Curse

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Is using macros really that hard?

How can your macros make decisions for you? You can't just press a button and hope everything works fine. There is no point to keep casting Epidemic if the target is not dazed yet and you have to move your ranger in closer to the target to avoid BHA from being dodged. That is why you have to micro-manage alot during the battle.

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Solved by either bringing Epidemic on a hero, or bringing Splinter Weapon on a hero.

If you have to rely on external help then this Ranger vs Mesmer comparison is void since it has become unfair. Sure 2 characters are stronger than 1, and 8 characters are stronger than 2, what does that prove?

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I always use shields on my primary caster sets. Survivor insignias on all pieces of armour, and shields.
You also forgot spreading around poison via Apply Poison is alot cheaper.
And you forgot that Rangers usually only bring [distracting shot] and [savage shot], and the rest of their bar for versatility.

Apply Poison doesn't work with Volley or even Barrage since it is a preparation. [distracting shot] skill disabling doesn't work when your target is dazed, by the way.

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Their damage is mediocre at best, and Mesmers don't deal very nice damage,

If 100 AoE armor ignoring damage every 12s is not considered nice damage, then I dont know what is.

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but very nice shutdown. If I wanted damage I would take something stronger. Warrior anyone?

If you are bringing in 8 vs 8 now, then it is a team build vs team build comparison not a mesmer vs ranger anymore.

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Rangers aren't ment for pure damage anyway...

And by bringing more interrupt skills + daze would reduce their damage even more, compared to mesmers. But I agree with you that, at least for single target and only some situations, multi-target interrupt, a R/Me can be better for the role of interrupter provided the ranger shutdowns are avoided somehow and you have to sacrifice damage.

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

How can your macros make decisions for you? You can't just press a button and hope everything works fine. There is no point to keep casting Epidemic if the target is not dazed yet and you have to move your ranger in closer to the target to avoid BHA from being dodged. That is why you have to micro-manage alot during the battle.

Read the updates. You can use macros on your keyboard to make microing easier.

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If you have to rely on external help then this Ranger vs Mesmer comparison is void since it has become unfair. Sure 2 characters are stronger than 1, and 8 characters are stronger than 2, what does that prove?

Because I don't waste my attributes. I run Splinter Weapon off my Ranger because to me, it's a waste of a skillslot on a martial class when we have heroes.

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Apply Poison doesn't work with Volley or even Barrage since it is a preparation. [distracting shot] skill disabling doesn't work when your target is dazed, by the way.

I know. But it still does it to things that aren't spells. And yeah, tabspace for that effect of Apply Poison instead of using Volley.
Simply put, those skills still interrupt non-spell skills.

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If 100 AoE armor ignoring damage every 12s is not considered nice damage, then I dont know what is.

Put Splinter Weapon on your melee. Pull mobs so they're at adjacent range. *Boom*

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If you are bringing in 8 vs 8 now, then it is a team build vs team build comparison not a mesmer vs ranger anymore.

Read again. "If I wanted damage, I would go create something stronger. Warrior anyone?"...
Warriors are the true damage dealers of this game.

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And by bringing more interrupt skills + daze would reduce their damage even more, compared to mesmers. But I agree with you that, at least for single target and only some situations, multi-target interrupt, a R/Me can be better for the role of interrupter provided the ranger shutdowns are avoided somehow and you have to sacrifice damage.

3 skills, and you can still use a decent investment in Marksmanship. 4 skills including Epidemic, but you have 3 skills left. Use skills like Sloth Hunter's Shot, Volley ect...

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Read the updates. You can use macros on your keyboard to make microing easier.

You cant use it to make a if-then decision based on target daze status unless you are runing a hacked program which would be using bannable cheat.

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Because I don't waste my attributes. I run Splinter Weapon off my Ranger because to me, it's a waste of a skillslot on a martial class when we have heroes.

Then you have to rely on external help and your ranger cannot cast epidemic, as far as discussion is concerned. (i.e. your Ranger can't be a R/Rt/Me all at the same time). Instead of trying to go 2 vs 1 in your comparison against a mesmer, why cant you compare in a fair way instead?

If you feel that you need to over-extend your character and go 2 vs 1 to beat someone then you have already lost.

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I know. But it still does it to things that aren't spells. And yeah, tabspace for that effect of Apply Poison instead of using Volley.
Simply put, those skills still interrupt non-spell skills.

And your Poison skills would only affect 1 target at a time, great.

