Curse

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is not a matter of Easy or Hard. It is a matter of getting into a PUG or getting kicked to make way for a nuker.

And in PvE, it is not just a matter of you completing the mission. It is you, completing the mission in the shortest time. Would a good PUG complete the mission with a mesmer, probably yes. But if replacing the mesmer with a nuker or a necro is more efficient and enables the group to complete it in a shorter amount of time, with fewer deaths, then the mesmer gets kicked.

Because of the reason above, and mesmers are already underpowered in PvE relative to the other classes, I would say ahead with SoI + PvE skills for mesmers if it makes you complete the missions faster. It is just dumb to gimp yourself further by not using PvE skills when the other PvE stronger classes are already using them. It is up to you.

A few things:

- PuG is just another term for "Bad players you don't know yet" Play with H/H or guildies, or trusted people if it's THAT important to you.

- Meh, PuGs tend rushing things... another reason they suck.

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It is up to you

I decided to try and learn the profession. And since the only way to do that is PvP, and since in PvP there are no retarded PvE skills, I simply don't use them, even in PvE.

Lishy · Mar 18, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I find it HILARIOUS how people insist that mesmer sucks.
Well, for one, I thinkt hey do NOT suck.

Want -8 degen on enemy mob with a lot of energy management,interrupting,
and melee enemy's "spontaneously" blowing up?gogogo!

Want to interrupt the enemy?gogogo!

Want to deal armor ignoring damage?gogogo!

Want a super runner making use of a continuous use of dash as well as other overpowered running skills?gogogo!

Want to pressure with hexes?gogogo!

Want to solo farm?gogogo!

Want to farm bosses?gogogo!

However, it is all a matter of taste to what profession is better.

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

A few things:

- PuG is just another term for "Bad players you don't know yet" Play with H/H or guildies, or trusted people if it's THAT important to you.

- Meh, PuGs tend rushing things... another reason they suck.

That doesn't matter. We know they suck, but still you want to be the HERO of the group and being a squishy with poor insignia choices offered by the game doesn't help.

You want to be the one that is shown to be important to the team. You want people to say, if you want this mission to succeed, better get a mesmer for your team (which is almost unheard of nowadays).

In other words, you dont want to be the one that usually gets kicked. Anyway my guild has been empty for a very long time already.

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I decided to try and learn the profession. And since the only way to do that is PvP, and since in PvP there are no retarded PvE skills, I simply don't use them, even in PvE.

And SoI is a mesmer skill. Boxing up the profession to stereotypes of interrupts and energy denial (which is quite weak in PvE) is cookie-cutter mentality.

What would really be challenging, is to come up with a PvE mesmer build that can beat the others! Complete the mission in a shorter amount of time, killing faster and with fewer deaths. It is not going to be easy, but it is going to be interesting.

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

From past experience, I know your one of them "I doesn't matter how bad I am at the game, at least I'm creative and don't run cookie cutters" types. So let me lay down some facts:

- There are no more original builds, every good, working build in the game has been made and refined to it's peak, anything else is sub-optimal trash which some PvErs and bad PvPers play to give them a false sense of being good at the game.

- SoI and PvE skills is the new Mesmer "cookie cutter", which make your argument rather ironic.

Now for some opinions:

- SoI is a lame skill that was made to please the PvE Mesmer's who couldn't move on to PvP, and spent their whole time whining about how Mesmer's are bad in PvE.

- SoI may at first appear to be the skill of endless combinations, it's actually pretty limited. Since you can only combine (without the use of them Random Spell stealing skills, which is lame) skills from Mesmer's and one other profession, if you use lots of skills from your secondary, you'd be better off just using that profession as a primary, since it's primary attribute is made to synergies with the skills your using (E.G: Energy Storage for high costing ele skills, Divine Favor for Monk support) And PvP wise, SoI is interruptable, even with fast casting. And in PvE, your better off with an Ele Nuker. Oh, and it uses up your Elite Skill.

