Curse

Chthon · Apr 17, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

your arguing for changes that you want,none that particularly express the views of every active or the majority of player/s with a necro

1. I would certainly prefer Carinae's changes to the status quo.

2. I think every good necromancer agrees that, whatever else else happens to it, the timer absolutely must go. I think every sane necromancer wants to see the timer gone too.

3. As I said in the previous threads on this topic, if you think "the timer is OK because I still have more energy than I can use," that means you were never able to use SR "right" in the first place. I hate to be elitist, but a good player could put all of the energy that pre-nerf SR provided to good use and still want more. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you need to accept that serious discussion of the topic is beyond you, and stop posting.

(Wow, that did sound really elitist, now didn't it? I think I must be channeling Stromlord Alex....)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The timer produces an unintended effect of randomizing your SR returns. You can't plan for them, you can't do anything. At unexpected times, you run dry. Broken!

I think that's the crux of what bothers me about the timer. Playing MM before the timer, I could plan an entire battle before it even started. I could go into a battle knowing how many fiends and how many horrors I had, with a pretty good idea of how many of each kind was old enough to need replacing. I could count the fleshy and non-fleshy monsters and know how much energy I would gain and how many corpses would be available. So I could make a plan. I could plan which minions to recycle; I could know how much spare energy I'd have and decide beforehand which spells to spend it on for maximum effect; and I could know how many spare corpses I'd have for making wells.
But none of that works anymore. It's just not possible to play MM at that level anymore because of the way that the timer randomizes SR. At 12 SR, a 10-monster mob can give you as much as 120e or as little as 3e and you have very little control over which you're going to get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

If you read further, for PvE I said bone fiends would need to be reduced in energy (15 energy would be a good number). I think it should be made much harder to make a full army of 10 bone fiends. I would rather turn bone fiends from the best minion in the game that everyone uses into the best minion in the game that requires you to manage your energy very well to use. The other minions I believe will be fairly balanced at that energy gain rate.

What Carinae is saying is that we've gone over that particular idea at great length before. We've crunched the numbers, and 6 pips is not enough at current spell costs. And 3 is nowhere close. Even with lowered spell costs, 3 isn't going to be adequate. 6 might be, but it's got serious problems with delivering the energy at a time when it will be useful.

Even Ensign, the first person to really suggest a pip-based SR reworking, eventually abandoned it and came to favor some variant on a battery-based reworking instead. (Here's my description of how a battery-based SR would work: Link.)

Quote:

I don't think its unreasonable to prevent necromancers from spamming their minion skills every single time a corpse drops. If they want to do that, they might need to (shudder), go /E and take glyph of lesser energy like every other caster has been doing for a year. Making necros actually think about managing their energy? What a crazy idea, I know.

But it is unreasonable. The whole point of soul reaping is to provide in-built energy management. You don't compel elementalists to put points in e-storage and bring skills to boost their energy pool. You don't compel mesmers to put points in fast casting and bring skills to increase their cast speed. You don't compel rangers to put points in expertise and bring skills for e-management. So why compel necromancers to put points in soul reaping and bring skills for e-management? Why make them the only class that has to bring skills to do the job that its primary attribute is supposed to do, but isn't doing?

(It was mentioned before that, if a-net (1) gave necros attunement-quality e-management skills in the SR line instead of the few, poor, chapter-specific skills we have now, and (2) lowered the e-costs on a whole bunch of necro skills that are artificially high to balance them against SR, and (3) made sure that SR did something useful, THEN it would be totally OK if SR was reworked into something totally different that had nothing to do with e-management.)

Calista Blackblood · Apr 17, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. I would certainly prefer Carinae's changes to the status quo.

2. I think every good necromancer agrees that, whatever else else happens to it, the timer absolutely must go. I think every sane necromancer wants to see the timer gone too.

3. As I said in the previous threads on this topic, if you think "the timer is OK because I still have more energy than I can use," that means you were never able to use SR "right" in the first place. I hate to be elitist, but a good player could put all of the energy that pre-nerf SR provided to good use and still want more. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you need to accept that serious discussion of the topic is beyond you, and stop posting.

