Curse

Carinae · Apr 20, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This improves SR.
That is NOT needed.

Yes it is, you are wrong. It makes it more consistent. More reliable. Less random. Less exploitable. Lowers overall returns. Eliminates sharring.

It does become unbounded again, just like every other primary attribute. But the condition for getting energy cannot be artifically manufactured, nor can it be sharred with other necros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

That would, actually, be a very decent change. Minions and spirits are the true thing that overpowers SR. Without minions, taking off the SR timer only affects you if you get more then 3 kills in 15 seconds. And if you get 4 kills in 15 seconds, you have already won the fight, right?

Repent! The end is near! Meth agrees with me again!

Exactly. If you're killing monsters/players, I don't CARE what the SR energy returns are. Period. Because you're playing the game. Playing it better gains you more energy, which is actually how it should work.

Expertise works all the time, the more skills you use the more benefit you gain. Expertise is therefore unbounded and the benefit is much easier to trigger. Use a skill. Whereas with SR you need to get a KILL. That's inherently more difficult that pressing a button.

Same argument works for Divine Favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones.
10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror.
15: animate bone fiend.

I agree completely. That's how I'd prorate them. I'm actually getting scared now....

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 20, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'm actually getting scarred now....

It's scared

Seems to me that if Carinae and Ensign both agree on the point, then it should be settled. I agree, /closethread

Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.

The Meth · Apr 20, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'm actually getting scarred now....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

It's scared

Who knows, maybe scarred is the intended word?

If I keep this up I might be able to permanently disfigure Carinae with my posts.

Of course, the whole idea of getting something in PvE balanced is ridiculous. Whole thread is therefor a failure no matter how much we can agree on stuff.
Maybe in GW2.

Carinae · Apr 20, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

It's scared

Damn. I knew something was wromg with that sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.

I have, indeed.

upier · Apr 20, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Yes it is, you are wrong. It makes it more consistent. More reliable. Less random. Less exploitable. Lowers overall returns. Eliminates sharring.

It does become unbounded again, just like every other primary attribute. But the condition for getting energy cannot be artifically manufactured, nor can it be sharred with other necros.

This is a joke right?
The returns will be bigger - by definition.
Non mm-teams - we have the same system as we do now - just without the timer. Which means that the necros will gain the same amount of energy that they did now PLUS the energy that would be gained after the initial 3 triggers.
MM teams - as shown by a examples - the problem is that the minions cause the returns to happen when the energy bar is not ready for them. Which lowers the returns. Because you know - you "only" gain 25 energy that way and then nothing from them 7 foes you killed.
Now if the minions do not contribute to that - the only way the necro will not be getting back whole returns is if a foes dies too fast for the necro to contribute to it's demise.
Which means we have a less random, more reliable system with bigger returns.
Yep, just what SR needs.

jayce · Apr 20, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Also, has anyone else noticed Moloch's almost suspicious avoidance of this thread, weird.

are you kidding? the moment this turned into a how to balance soul reaping discussion for pve is the moment this thread ended. afterwhich, the very second you start talking about how to balance soul reaping for pve, especially in a thread titled in this mannor, will be the very second that you are found guilty by reason of insanity. at this point, if they can't fix it for good (and i dont mean just pve), then just leave it alone and reply to the thread with either a yes or no answer.

Jayce Of Underworld

System_Crush · Apr 20, 2008, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.

Yes please

================================

Well could still [[Blood is Power] yourself to death, to share a lot of energy with a team of necros.
But it will get rid of the whole sr return sharing gimic that sabs build relies on.

And it kinda makes sense too, undead don't have souls so you shouldn't be able to reap them.
(that goes for PvE undead foes as well, which will cause a lot of complaining in the end, but I guess it helps us PvEers)
Then again, not being able to manufacture the condition, will make SR less useful in PvP as deaths are far less common there.
(unless I get floored repeatedly be a E/A SavannahSin)

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 20, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.

This makes me nostalgic.

Carinae · Apr 20, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This is a joke right?
The returns will be bigger - by definition.
Non mm-teams - we have the same system as we do now - just without the timer. Which means that the necros will gain the same amount of energy that they did now PLUS the energy that would be gained after the initial 3 triggers.
MM teams - as shown by a examples - the problem is that the minions cause the returns to happen when the energy bar is not ready for them. Which lowers the returns. Because you know - you "only" gain 25 energy that way and then nothing from them 7 foes you killed.
Now if the minions do not contribute to that - the only way the necro will not be getting back whole returns is if a foes dies too fast for the necro to contribute to it's demise.
Which means we have a less random, more reliable system with bigger returns.
Yep, just what SR needs.

You are a troll, this will be the last time I respond to you unless you make an actual contribution to the thread. You don't like SR. You think it's too strong. Duly noted.

When I play anything other than MM, blue bar is already full all the time. If it isn't, wait, 2 seconds. Removing the timer affects that how? You don't like that? Then play another class. It's how necros work. You (and a few others) have a ridiculous notion that they should be like every other class (but without a functional primary) in managing energy. QQ more. You might as well complain that Sins deal more damage with daggers than a necro!!! (oh noes) My Sin and Ranger don't bring e-management, and they NEVER run out of energy. QQ more. I notice that you conveniently ignore any examples or topics that counter your silly "QQ it's too good" argument.

On an MM, blue bar crashes because SR falls flat on its face due to unintended dynamics within SR. Yes, unintended. The only actual reason to tone it down would be PvP, except in PvP it barely functions at all.