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Put Splinter Weapon on your melee. Pull mobs so they're at adjacent range. *Boom*

Then you are not using Epidemic for AoE daze anymore if you are packing Splinter Weapon on your ranger, unless you pull in another character which a mesmer can then do the same to expand her own bar too.

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Read again. "If I wanted damage, I would go create something stronger. Warrior anyone?"...
Warriors are the true damage dealers of this game.

The point being that, in this ranger vs mesmer only discussion, an interrupt mesmer can STILL pack good damage while your ranger cant.

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You cant use it to make a if-then decision based on target daze status unless you are runing a hacked program which would be using bannable cheat.

What? Last time I checked using these macros makes them use the skill on the same target as you.

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Then you have to rely on external help and your ranger cannot cast epidemic, as far as discussion is concerned. (i.e. your Ranger can't be a R/Rt/Me all at the same time). Instead of trying to go 2 vs 1 in your comparison against a mesmer, why cant you compare in a fair way instead?

Because running Splinter Weapon on a Ranger, is a waste of attributes, when you can run it on a different person for better results.

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If you feel that you need to over-extend your character and go 2 vs 1 to beat someone then you have already lost.

Read above.

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And your Poison skills would only affect 1 target at a time, great.

I said tabspace. Since the poison has a duration, which many conditions do, you can tabspace it through enemies.

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Then you are not using Epidemic for AoE daze anymore if you are packing Splinter Weapon on your ranger, unless you pull in another character which a mesmer can then do the same to expand her own bar too.

Splinter Weapon to me is a waste of attributes on a Ranger. Deja Vu much?

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The point being that, in this ranger vs mesmer only discussion, an interrupt mesmer can STILL pack good damage while your ranger cant.

Did you even read the other bit underneath the final quote?
3 skills left, these skills can be used for more damage.

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

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Originally Posted by Tyla

What? Last time I checked using these macros makes them use the skill on the same target as you.

Ok feel free to keep pressing your macro key as much as possible, without monitoring if BHA is even fired, or without regard if there are adjacent monsters, and keep casting Epidemic with or without daze and waste all your ranger's energy then. That way you dont need to monitor anything and reduce micro-management to a minimum if you insist on calling that a viable solution.

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Because running Splinter Weapon on a Ranger, is a waste of attributes, when you can run it on a different person for better results.

Then be a R/Me and dont use Splinter Weapon. You have to choose between R/Rt and R/Me.

If you have to say that your Ranger + heroes combined is more powerful than 1 solitary mesmer then go ahead, if that means anything.

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I said tabspace. Since the poison has a duration, which many conditions do, you can tabspace it through enemies.

Except poisoning 1 target at a time is not an example of a great damaging skill. Epidemic can help you alittle (if there are adjacent enemies), it would be a strain to your BHA ranger if you cast it too often since expertise does not affect spells. Even if you managed to poison all the monsters in the mob it is still not as impressive as the 100 armor ignoring AoE damage from [Cry of Pain] every 12 seconds.

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Did you even read the other bit underneath the final quote?
3 skills left, these skills can be used for more damage.

And since you mentioned Apply Poison, so you have 2 skills left after BHA,Savage,Distracting,Epidemic,Volley,Apply Poison. Add in a res and you only have 1 skill left. Do you see where I am going with this?

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then be a R/Me and dont use Splinter Weapon. You have to choose between R/Rt and R/Me.

If have to say your Ranger + heroes combined is more powerful than 1 solitary mesmer then go ahead, if that means anything.

This is a team game anyway. You have to keep in mind that you WILL NOT be the only person in your party.

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Except poisoning 1 target at a time is not an example of a great damaging skill.

It's a tactic used in PvP, to cause pressure.

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And since you mentioned Apply Poison, so you have 2 skills left after BHA,Savage,Distracting,Epidemic,Volley,Apply Poison. Add in a res and you only have 1 skill left.

I don't use Apply Poison on bars with Volley or Barrage. I didn't even use Apply Poison in that part of the argument anyway.

And Volley is actually one of those optional slots. It can be used for damage, and disruption on people casting spells in adjacent range with BHA on them.

BHA, Epidemic, Savage, D-Shot, Volley, Optional, Optional, Res Sig.

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

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Originally Posted by Tyla

This is a team game anyway. You have to keep in mind that you WILL NOT be the only person in your party.

If you have to weigh in the rest of the team in your discussion then wouldn't this become team 1 vs team 2 comparison then instead of Ranger vs Mesmer? Or Mesmer vs Ritualist?