(Wow, that did sound really elitist, now didn't it? I think I must be channeling Stromlord Alex....)

you win the thread

Quote:

At 12 SR, a 10-monster mob can give you as much as 120e or as little as 3e and you have very little control over which you're going to get.

how can a mob give you as little as 3 energy if you spec at 12sr? if your vs a 10 strong mob with old sr the potential is an undeniable 120 energy.currently you will get your 12 energy 3 times within that 15 sec period.the timer doesnt randomize the amount of energy you gain that it could stoop as low as 3

if this was a typo my bad

Turbobusa · Apr 17, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

If you know the mobs, the professions, and be able to know the issue of the fight, how can you not be able to know how long it can last and therefore know how many times SR will trigger?

Tyla · Apr 17, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I don't believe the timer should be removed to be honest.
It's already stupidly powerful in the PvE enviroment. Heck, I've NEVER seen my Necro heroes go wrong on energy. SoLS not included.

Calista Blackblood · Apr 17, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

If you know the mobs, the professions, and be able to know the issue of the fight, how can you not be able to know how long it can last and therefore know how many times SR will trigger?

read chthon's comment again. there is no way wether sr is timed or not that a mob will only give 3 energy if your specced at 12sr.

Turbobusa · Apr 17, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

You'll always get 3*SR won't you? And if it triggers when already at max energy what would you need that extra energy for?

Calista Blackblood · Apr 17, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

You'll always get 3*SR won't you? And if it triggers when already at max energy what would you need that extra energy for?

yeah 3x12 energy per 15 second period if specced at 12 sr.provided your not hexed with atrophy or wail of doom when your gain triggers there is nothing that can lower sr gain to 3 energy

again if it was as typo chthon my bad

zling · Apr 17, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But it is unreasonable. The whole point of soul reaping is to provide in-built energy management. You don't compel elementalists to put points in e-storage and bring skills to boost their energy pool. You don't compel mesmers to put points in fast casting and bring skills to increase their cast speed. You don't compel rangers to put points in expertise and bring skills for e-management. So why compel necromancers to put points in soul reaping and bring skills for e-management? Why make them the only class that has to bring skills to do the job that its primary attribute is supposed to do, but isn't doing?

(It was mentioned before that, if a-net (1) gave necros attunement-quality e-management skills in the SR line instead of the few, poor, chapter-specific skills we have now, and (2) lowered the e-costs on a whole bunch of necro skills that are artificially high to balance them against SR, and (3) made sure that SR did something useful, THEN it would be totally OK if SR was reworked into something totally different that had nothing to do with e-management.)

ummm... Elementalists not bringing E-Management skills? did I miss something here? Every Elementalist brings his element's Attunement, most bring even more, Dual Attunements, Mind Blast, Glowing Gaze, Assassin's Promise, Glyph of Lesser Energy, etc...

yes Rangers arent bringing any E-Management skills but they adjust their skill bar and Expertise attribute according to their skill bar, compromising their other attributes for it...

yes Mesmers arent bringing any Fast Casting skills because honestly, they dont need to...

but what about the others? Dervishes DO bring E-Management even with Mysticism, Warriors DO bring damage skills even with Strength, Paragons SOMETIMES bring some E-Management even with Leadership, Assassins SOMETIMES bring some E-Management even with Critical Strikes, Monks DO bring some form of healing even with Divine Favour, Ritualists DO bring everything they need even with Spawning Powers.

so what exactly is your point? Soul Reaping IS the BEST E-Management Primary Attribute and plainly THE BEST Primary Attribute in all aspects! compare it to Spawning Powers, Strength, Fast Casting and whatever else you want and Soul Reaping just comes on top! and you're crying about a little nerf to it that even post nerf it still IS the BEST Primary Attribute?!?!?!

oh wow so your Necro doesnt have an UNLIMITED Energy Pool any longer, it is SLIGHTLY limited now.
oh wow so your MM cant "plan" his entire battle before hand, actually it can but you just need to ADJUST.

and yes I DO play my Necro and play him a lot!

Carinae · Apr 17, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

how can a mob give you as little as 3 energy if you spec at 12sr?

Because you have zero SR hits left (due to minion recycling), and wipe the whole mob in four seconds (due to teammates).

It's actually happens.

Chthon · Apr 17, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

how can a mob give you as little as 3 energy if you spec at 12sr?

Like this:
Start at full energy.
Cast a 5e spell. (BotM perhaps?)
After 3 sec, you will be at full-minus-1 energy.
Something dies. You gain 1e. 11e is lost to overflow. SR timer starts.
Cast a 5e spell. Assuming 1sec cast time, 14 sec left on timer.
After 3 sec, you will be at full-minus-1-energy. 11 sec left on timer.
Something dies. You gain 1e. 11e is lost to overflow.
Cast a 5e spell. Assuming 1sec cast time, 10 sec left on timer.
After 3 sec, you will be at full-minus-1-energy. 7 sec left on timer.
Something dies. You gain 1e. 11e is lost to overflow.
Other 7 monsters die in an AoE explosion during the remaining 7sec before timer expires.

