balance, but the balance still has to be there. The problems come when a few skills are so dominate in PvE they make it so other skills may as well not exist.

An extreme example to illustrate:
If a new PvE only skill was introduced into the game called "Win" which instantly destroyed the target with 5e 1/4c, 1r and returned 10 energy after the target died would that be okay? The skill is so clearly overpowered you need no other skill. Don't you think this could cause issues if it was introduced into the game?

PvP balance usually ends up hitting PvE balance as collateral damage. Usually you can just rebalance a few monsters who were too good as a result of a buff or nerf. However, some of the PvE skills are a bit too strong in comparison to the other skills now.

Wild Karrde · Apr 16, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Yeah, we need at least 1-2 THK difficulty missions in every game.

If only anet would revert THK back to how it was prenerf.. I loved THK it was my favorite mission until the nerf made it rediculously easy even in HM. (No I dont use Ursan or PvE skills except for SY when I happen to pug.)

Clarissa F · Apr 25, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

skill > time played in GW. haha, I made a funny.

Did someone necro this? I saw a mention of Gaile.

snaek · Apr 26, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

teh best players r those that r able to adapt to any situation...
truth to teh matter is...
pvp has a million more different situations than pve does...
which is y pvp takes more skill

pve...is more-or-less, teh same everytime
u do uw once,
2nd time, u expect it to be roughly teh same
therefore u can "exploit" this information to ur advantage to win every single time
(note teh every single time part)

u gvg once,
2nd time, u dun kno wut to expect next
so u need to be able to adapt to different tactics, different builds, etc

most "sway scrubs" r called that...
because they dun kno how to adapt to different situations
nor do they kno how to change their tactics
they simply rely on an (overpowered) gimmick and repeat it over and over again
(in pve equivalence...thats ursan)

soooo, basically...
the good players r ones that actually pay attention to wut teh enemy is using
and has knowledge how to defeat it
whether thats pve or pvp...it makes no difference

brute force, without understanding ur enemy is lame...
and thats wut ursan is

RavagerOfDreams · Apr 26, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

this game would get boring if the skills didn't change so i generally have no problem with most nerfs

it's only when they full out slaughter a skill out of use that i don't like the nerf

Yuhe Ji · Apr 26, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

THe thing with the skill updates is that sometimes they will nerf some skills and buff others, but the ones that are buffed tend to be from all professions (like the last one was all mesmer, even if it will be reverted). There were no buffs for any other professions. What if I did not have a mesmer? What if my ritualist was my main? Of course I wouldn't be too happy. They should buff skills from different professions, leaving options open for everyone, not just for people who play a certain profession.

Div · Apr 26, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Keep writing if you want. It only takes me 2 seconds to delete an offtopic flaming post.

Improvavel · Apr 26, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Ursan make you think why the hell they nerfed the sunspear and faction PvE skills.

At least give us variety, if balance is impossible to achieve.

Even "Save yourselves" has a few decent counters to which the party needs to produce answers.

Ursan is just an answer to itself.

And with the addiction of deldrimor weapons, it was just ridiculous to read all those people asking for ursan groups - WHAT THE HELL?!?! That mission was somewhat challenging before heroes and PvE skills, but since then as long as one guy in ur team has a flatbow/longbow u can't fail.

Why did I spent money in character slots? I only need ursan and monk...

BlackSephir · Apr 27, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And with the addiction of deldrimor weapons, it was just ridiculous to read all those people asking for ursan groups - WHAT THE HELL?!?! That mission was somewhat challenging before heroes and PvE skills, but since then as long as one guy in ur team has a flatbow/longbow u can't fail.

Haha, yeah, it was funny. Seeing people stand there with their "r8+" instead of taking 2 monks and rolling through the mission with or without pve skills. Damn, even 1 Dslasher would make this mission too easy, with the whole SY! spam.
I know that at least 100 years ago people used to complete HP without Ursan or even (*gasp*) pve skills.

Mindless sheep don't even think any more, it's either ursan or no game at all.

Syntonic · Apr 30, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Ursan is just a safe and brainless way to complete an area with a pug or even guildies when you don't want to hash out skill bars for the next HM dungeon/area. I mean, who cares if you are in a pug with a mending wammo who would normally only have 9 points in swordsmanship if he also has ursan to back him up? It's why my guild normally goes ursan when we go to clear an area. There doesn't really need to be specific builds or extensive wiki research before we start so set up time is drastically reduced along with the potential completion time. Anyone not from the guild that we -might- pick up won't have to be studied under a microscope for a milligram of competence nor will we have to hash out their bars (potential PvE expert skill fighting averted.) Sure, I realize Ursan is overpowered which equals baed for teh game and completely agree with toning it down; however, I don't think people asking for Ursan's in Hell's Precipice or any other area are simply mindless sheep - I'd rather think they just don't want to put up with BS that are commonly associated with pugs. It's bad enough that you have Leeroy Ursans - without ursan, it'd just be that much uglier (and it was/is.) I suppose this changes the issue to not pugging and just sticking with heroes and hench/guildies and alliance so I'll stop here.