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It's a tactic used in PvP, to cause pressure.

Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

In PvE, poisoning 1 target at a time just doesn't even come close to [Cry of Pain].

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I don't use Apply Poison on bars with Volley or Barrage. I didn't even use Apply Poison in that part of the argument anyway.

Then why did you keep mentioning it?

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And Volley is actually one of those optional slots. It can be used for damage, and disruption on people casting spells in adjacent range with BHA on them.

BHA, Epidemic, Savage, D-Shot, Volley, Optional, Optional, Res Sig.

So, you have only 2 skills left to makeup for her lack of real damage. A mesmer's [Cry of Pain] fits into her build nicely even with other interrupts.

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you have to weigh in the rest of the team in your discussion then wouldn't this become team 1 vs team 2 comparison then instead of Ranger vs Mesmer? Or Mesmer vs Ritualist?

A vary of professions makes a team strong, but in PvE, Mesmers are weaker in shutdown capabilities.
Ritualists offer Splinter Weapon and Ancestors' Rage, which are all in all, very strong skills. Aswell as things such as Protective was Kaolai.

Mesmers are just weaker in PvE because the thing they do best isn't strong enough because things die too fast. You might as well take something that makes things die faster.

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Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

I thought you said you don't use BHA in PvP?

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In PvE, poisoning 1 target at a time just doesn't even come close to [Cry of Pain].

8 DPS on the enemies. Pew enemy targetted via tabspace (You should be using a Poisonous bowstring on this bow you're using anyway), you're dealing 8 DPS per enemy poisoned. 96 damage in total by the time CoP recharges.

Heh, some people don't grind their titles for max and play for fun you see. Some people farm for fun (I know one.

) but some people farm for cash so they can get to playing the game normally. Or maybe KoaBD.

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Then why did you keep mentioning it?

It's the best Ranger preperation there is.

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So, you have only 2 skills left if you bring volley.

Volley is more of a damage skill. Those 2 skills that are there also can be used for more damage. Wait, haven't I said something almost 100% the same as this before?

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Mesmers are just weaker in PvE because the thing they do best isn't strong enough because things die too fast. You might as well take something that makes things die faster.

I dont find that mesmers kill slow in HM at all. Try this build for just one example:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=481

I normally cast [Phantom Pain] first then [Cry of Pain], then [Shatter Delusion]. It is [Shrinking Armor] next, then [Cry of Pain], then [Shatter Delusion] again. At the end of that combo, you have already inflicted 342 armor ignoring damage of which 200 of that is AoE plus deep wound and cracked armor. That is not even counting the damage from degen, [Pain Inverter], and [Energy Burn]. [Assassin's Promise] then recharges all your skills and you are ready to go for the next target.

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I thought you said you don't use BHA in PvP?

I said BHA is useless in PvP since you brought PvP into the subject.

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8 DPS on the enemies. Pew enemy targetted via tabspace (You should be using a Poisonous bowstring on this bow you're using anyway), you're dealing 8 DPS per enemy poisoned. 96 damage in total by the time CoP recharges.

Don't forget to count in the time to shoot each target through.

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Heh, some people don't grind their titles for max and play for fun you see.

That is beside the point. Sunspear is an easy title to max and besides, in a build discussion, you should assume all titles are maxed anyway.

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Volley is more of a damage skill. Those 2 skills that are there also can be used for more damage. Wait, haven't I said something almost 100% the same as this before?

That doesn't matter, the damage still sucks and there are still more shutdowns for a Ranger.

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

snip

Lacks versatility. Your entire bar is devoted to damage.

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I said BHA is useless in PvP since you like to bring PvP into the subject.

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Sure and mesmers can play a different role in PvP like energy/skill denial and mesmer interrupts that are much better in PvP than a ranger's BHA.

Then why are you comparing Mesmer interrupts to BHA in PvP then?

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Don't forget to count in the time to shoot each target through.

So that makes the tactic bad?
You CAN use Savage Shot to speed up the condition spread you know.

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That is beside the point. Sunspear is an easy title to max and besides, in a build discussion, you should assume all titles are maxed anyway.

All titles are easy in PvE. Some people despise grind.

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That doesn't matter, the damage still sucks and there are still many shutdowns for a Ranger.

Yet there are 2 other slots left. And Splinter Weapon on a different person should solve the damage problem (And before you try the "2v1" crap, this is a team game anyway, and this not only synergises with Volley, but on melee it creates a heck of alot of damage.)

And yeah, there are shutdowns for a Ranger, but there are also Monks.