- The "Cookie Cutter" Domination Template in PvP is more flexable than gimmicky SoI.

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

- There are no more original builds, every good, working build in the game has been made and refined to it's peak, anything else is sub-optimal trash which some PvErs and bad PvPers play to give them a false sense of being good at the game.

I disagree. That is a very closed-minded mentality.

I think there are still many more good PvE builds that have yet to be discovered with so many possible combination of skills that we have today.

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- SoI and PvE skills is the new Mesmer "cookie cutter", which make your argument rather ironic.

SoI can be used for more than just PvE skills.

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Now for some opinions:

- SoI is a lame skill that was made to please the PvE Mesmer's who couldn't move on to PvP, and spent their whole time whining about how Mesmer's are bad in PvE.

Because PvP is FOTM cookie-cutter haven. Nothing creative happens there for a long while.

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- SoI may at first appear to be the skill of endless combinations, it's actually pretty limited. Since you can only combine (without the use of them Random Spell stealing skills, which is lame) skills from Mesmer's and one other profession, if you use lots of skills from your secondary, you'd be better off just using that profession as a primary, since it's primary attribute is made to synergies with the skills your using (E.G: Energy Storage for high costing ele skills, Divine Favor for Monk support) And PvP wise, SoI is interruptable, even with fast casting. And in PvE, your better off with an Ele Nuker. Oh, and it uses up your Elite Skill.

Again not true. Taking your example of Energy Storage, I can also use other energy management skills (e.g. GOLE) from my secondary class to help with the energy issues even without the natural advantage of Energy Storage.

Then you would say, just use a primary Ele then. But can a primary Ele have level 16 Inspiration, Illusion, Domination, Fast Casting, Energy Storage, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire Magic all at the same time?

The keyword here is synergy. Interrupts are not common in PvE and a mesmer can have more than 1 elite skill in her bar.

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I disagree. That is a very closed-minded mentality.

I think there are still many more good PvE builds that have yet to be discovered with so many possible combination of skills that we have today.

No, it's facts, good new builds only come around after skill balances, usually made by competent PvPers.

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Because PvP is FOTM cookie-cutter haven. Nothing creative happens there for a long while.

Nothing creative happens in PvE either, everyone just copies "cookie cutters" and farming builds off everyone else, which is why they complain about skill balances because their so bad at this game they cannot adapt. The truth is, you think you creative because PvE is so easy, that it forgives you for playing crap builds, PvP is less forgiving, especially GvG. And since you don' do any high end PvP, don't make sweeping generalisations. High end PvPers (GvG) are competitive, being creative is trival to winning, same as PvE really, apart from the fact PvP is more rewarding.

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Again not true. Taking your example of Energy Storage, I can also use other energy management skills (e.g. GOLE) from my secondary class to help with the energy issues even without the natural advantage of Energy Storage.

Regardless, the Majority of Ele skills are better cast by eles.

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Then you would say, just use a primary Ele then. But can a primary Ele have level 16 Inspiration, Illusion, Domination, Fast Casting, Energy Storage, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire Magic all at the same time?

Why would I want to waste an Elite skill on that, when I can have the perfect combination for Mesmers, with just Domination, Inspiration, and Fast Casting.

And, LOL at 16 in illusion..... Minor runes dude.

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The keyword here is synergy.

The keyword is "Ignorant"

upier · Mar 18, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I decided to try and learn the profession. And since the only way to do that is PvP, and since in PvP there are no retarded PvE skills, I simply don't use them, even in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

A few pictures from my first ever FoW run, not bad.

Is that ... CoP I see there?

This thread:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...51#post5295951

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

- SoI is a lame skill that was made to please the PvE Mesmer's who couldn't move on to PvP, and spent their whole time whining about how Mesmer's are bad in PvE.

Why do you feel that moving to PvP is actually something people strive for?