You're actually trying to argue that an e-management Primary Attribute, which inherently should be better than any Elite Skill, should have to be augmented with additional skill based e-management? And for what? What benefit is gained by toning it down in PvE?

Seriously. Answer that question.

What aspect of Guild Wars is disrupted by SR's relative strength? (beyond sharing SR hits, which IS broken)

Are people not playing other classes because SR is too good? Does it just piss you off that necros get free energy? What?

Bront · Apr 21, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. As I said in the previous threads on this topic, if you think "the timer is OK because I still have more energy than I can use," that means you were never able to use SR "right" in the first place. I hate to be elitist, but a good player could put all of the energy that pre-nerf SR provided to good use and still want more. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you need to accept that serious discussion of the topic is beyond you, and stop posting.

This right here is a reason to nerf a skill. Pre-Nerf, you say you could cast to your heart's content. Well, no class should be able to do that. Part of the balancing act is getting your skills set up to work with your existing energy. Infinite energy removes that balance. At least an E Mindblast build requires you to use Mindblast to keep your energy up, and actually stops if your energy gets too low, so can be subject to coordinated energy drain to shut down the infinite energy train.

I'm not saying the timer is a great solution, though at least the fix where if you're maxed it doesn't count against your 3 helps with that a bit. A fractional solution similar to how Mysticism works might function better (1 HP per point, 1 energy per 3), or limiting the effect of minions (Either they don't count, or only your own minions count) might help.

A better option would be to rework Soul Reaping entirely and make an enchantment that functioned similar to Boon of Creation but for deaths. it'd require a skill slot, be an enchantment so strip able, and could be tweaked a little easier.

Carinae · Apr 21, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

The primary attribute for Necromancers should probably have been based on Lifestealing, not SR at all. Something like "Steal X health from target foe whenever you cast a spell on a foe." Where X is your rank in the primary attribute.

Or, maybe "For every rank in your primary attribute, you steal an additional 5% health when you steal life."

The second one allow other classes to use lifesteals, but makes necros better at it noticably.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 21, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The primary attribute for Necromancers should probably have been based on Lifestealing, not SR at all. Something like "Steal X health from target foe whenever you cast a spell on a foe." Where X is your rank in the primary attribute.

Or, maybe "For every rank in your primary attribute, you steal an additional 5% health when you steal life."

The second one allow other classes to use lifesteals, but makes necros better at it noticably.

That version of soulreaping would've put bloodspike on PCP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

though at least the fix where if you're maxed it doesn't count against your 3 helps with that a bit.

Dude, that is why soul reaping needs the fix in the first place; it's NOT working. Guess what happens if you're casting a 15 energy spell when two things die? You gain 15 energy, not 20-26 like intended. It happens alot more often than you would think.

The point of this whole thread is that Necromancers have the jankiest, most random, eratic energy management in the game. When you can control it, it's broken. When you can't, it sucks abyssmally. Thus, everyone is trying to find a happy mid-ground where its alright, all the time.

Carinae · Apr 21, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

That version of soulreaping would've put bloodspike on PCP.

Ah, yea, I forgot to add that existing lifesteals would be toned down so that they are about their current strength (maybe slightly buffed) with a solid investment in your Primary Att. Good catch.

It's just a thought, not an actual proposal.

Bront · Apr 21, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Dude, that is why soul reaping needs the fix in the first place; it's NOT working. Guess what happens if you're casting a 15 energy spell when two things die? You gain 15 energy, not 20-26 like intended. It happens alot more often than you would think.

The specific issue was if you were Full (ie 42/42 or whatever), it didn't count.

Beyond that, it's like overhealing. Complaining about the lost health (or in this case energy) is pointless, since you simply couldn't handle it.

But seriously, consistant or not, Necros get energy management easier than other classes because they are constantly gaining energy without skill investments. Sure, Elementalists get ES, but once they spend the energy, they recharge just as fast as other characters, so they still need Energy management. Dervishes get very little energy from their enchantments, so their entire energy management scenario can't rely on that. Paragons have leadership and.... well, that's potentially broken too, so we'll ignore that one. Even Ranger's expertise only effects certain skills, and reduces their costs, which doesn't supply an infinite amount of energy. Necros get a fairly large stream of constant energy that means they need almost no other energy management in PvE beyond specing into SR. No other profession has that (beyond the Paragon, who, as I mentioned, has it's own balance issues), and either must curtail their energy spending by skill selection and use, or use energy management skills that take up valuable skill bar space.

Just because it was unlimited before doesn't mean it was better then, nor does it mean it was fair then. The problem is two fold: What method can be consistent enough to count on in PvP but not abusive in PvE. PvP relying on death is a potential issue, because, as mentioned, by the time that happens, the tide of the battle is turning one way or the other, while in PvE, deaths happen quite often. It's possable there may not be a fix without a complete rework (perhaps something similar to how Expertise works by reducing costs, fractional energy awards (1/2,1/3, or 1/4 SR per death), or insert other clever solution here), which may require new or reworked skills to compliment the E-Management loss.

Honestly, there are thing "more broken" in PvE outside of SR, but SR does contribute to some of the "brokenness" in PvE as constituted.

Div · Apr 23, 2008, 11:53 AM // 11:53

8 pages of talking about other stuff, 10 days, and 30 reports later, it's about time for this thread to die.