That's 3e gained total for 10 monsters. Admittedly, it's the extreme worst case scenario, but it's possible, and it demonstrates the point that the SR timer creates VERY random results (a 6000% variation in potential energy returns!) and has a very bad interaction with the overflow mechanic.

Here's a much more common scenario where you get less than 3*SR:
You are at full-minus-10 energy.
You cast shambling horror for 15e.
Minion cap kicks in and kills a shambling horror. You gain 12e.
Jagged horror spawns, and the minion cap kicks in and kills another shambling horror. You gain 12e.
Jagged horror spawns, and the minion cap kicks in and kills another shambling horror. You gain 1e. 11e is lost to overflow.

Now you've got 15sec of no energy at all, and you only gained 25e total.
(If you wipe the mob during that 15sec, you'd actually get ZERO energy from 10 monsters. So I was wrong to say 3e; your minions can screw your SR up and leave you with 0e. Which is a particular problem if you spend down your bar during that 15 sec and have no way of getting it back up. (Remember that MM's must spend very nearly all 4 pips to maintain their army between battles.))

The point is not so much "waaah I'm not getting enough energy" (although that's a valid point), but that any mechanic which works in such an ugly and random way, on conflicts with other mechanics so badly really has something very very wrong with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

ummm... Elementalists not bringing E-Management skills? did I miss something here?

Yes, you did. Repeat after me: "Energy pool" is NOT the same thing as "energy management." Got it? Good.
Elementalists take e-management, but they do not take skills to give them a deeper pool. When was the last time you saw an elementalist using avatar of lyssa?

Quote:

yes Mesmers arent bringing any Fast Casting skills because honestly, they dont need to...

Because fast casting does what it's supposed to do. That's my point.

Quote:

but what about the others? Dervishes DO bring E-Management even with Mysticism,

Oh-look-I'm-a-caster dervishes do. If you've got a melee dervish bringing any more e-management than mysticism and a zealous scythe, you've got a bad dervish on your hands.

Quote:

Warriors DO bring damage skills even with Strength,

Strength's inherent effect is so trivial as to be irrelevant. People spec it for the huge number of skills the line offers. If SR had that many useful skills in it (including a couple attunement-level e-management skills), then it would be fine if SR was just as useless as strength. But that's not the case.

Quote:

Paragons SOMETIMES bring some E-Management even with Leadership,

No they don't. They bring already useful skills that just happen to work with leadership. GftE is a great skill on its own, even without the energy gain. SoLS, GoLE, etc. do nothing meaningful aside from the energy gain.

Quote:

Assassins SOMETIMES bring some E-Management even with Critical Strikes,

Critical Eye is closer to a pure e-management skill than the paragon shouts, but it's still giving a non-stop damage boost and proccing on-critical skills that make it potentially worth taking even without the energy gain.

Quote:

Monks DO bring some form of healing even with Divine Favour,

DF is really energy management. And, I must admit that monks are the one other class that has a e-management primary and needs to bring e-management skills.

Quote:

Ritualists DO bring everything they need even with Spawning Powers.

That's because spawning power is a useless, sorry-we-ran-out-of-ideas piece of crap masquerading as a primary attribute. Do you really want another class with a primary as bad as that?

cellardweller · Apr 17, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. I would certainly prefer Carinae's changes to the status quo.

2. I think every good necromancer agrees that, whatever else else happens to it, the timer absolutely must go. I think every sane necromancer wants to see the timer gone too.

3. As I said in the previous threads on this topic, if you think "the timer is OK because I still have more energy than I can use," that means you were never able to use SR "right" in the first place. I hate to be elitist, but a good player could put all of the energy that pre-nerf SR provided to good use and still want more. If you can't understand that, then perhaps you need to accept that serious discussion of the topic is beyond you, and stop posting.

(Wow, that did sound really elitist, now didn't it? I think I must be channeling Stromlord Alex....)

You have it round the wrong way - the argument isn't that you couldn't spend the energy, its that you shouldn't have had that much energy to spend in the first place. The problem with an unbounded Soul Reaping is that it completely removes the element of energy management from the profession - any time the question "should I use this skill now?" question was asked the answer is yes because the unlimited energy pool meant that you didn't lose anything by not casting.