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Is that ... CoP I see there?

Well.... CoP is.... ok.... since in some respects it's a Mesmer skill, and it not terribly broken in the way Ursan is.

Plus it was requested by the team leader, it would be wrong of me to refuse and ruin it for them.

That picture changes very little. Although, knowing the person he is, Darkspirit will no doubt use it to deny facts.

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Why do you feel that moving to PvP is actually something people strive for?

It's the higher level of play in the game (particularly GvG), it's only natural that good players will seek the challenge.

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

No, it's facts, good new builds only come around after skill balances, usually made by competent PvPers.

Lol! That's what they used to say a long long time ago.

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Nothing creative happens in PvE either, everyone just copies "cookie cutters" and farming builds off everyone else, which is why they complain about skill balances because their so bad at this game they cannot adapt. The truth is, you think you creative because PvE is so easy, that it forgives you for playing crap builds, PvP is less forgiving, especially GvG. And since you don' do any high end PvP, don't make sweeping generalisations. High end PvPers (GvG) are competitive, being creative is trival to winning, same as PvE really, apart from the fact PvP is more rewarding.

Yes ideas do get passed around (as in PvP), but new builds do get created. PvE is just different from PvP.

You have environmental effects, you face monsters that are 1.5 times your level and you can face more than 8 monsters at a time.

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Regardless, the Majority of Ele skills are better cast by eles.

Then tell the E/Me to not use mesmer skills then.

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Why would I want to waste an Elite skill on that, when I can have the perfect combination for Mesmers, with just Domination, Inspiration, and Fast Casting

And, LOL at 16 in illusion..... Minor runes dude. .

Minor runes lack power.

And dont assume everyone wants to move to PvP like you. It is a higher level of rank discrimination and FOTM cookie-cutter stereotyping.

upier · Mar 18, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Well.... CoP is.... ok.... since in some respects it's a Mesmer skill, and it not terribly broken in the way Ursan is.

Plus it was requested by the team leader, it would be wrong of me to refuse and ruin it for them.

That picture changes very little. Although, knowing the person he is, Darkspirit will no doubt use it to deny facts.

CoP is bloody Spiritual Pain on steroids!
It's insanely broken. Why the hell do you think pretty much everyone is using it?

And no - you wouldn't ruin it for everyone by saying "Screw you guys! I am not bringing it!". It's FoW. Normal mode.
Unless the guys went 180° on everything the events stood for those 2 years ago (or is it more?) - the main point should still be about having fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

It's the higher level of play in the game (particularly GvG), it's only natural that good players will seek the challenge.

People that desire competitive gameplay will seek challenge in PvP.
Seriously - some people just don't find PvP fun enough to waste their time on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Minor runes lack power.

They don't. The only difference is that in PvE the negative side of sup runes is much, much, much easier to bypass.

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Lol! That's what they used to say a long long time ago.

Ok then, post one of your so called "Creative" builds, so that I can see how creative is actually is, and how well it actually works

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Yes ideas do get passed around (as in PvP), but new builds do get created. PvE is just different from PvP.

PvE being different form PvP is what PvErs say to make themselves feel as if they are good at something that the PvPers are not, in truth, PvP are just as good (if not better) in PvE than the so called "PvErs" Proving that either A: PvP are better at this game on the whole than PvErs, or that B: PvP and PvE are similar in the sense of Mechanics and skills. Or both.

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You have environmental effects, you face monsters that are 1.5 times your level and you can face more than 8 monsters at a time.

Monsters are stupid. PvP also has enviormental effects in places. In GvG you have to fight 8 smart players.

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Minor runes lack power.

No, you just don't know how to play, the two attribute points are not worth the health loss. Good players can play at 14 attribute points for their main att.

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And dont assume everyone wants to move to PvP like you. It is a higher level of rank discrimination and FOTM cookie-cutter stereotyping.