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Then why are you comparing Mesmer interrupts to BHA in PvP then?

Because you were talking about BHA as a great interrupt then you brought in PvP.

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So that makes the tactic bad?

Merely pointing out that you conveniently did not include the time to switch through your targets in your DPS calculation.

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You CAN use Savage Shot to speed up the condition spread you know.

Using Savage Shot to spread poison to all your foes is not energy efficient.

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All titles are easy in PvE. Some people despise grind.

Doesn't matter, all build discussions should assume max titles.

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Yet there are 2 other slots left. And Splinter Weapon on a different person should solve the damage problem (And before you try the "2v1" crap, this is a team game anyway, and this not only synergises with Volley, but on melee it creates a heck of alot of damage.)

And yeah, there are shutdowns for a Ranger, but there are also Monks.

Is this the right time for me to bring out my MM fiends + Barbs from my curse necro to add that to my damage then?

Monk skills do not get rid of most of the shutdowns for you, besides you usually bring Mhenlo anyway.

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Because you were talking about BHA as a great interrupt then you brought in PvP.

BHA is only good in PvE because AI is stupid. I thought people found out the AI was stupid snice...the start of the game?

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Merely pointing out that you conveniently did not include the time to switch through your targets in your DPS calculation.

When the pressure sinks in it hurts.

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Using Savage Shot to spread poison to all your foes is not energy efficient.

Expertise is already beyond strong.

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Is this the right time for me to bring out my MM fiends + Barbs from my curse necro to add that to my damage then?

Monk skills do not get rid of most of the shutdowns for you, besides you usually bring Mhenlo anyway.

Go ahead. That can be really achieved without the Mesmer. And things like Holy Veil and condition removal in general > stacking. Especially since most Rangers these days run Mending Touch on their bars. Well, Mending Touch > condition stacks, and RC. Don't forget you can always D-Shot the ones that REALLY hurt (Faintheartedness, Blinding Surge).

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

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Originally Posted by Tyla

BHA is only good in PvE because AI is stupid. I thought people found out the AI was stupid snice...the start of the game?

Then I dont know why you brought in PvP after mentioning BHA.

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Expertise is already beyond strong.

Not that strong, since I have 2 level 20 rangers myself.

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Go ahead. That can be really achieved without the Mesmer.

Are you saying it is ok for you to include your heroes into the damage but not ok for me to include mine? Are you asking for a handicap?

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And things like Holy Veil and condition removal in general > stacking. Especially since most Rangers these days run Mending Touch on their bars. Well, Mending Touch > condition stacks, and RC. Don't forget you can always D-Shot the ones that REALLY hurt (Faintheartedness, Blinding Surge).

Did you say Mending Touch for your Ranger? Then you are not using Epidemic?

How many secondaries does your ranger need to have at any one time anyway?

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Not that strong, since I have 2 level 20 rangers myself.

I ALWAYS have it at 14. And I never have energy problems.

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Are you saying it is ok for you to include your heroes into the damage but not ok for me to include mine? Are you asking for a handicap?

Nope. There's just no synergy between YOUR Mesmer and YOUR heroes. Which there is between MY Ranger and MY hero.

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Did you say Mending Touch for your Ranger? Then you are not using Epidemic?

How many secondaries does your ranger have at any one time anyway?

Oh? How often do you see a B-Surger in PvE?

DarkSpirit · Apr 12, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I ALWAYS have it at 14. And I never have energy problems.

Even so, spamming savage shot just to spread poison for every foe would reduce your energy so much that you can have problems using BHA when you need to.

Sorry but 14 in expertise doesn't equate to infinite energy.

And blind is just one way of stopping rangers. Why dont you just admit that your ranger damage numbers don't add up to as much without involving your other heroes into it?

Tyla · Apr 12, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Even so, spamming savage shot just to spread poison for every foe would reduce your energy so much that you can have problems using BHA when you need to.

Sorry but 14 in expertise doesn't equate to infinite energy.

And blind is just one way of stopping rangers. Why dont you just admit that your ranger damage numbers don't add up to as much without involving your other heroes into it?

Well I spy no energy problems. Heck, if you're really running into energy problems, whip out a Zealous Bow and spam Volley...

Oh yeah, I usually try to synergise myself with my hero builds.
With my hero, BHA, Splinter, Volley and Epidemic = AoE interrupt, with some nice firepower.
Splinter Weapon can also be used on melee, Paragons or whatever, and still have an extremely strong effect.