You don't need to look any further than orders necs that used to be able to hit heal party on recharge to see the problems that unbounded energy gives. You should not have the energy to put a 15e hex on every enemy, you should not have the energy to exploit every corpse with a 25e minion and you certainly should not have the energy to mash a 15e 2r monk skill on recharge.

This is not an argument for the timer, it is an argument against moving back to any version of SR that does not have an cap on the amount of energy you can receive per second like the one that Carinae is proposing.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 17, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I hate this thread. Someone make it go away - plz.

Soul Reaping is fine as it is, Sure Carinae may be right, but there are a lot of other changes I'd be more concerned with. This thread was created to be a troll. Even looking at the name is irritating. As far as MMs are concerned, heroes do it a lot better and are more suited to such a mind numbing, boring, work-like task. Ever since ANet put a cap on the amount of Minions you could have, I've totally lost interest in being a MM.

The Meth · Apr 17, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But it is unreasonable. The whole point of soul reaping is to provide in-built energy management. You don't compel elementalists to put points in e-storage and bring skills to boost their energy pool. You don't compel mesmers to put points in fast casting and bring skills to increase their cast speed. You don't compel rangers to put points in expertise and bring skills for e-management. So why compel necromancers to put points in soul reaping and bring skills for e-management? Why make them the only class that has to bring skills to do the job that its primary attribute is supposed to do, but isn't doing?

That arguement is a load of crap. Were talking about one professions energy management vs another professions energy management. Not the effect of one profession's primary attribute vs another one. Since the only other two professions who have primary attributes that directly affect energy are paragon and ranger, lets look at them vs the necro.

Paragon: All paragons take at least 1 or 2 spammable shouts. Not even if they need them, just for the sake of energy.
Rangers: Run out of energy very, very quickly if they start using 10+ skills too often. They have to select the most efficient skills for their job and use them wisely. If they want to use high energy stuff often, they have to dedicate an elite to it.
Necros (right now): Can delete their energy bar from the screen for all it matters. Their build might use SoLS if for some reason they want to animate 8 fiends in a row.
Necros (After my nerf, and appropriate skill energy balances): Have to deal with their energy just like other classes. They still get a good boost in energy (75% more energy from other classes without skills), but no more spamming skills on recharge.

Overall, its about a 50% nerf in maximum energy gain at 12 SR. I fail to see how its THAT much harder to use bone fiends at 25 energy vs bone fiends at 15 energy when you gain 50% less energy from SR. Keep in mind with your original energy regeneration and an energy management skill, you will have closer to 65-70% of your original energy gain rate. On the other hand, its actually a bit of a buff for PvP (where necros are weak atm) providing them with a small, but useful energy addition. It also would force the necro to actually have some situational awareness and good positioning, since the range is much smaller now. SR actually useful in PvP in a balanced build for once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(It was mentioned before that, if a-net (1) gave necros attunement-quality e-management skills in the SR line instead of the few, poor, chapter-specific skills we have now, and (2) lowered the e-costs on a whole bunch of necro skills that are artificially high to balance them against SR, and (3) made sure that SR did something useful, THEN it would be totally OK if SR was reworked into something totally different that had nothing to do with e-management.)

1. As far as energy management goes Anet just needs to make SoLS a core skill.

2. I already said lowering bone fiend cost a bit to 15. The other minion skills are pretty reasonable. If needed, putting bone horror and minions at 5, fiends at 15, and the rest at 10 would be a good scale as well (keeping in mind bone minions and shambling horror aren't giving extra bonuses from SR deaths, we can reduce them). As for the other attributes they shouldn't be too much disadvantaged (blood still sucks hard, good curse spells aren't that expensive and last the entire battle).

3. Making SR a balanced attribute is kind of what we are talking about i think.

aleaf92 · Apr 18, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

we all miss the old days of soul reaping thats for sure

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 18, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I think those here that are against changing soul reaping arn't aware that soul reaping is actually, secretly, very conditional. The "haha sucker, according to the order of deaths you only get 3 energy" crap is really hurting the necromancers ability to judge energy gains. GoLE always gives the full extent if you use it right. Expertise always lowers costs. Shouts, assuming you didnt get lost somewhere along the way, always returns effectively.

Soul reaping is the most conditional energy management line in the game. Someone once stated that Necromancers were elementalists without the energy pool (and attunements). This is quite true, as most of thier spells are quite costly. So...