A few things here:

- PvE has just as much discrimation as PvP, it was proven many times.
- Your sterotyping as well, without realising that PvE is filled with even worse scum than PvP.

"Look at my leet FoW armor and choas gloves, you only have 1K amor noob!"
"Look at my God walking amongst Mere Mortals title, and all the skillful grind I did to get it, rawr"
"OMG, a new rare item, I must play stupid amounts of money to buy it and look even leeter, regardless of whether the item looks good."
"This W/Mo build pwns"
"I got Legendary Survivor on my Mesmer, that means Im good at Mesmers"

At least the better PvPers in this game has a clue about what skill is.

I'm tried of playing this little game of see "How naive and ignorant Darkspirit is" It was barely fun in the last thread I had to do it in.... Ta ta.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 19, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

A few things here:

- PvE has just as much discrimation as PvP, it was proven many times.
- Your sterotyping as well, without realising that PvE is filled with even worse scum than PvP.

"Look at my leet FoW armor and choas gloves, you only have 1K amor noob!"
"Look at my God walking amongst Mere Mortals title, and all the skillful grind I did to get it, rawr"
"OMG, a new rare item, I must play stupid amounts of money to buy it and look even leeter, regardless of whether the item looks good."
"This W/Mo build pwns"
"I got Legendary Survivor on my Mesmer, that means Im good at Mesmers"

At least the better PvPers in this game has a clue about what skill is.

I'm tried of playing this little game of see "How naive and ignorant Darkspirit is" It was barely fun in the last thread I had to do it in.... Ta ta.

Just asking (not in a hostile manner here, it's curiosity) where you feel the solo players (who play mainly PvE and mainly with heroes and henchmen, or occasionally guild teams) fit in on the scale.

DarkSpirit · Mar 19, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

..snip...

I really can't be bothered to go through another round of PvP vs PvE flamming with you. Afterall, you are also the one who recommended replacing the ONLY mesmer in a PvE team with ANOTHER nuker.

I dont care if you think you are a god in PvP or just a noob. We are talking about PvE mesmers in this thread, so you can stop with your PvP > PvE, "I know everything", rant now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They don't. The only difference is that in PvE the negative side of sup runes is much, much, much easier to bypass.

2 attribute points difference is measurable. And yes, the negative side of sup runes is much easier to bypass in PvE.

JDRyder · Mar 19, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

.35 is your time to react. if your reflex is less than that you will hit the skill. learn basic math kthxbai.

think i said that about 2 pages ago

Coloneh · Mar 19, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Shuuda, this is a PvE discussion. we know mesmers are good in PvP. no one cares. the discussion was about PvE, If you fail to understand the difference please stop posting you are distracting people from the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

think i said that about 2 pages ago

I replied 4 posts after you. on the same page

upier · Mar 19, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

2 attribute points difference is measurable. And yes, the negative side of sup runes is much easier to bypass in PvE.

It limits your options though.
So in PvE - it is seriously up to the player to weight in the negatives and the positives of this.
Personally - when running dom builds - I never see why I should run more then 14 in it. When running illusion - Clumsiness and Wandering are both capped at 4 secs - so the only thing thing I am gaining is the extra damage. Once again - personally - not worth it.

BUT because of consumables, blessings, because of the concept of aggro, ... - the negative sides are much easier to bypass. They do require more work - either in terms of how the game must be played or pretty much just in terms what one must waste their money on.

So as a general rule in I'd be still inclined to say that sups aren't worth it. But one can make them work - not because the effect would be THAT much stronger - but rather because it's PvE and can toy around with breaking the rules.
It limits your options though.

Tyla · Mar 19, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You have environmental effects, you face monsters that are 1.5 times your level and you can face more than 8 monsters at a time.

Yet, they're easily exploited. AI = stupid.

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Then tell the E/Me to not use mesmer skills then.

The ability to use both professions is powerful when you get good synergy, ala Mending Touch on a Ranger.