With your Mesmer build, you're sacrificing utility. Using so much firepower equals less utility.

And I don't understand why you don't accept that in PvE, Rangers are the better interrupters because with BHA, you give your entire party Warmonger's Weapon (That includes Minions and such), and with Epidemic (Which I favour over Splinter Weapon because more conditions = better), I've screwed up all casters in adjacent range.

I also have the power to do prediction interrupts, which yes has 2 factors (Observation and luck), but is something that favours over Mesmer interrupts.
With Mesmer interrupts, you're only gaining the same as Rangers only Rangers have the following - Lower recharges, and 20s disable (D-Shot), and can interrupt everything, not only spells which is a limitation on the majority of Mesmer interrupts.
And you're only going to be able to reflex interrupt the same things.

Let's keep in mind that it's the player who will be playing the Mesmer if s/he chooses.
Also, let's keep in mind PvE is easy. But you would really want the better results, which from what has been explained, is Ritualist.

DarkSpirit · Apr 13, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Well I spy no energy problems. Heck, if you're really running into energy problems, whip out a Zealous Bow and spam Volley...

Oh yeah, I usually try to synergise myself with my hero builds.
With my hero, BHA, Splinter, Volley and Epidemic = AoE interrupt, with some nice firepower.
Splinter Weapon can also be used on melee, Paragons or whatever, and still have an extremely strong effect.

With your Mesmer build, you're sacrificing utility. Using so much firepower equals less utility.

If you can claim to leave your damage to your heroes, I can also claim that I leave my utility on my heroes.

And I prefer to leave the interrupts to my heroes anyway.

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And I don't understand why you don't accept that in PvE, Rangers are the better interrupters because with BHA, you give your entire party Warmonger's Weapon (That includes Minions and such), and with Epidemic (Which I favour over Splinter Weapon because more conditions = better), I've screwed up all casters in adjacent range.

Why dont you read my posts again because you keep twisting it?

Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter but at huge expense to damage. Mesmers, on the other hand, are more balanced.

Tyla · Apr 13, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you can claim to leave your damage to your heroes, I can also claim that I leave my utility on my heroes.

And I prefer to leave the interrupts to my heroes anyway.

Yet I get utility and damage on my heroes...
And I get the ability to reflex interrupt as the player using the Ranger. (Since the AI is stupid.)

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Why dont you read my posts again because you keep twisting it?

Rangers can be configured to be a better interrupter but at huge expense to damage. Mesmers, on the other hand, are more balanced.

Look, Rangers were never ment for pure damage, as Mesmers were never ment for it either.
If I wanted damage, I would go make a Warrior. Simple as.

Take a look at the common Cripshot bar. It's not ment for damage, but for field control, pressure, splits...

On the other hand, take a look at the common Mesmer bar. More direct shutdown.

The Ranger has his / her own on conditions.
And as I've already stated, BHA acts as a huge Warmonger's Weapon to everything attacking the target. That alone is worth more than playing your Ranger for damage. Heck, if I wanted my Ranger for damage, I can just whip out a 15^50 Vampiric Hornbow and spam Volley. I'd still be achieving more than CoP, and I won't need the hex to do so.

Overall I do more DPS with it.

DarkSpirit · Apr 13, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Yet I get utility and damage on my heroes...

I dont see much utility in yours either, besides interrupts, which heroes do it faster anyway.

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Take a look at the common Cripshot bar. It's not ment for damage, but for field control, pressure, splits...

And cripshot is not useful for PvE. If you are talking about PvP all along why even bring up BHA?

Even changing to a Vampiric bow and Volley would not give you more DPS than CoP. And if I dont think of synergy, I wouldn't bother with cracked armor.

Tyla · Apr 13, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont see much utility in yours either, besides interrupts, which heroes do it faster anyway.

I use the AI's stupidity to my advantage. Easier prediction interrupts, since the AI is so predictable.
And the utility in my skillbar is BHA, D-Shot and Savage Shot. They can all be used offensively and defensively.

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And cripshot is not useful for PvE. If you are talking about PvP all along why even bring up BHA?

Wtf? I was using it as an example. Cripshot, is one of the most versatile skillbars there is. And the reason I used it as an example, is because of it's versatility.

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Even changing to a Vampiric bow and Volley would not give you more DPS than CoP. And if I dont think of synergy, I wouldn't bother with cracked armor.

All in all, it would. You wouldn't need the hex to do it either. Besides, if we removed PvE skills from this, this would be useless.