I think Cthon's idea for soul reaping is right on. I would also add a skill to the soul reaping line to make the necromancers in pvp have a more reliable return from SR (since deaths dont occure nearly as often).

Summon Souls
0 Energy, 1 Cast, 0 Recharge
Signet. You gain up to X Energy (where X is your SR Attribute #) from your Grenth's Allowance. This skill is disabled for 10 seconds.

Ideally, I think that would place soul reaping at a good position for both PvE and PvP.

Also, since I've always enjoyed the bit of background information behind changes (such as Kephket):
Grenth has witnessed great travesties against his underworld by his own necrotic kind. Many necromancers have needlessly taken souls from the underworld to selfishly replenish essence they have not even lost. As a result, Grenth has now placed an allowance on the ammount of souls any necromancer may reap from the Underworld. [Insert explanation of new system here]

Yay!

DarkSpirit · Apr 18, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

In the best case, if something dies by the time you hit 0e because you spam your spells, then at 12 SR, you gain back 12e. And if this happens 3 times within 15s, you get back 12*3 = 36e each 15s which is very good.

Now if your necro just sits there and doesn't spam much so he is almost at full energy each time something dies, then of course the rest of the SR bonus would go into overflow but the fact remains...you are already at full energy when that happens!

When N/Rt starts becoming more effective ritualists than even primary Rits, something is wrong. (See the sabway build for proof of how soul reaping can be exploited to an absurb level

)

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...63&postcount=2)

Fuzzy Taco · Apr 18, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

i'm not one to come into these kinds of threads, but here goes nothing.

Soul Reaping is the clumsiest, flimsiest aspect of GW.

we all know that SR gave ANet a ton of leeway designing necros. we know that it used to be mega-unlimited energy, and now it's just a mess of awkward timers and energy lost to overflow.

Soul Reaping was a flawed concept to begin with.

Soul Reaping was ANet's easy button for necros. it allowed them to design a high energy cost class that was easily fueled by a decent investment in your primary attribute. then came the gimmicks, and, more importantly, the realization that one MM or minion bomber can top off a ton of blue bars on his team just by doing his job regularly. turns out heroes are damn good with minions, too.

there's no way we can possibly balance SR to make everyone happy, because it's such an unwieldy thing - amazingly powerful with one condition, nearly useless with another, utterly broken with yet another. keep it unrestricted, and we've seen what happens. obnoxiously overpowered gimmicks. restrict it, and it becomes a clunky, broken shadow of its former purpose, as Carinae and Chthon have pointed out.

How the hell do we fix it then?

damned if i know. sure, we could add some different restrictions, but then there will be the same problems as we have now - there will be something suboptimal about the restrictions, and we'll turn into this again. it's too late for an overhaul, which is what SR needs - with ANet's hands full with GW2 and other crap, i doubt we'll get a nice fix anytime soon.

give me a call when someone finds a way to balance Soul Reaping so that it's not unlimited energy in PvE, it isn't clunky, and doesn't blow in PvP. i'm sure it can be done, but the question is, will it?

P.S. thread effectively derailed.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 18, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Well, hopefully they'll read this thread and make a more balanced version of guildwars in gw2.

upier · Apr 18, 2008, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Well, hopefully they'll read this thread and make a more balanced version of guildwars in gw2.

Balanced version of SR sounds superb!
The problem is - you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Summon Souls
0 Energy, 1 Cast, 0 Recharge
Signet. You gain up to X Energy (where X is your SR Attribute #) from your Grenth's Allowance. This skill is disabled for 10 seconds.

Ideally, I think that would place soul reaping at a good position for both PvE and PvP.

But do not despair!
You aren't alone! Chthon is keeping you company!

Verek · Apr 18, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Balanced version of SR sounds superb!
The problem is - you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Apparently neither do A-NET, I'm sorry but as soon as they introduced the PVE only skills, and the 'Bear win button', any scintilla of balance was extinguished from PVE.

The SR timer was introduced to combat the Spirit Spam problem in PVP it had absolutely nothing to do with PVE.

The most posted solution, at the time, was not getting energy from Spirits and after weeks of procrastinating from A-Net, and in my opinion, an unwillingness to say that had got it wrong, this was finally introduced, but with a reworking of the timer.

I'm not that concerned with this system, but I do object to these changes being couched with the follow; 'we need balance in PVE.' It could be argued that we do, but as I said above, it doesn't seem that A-net do.