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Minor runes lack power.

The health loss which can mean the life or death of your character isn't worth sacrifice.

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And dont assume everyone wants to move to PvP like you. It is a higher level of rank discrimination and FOTM cookie-cutter stereotyping.

People only use 'rank descrimination' as an excuse.
I herd friend list was gud.
P.S: That's mainly in Heroes' Ascent.

DarkSpirit · Mar 19, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It limits your options though.
So in PvE - it is seriously up to the player to weight in the negatives and the positives of this.
Personally - when running dom builds - I never see why I should run more then 14 in it. When running illusion - Clumsiness and Wandering are both capped at 4 secs - so the only thing thing I am gaining is the extra damage. Once again - personally - not worth it.

Clumsiness and Wandering Eye is a difference of 10 damage between 14 and 16. Probably alittle more worth it for Wandering Eye since it is 10 damage for each nearby foes.

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BUT because of consumables, blessings, because of the concept of aggro, ... - the negative sides are much easier to bypass. They do require more work - either in terms of how the game must be played or pretty much just in terms what one must waste their money on.

Mesmer superior runes are dirt cheap fyi.

And it doesn't require much work in PvE to bypass the disadvantages of a superior runes in PvE, just ask the nukers.

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So as a general rule in I'd be still inclined to say that sups aren't worth it. But one can make them work - not because the effect would be THAT much stronger - but rather because it's PvE and can toy around with breaking the rules.
It limits your options though.

I think it expands my options rather than limit it, but that can be a matter of opinion. Having level 16 illusion for a SoI build is worth it for me. If you have a problem keeping yourself alive in PvE then use minor, if you dont then you can use superior. I would gladly trade in some health for any ability to kill faster in PvE since I hardly die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

The health loss which can mean the life or death of your character isn't worth sacrifice.

Because it is so easy to kite in PvE, I hardly die even with a superior rune. Make use of the terrain, kite well, dont over aggro, etc. With the right skills, it is easy to avoid getting killed while wearing a superior rune since PvE is not that hard.

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I herd friend list was gud.

Since I started playing when this game first started, all my friends have moved on to other games by now. I mainly H/H nowadays.

upier · Mar 19, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Clumsiness and Wandering Eye is a difference of 10 damage between 14 and 16. Probably alittle more worth it for Wandering Eye since it is 10 damage for each nearby foes.

And that's what ... 2ish wand hits?
You did give up 75hp for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Mesmer superior runes are dirt cheap fyi.
And it doesn't require much work in PvE to bypass the disadvantages of a superior runes in PvE, just ask the nukers.

It's not about runes. It's more about blessings, consumables and DP removal thingies.
Personally - if I'd run around with sup runes - which would mean putting myself in much graver danger - I'd try to negate it in other ways. Especially if other people would have more hp.
That's the easiest way to bypass it. But you need to pay for it.

DarkSpirit · Mar 19, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's what ... 2ish wand hits?
You did give up 75hp for it.

You want to wand each nearby foe? It also depends on your build.

Besides 3 level 21 assassin and 1 level 21 mursaat is enough of a tank for me and well worth my superior rune, not to mention the level 16 energy benefits and attack skills from my secondary.

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It's not about runes. It's more about blessings, consumables and DP removal thingies.
Personally - if I'd run around with sup runes - which would mean putting myself in much graver danger - I'd try to negate it in other ways. Especially if other people would have more hp.
That's the easiest way to bypass it. But you need to pay for it.

I dont even need consummables to stay alive. If you know how to use the terrain and kite, PvE is way too easy to be worried about that. That said, I tend to put minor runes into heroes though since they are not as smart.

If you have problems staying alive in PvE, then by all means, use a minor rune. HP is overrated and is mainly used, in PvE, by people who like to ctrl-click their health bar and boast about it. My Gwen also hardly dies with the right build, even in HM, but then she has 89 armor and -2 damage reduction at all times.